liak this if you agreeOriginally Posted by Lazy
(I liked)
liak this if you agree
(I liked)
"Remember me? The one you got your technique from?"
The worst possible response you could give when asked for proof of your statements.
A lockout that small is useless. Very rarely do people grief that close together nor would it actually hurt anybody to wait that long or make much of a difference. In order for it to be effective, the lockout would have to be so long that the lockout would hurt pvmers more than it helps prevent abuse in pvp.
Idiots are just like slinkies. It makes you smile when you push them down a flight of stairs.
[Zacyx]: i will perma bann u from MR
I've got 2 fixes to propose... mostly one that will make pvp fixers QQ... like usual. First one would be obvious: for balance as a whole make a check for fighting player vs fighting monster. After that, if fixer is engaged in pvp, no meep (or whatever restriction u wanna put on it in teams). Second proposition, if you REALLY don't like the first one, is give support profs (trader, doc, engi, mp) a nemisis nano to lock fixers out of an insta meep with 90% NR check. Will encourage profs that are underpowered to come out for towers because they will make enough of a difference to want to stick around.
Like this?
Too bad you have to cast it on them before they are already meeped.
Idiots are just like slinkies. It makes you smile when you push them down a flight of stairs.
[Zacyx]: i will perma bann u from MR
Not that hard if you previously know the fixer names. When I towers on MP I usually keep track of all fixers and docs names, so I can debuff then easier. The problem lies in the recharge time.
I also agree with the OP about meep wars being bad. There is a sugestion in MP forums to make a nano that kills the fixer if he meeps (or send then to hell :3)
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
No, he's a fixer. And he's apparently quite happy with the system as it is.
I'm also a fixer, and I recognize that this mechanic is incredibly broken.
An agent, or perhaps a trader, who is in stealth, waiting for a fixer to arrive, might, maybe, be able to get off a nano skill debuff and a root before the fixer can cast a 0.25 second meep. Good Luck with that.
I have actually considered setting up for a day or two of pvp when I hit 220/30/70, and the way I would do it? Cast my best shadowweb device. wear it, then put 8 points in notum rejector or whatever the absurd nano resist perk line is. Then load up on the first aid and dodge defense lines perks to give myself the best physical dodges I can, and the best first-aid healing possible.
So I would then have:
2000+ perception
2400+ runspeed
@12000 nano resist
shadowweb mkX and QL300 gear
All of the defensive stance perks
Good luck catching that. Doable, from ambush. Maybe. But if all the fixer wants to do is ring the bell and be an irritating schmuck, you're going to have a half a second from the time they see a red dot to the time that fixer is gone - if they have terrible reflexes.
*I'm not sure exactly how many points of the nano resist line I would be able to maintain while still being able to meep with the lowest skill meep. Probably not all the points - I'm not at home right now to look at perk data*
Sorry Lazy, if it were simple to catch a fixer, we'd be a whole hell of a lot harder to play in PVE as well as PVP. Not saying it cannot be done, but it's definitely NOT anything close to balanced.
For PVE, there is no need of any change. For tower combat, in order to prevent stupid griefing/trolling tricks from taking up ARK time and generally being annoying to everyone who ACTUALLY wants PVP, a nerf to meeping while within a tower control area is simple common sense. If the fixer wants to ring the bell of a tower site, they still can, but they don't have an instant out anymore, they might actually get caught. Maybe. If the fixer is either very poorly skilled, or the defenders are just really friggin good.
Last edited by cheopis; Jun 18th, 2013 at 04:13:49.
Probably NR3, while still being able to cast Team Grid Phreak.
220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee
Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP
Aye you might be able to squeak out NR5 while being able to cast Instant Encoding, if you built a fixer specifically to do exactly that, from the implants out. Maybe.
NR4 should be doable though, at 220/30/70 with some gear devoted to it.
NR3 is -1400 (doable)
NR4 is -2400 (not going to happen)
NR5 is -3500 (you are smoking something)
220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee
Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP
while i am not happy with meep wars i don't see it as a OMFG NERF THIS NAO issue that you people seem to think it is. i also don't agree with breaking one of the fixer's defining toolsets that has been ingame for almost 12 years.
or, y'know, you can work as a team with your mates to disable the fixer and then take care of the other people there with him.An agent, or perhaps a trader, who is in stealth, waiting for a fixer to arrive, might, maybe, be able to get off a nano skill debuff and a root before the fixer can cast a 0.25 second meep. Good Luck with that.
having actually run with an NR8 setup i can tell you it's rubbish. not having roots or HoTs means enfos can /follow you and kill you with autoattack alone.I have actually considered setting up for a day or two of pvp when I hit 220/30/70, and the way I would do it? Cast my best shadowweb device. wear it, then put 8 points in notum rejector or whatever the absurd nano resist perk line is. Then load up on the first aid and dodge defense lines perks to give myself the best physical dodges I can, and the best first-aid healing possible.
or the way it's always been done - mr1234 /tell %t lol u sukGood luck catching that. Doable, from ambush. Maybe. But if all the fixer wants to do is ring the bell and be an irritating schmuck, you're going to have a half a second from the time they see a red dot to the time that fixer is gone - if they have terrible reflexes.
NR8 doesn't stop perks and specials from landing.
probably nr3 in a nanoskill setup but that gimps you so much it's not worth it imo.*I'm not sure exactly how many points of the nano resist line I would be able to maintain while still being able to meep with the lowest skill meep. Probably not all the points - I'm not at home right now to look at perk data*
lolSorry Lazy, if it were simple to catch a fixer, we'd be a whole hell of a lot harder to play in PVE as well as PVP. Not saying it cannot be done, but it's definitely NOT anything close to balanced.
alternatively the defenders can grow a brain and spend literally 2 minutes planning and weighing their options instead of rushing in like chickens with their heads cut off hoping the fixer won't meep. c'mon man, it's not rocket science. it's a bloody fixer, we're not asking you to kill a muib'd enfo with rrfe and blcokers.For PVE, there is no need of any change. For tower combat, in order to prevent stupid griefing/trolling tricks from taking up ARK time and generally being annoying to everyone who ACTUALLY wants PVP, a nerf to meeping while within a tower control area is simple common sense. If the fixer wants to ring the bell of a tower site, they still can, but they don't have an instant out anymore, they might actually get caught. Maybe. If the fixer is either very poorly skilled, or the defenders are just really friggin good.
How about a nano called "Shoo Fly"....when cast causes all enemy fixers in a 50 m radias to be meeped (without thier team).
That made me smile.
Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
And this is the funny part. You are arguing against changes that you claim will create an issue which is completely unrelated to the problem.
Changing the way Meeps work, only in tower combat, would not in any way, shape, or form "break" the fixer toolset, aside from the one little bit that everyone with any common sense will recognize is already breaking the game for other players.
We're talking about a mechanic here that is *supposed* to be an emergency getaway, not a routine griefing tool.
If you are a fixer, and you plan on going to cause mischief at a tower site, whether solo or with a group, you and your group should have at least some chance of being caught.
Now, you're going to trot out the tired old "You can catch the fixer if you plan for it." silliness. Sure. If you plan for it. If you and your team choose to sit, doing absolutely nothing, in stealth, prepared to deal with an incoming fixer for the entire duration of your tower's pvp timeframe.
Now, gee, that sounds exciting. That's exactly who most people play PVP. So they can watch grass grow on the off chance that a fixer might show up.
What we essentially have here is a system where PVPers will be forced to NOT play the game in order to have any chance at all to catch fixers (and groups with fixers in them) on tower land, while potential attackers get to do whatever they want whenever they want, until a moment of their choosing.
If you add some sort of meeping nerf to tower combat, then you make it so that defensive rapid response is actually a viable option, rather than a lost cause. Without touching the meeping mechanism for PVE.
Stop trying to pretend that enforced boredom (AKA setting up planned ambushes that probably won't work to catch some random enemy fixer that might not show up) is a meaningful alternative to fixing meeping on tower land.
there's this really cool thing people do when their field is getting attacked. not sure if you've heard of it, but it works really well. it's called "scouting". this is when you send someone with good cc resist (adv/enf/fix/whatever) into the field to find out how many people are attacking and what their composition is. this will help you prepare for defense of that field and won't force you "watch grass grow on the off chance that a fixer might show up." this also means you won't have to set up "planned ambushes that probably won't work to catch some random enemy fixer that might not show up" since you know both who will show up and where.
in short: go pvp a bit before complaining about pvp mechanics.
anyway meep as it is today has been ingame since before the notum wars booster. it's intended as a "get out of jail free" card and that's exactly how it's being used: to remove the fixer and the team from active combat instantly. if you don't want the fixer and their team removed from active combat figure out a way of disabling the fixer.
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 13:58:24.
Oh, so now players are supposed to be able to time travel too? They scout now, in order to know half an hour ago that a fixer is going to show up, so they can set up an ambush to kill the fixer?
McFly, Mcfly? Where DID I put that Delorean?
The mechanism that is being abused here is the "bell ringing" mechanism, where a fixer or a team show up and smack your towers. The defenders then drop whatever they are doing to come and see if they can catch the fixer in the 0.025 seconds that they are actually present when an enemy dot appears.
If there's going to be any sensible discussion on meeping here Lazy, we need to argue things that can actually be compared reasonably. Please stop trying to argue from the point of view of a fixer or team that actually wants PVP, when the problem that needs to be fixed is the fixers or teams that DON'T want PVP, they just want to grief and annoy. If the fixer or his team that are attacking actually stay to make a fight out of it when they arrive, even if the enemy appears, then nobody is complaining much when they meep, because there has been time to smack/debuff the fixer.
You tell me how "scouting" is going to do a damn thing to stop "bell ringing" fixers and teams? That's even more silly than trying to ambush them. With an ambush, you have some small chance if the fixer is severely lagging, overconfident, incompetent, undergeared, or you're just full of awesomesauce. With scouting? If they are just there to ring the bell and annoy you, they will be gone before you even finish loading the map.
because they are meeping from the toon you're scouting with you've accomplished your goal (saving the field) and thwarted theirs.the effort of 1 person zoning exiting the regular grid into the heart of the tower field (literally 10 seconds of effort) is stopping the combined effort of 3-5 people getting together, entering fgrid, getting to the site, meeping and getting back into fgrid. (minutes of effort x 3-5 people). if they do this 3 times in a row it ammounts to one manhour worth of attack vs maybe 30 seconds worth of defense. if you can't be bothered to put in 30 seconds of effort to log a toon and zone it into the field to check who's attacking it, imo you don't deserve to keep that field. if they stay and fight instead of meeping you simply run/kite/tank/wait/lure them into a trap/whatever. the balance discussion forums is not the place for me to teach you proper NW tactics.
i understand it's frustrating to get a team together and show up at a field to defend from attackers that don't want to fight. that's why i'm telling you that you don't have to do that. we're humans not pavlov's dog. bell ringing =! pvp. stop salavating every time you see a tower attacked! message an approach the issue like a rational human being. we have many professions and almost all of them have tools for dealing with both tower harassment in the event of a griefing fixer and with fixers that wish to stand and fight. i will not support the breaking of an important fixer pvp and pvm toolset for as long as there are other options of solving this issue.
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 18:31:00.
So you just dropped out of your raid, or group, or whatever else you were doing at that exact moment for the opportunity to spend half a second staring at the fading dot on the screen where a fixer used to be.
Ya, that sure sounds exciting. PVP at it's best. No wonder why AO has such a huge and robust PVP community. Everyone likes showing up for PVP and not getting PVP. Especially when they just dropped out of doing something interesting.
PVP is not watching the fading dot of a meeping fixer, and none of your arguments can make it so. You keep making arguments based on the assumption that the fixers in question, or their teams, have any interest at all in PVP.
An anti-meeping implementation, restricted to tower sites, would have almost zero impact on legitimate PVP. Stop defending griefers.
don't need to drop waht you're doing. duallog a level 15 froob if you're that busy. jesus christ. do i REASLLY need to spell everything out for you? have you just started pvping yesterday?
if you can't be bothered to defend your towers it's not hard to find an org that's willing to take them off your hands. it's that simple. don't want to deal with griefers? you don't deserve to keep your field bonuses.Ya, that sure sounds exciting. PVP at it's best. No wonder why AO has such a huge and robust PVP community. Everyone likes showing up for PVP and not getting PVP. Especially when they just dropped out of doing something interesting.
if you don't want the fixer to meep, kill him. especiually if you want pvp so much, i'm sure you'll find many ways of accomplishing that.PVP is not watching the fading dot of a meeping fixer, and none of your arguments can make it so. You keep making arguments based on the assumption that the fixers in question, or their teams, have any interest at all in PVP.
alternatively we can stop trying to break a unique and defining fixer mechanic jsut because you can't be arsed to defend your field once in a while.An anti-meeping implementation, restricted to tower sites, would have almost zero impact on legitimate PVP. Stop defending griefers.
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 18:43:45.
Lazy, please stop using personal attacks to try to make your point. Those have no place here. If you cannot use sound logic, please stop discussing this.
Every profession is having to revisit their entire toolset in order to balance each other. Give actual reasons that an instant team meep should stay in the game. "Because we've always had it" is not a valid reason.
Idiots are just like slinkies. It makes you smile when you push them down a flight of stairs.
[Zacyx]: i will perma bann u from MR
Lazy, you continue to compare bottlecaps to elephant turds. Why would I dual log a L15 froob? So I can watch the fading red dot on a second instance of AO?
You keep saying that I'm trying to break a unique and defining fixer mechanic. I suppose I am. The mechanic I am attempting to break is the one that defines AO fixers as being hands-down the best PVP griefing class that has ever existed in any PVP MMO game.
The fixer toolset is fine, EXCEPT when it is used intentionally for griefing purposes with no intent to PVP.
You keep dodging around the fact that it is possible for a fixer or team to intentionally grief players. It's a frigging fact that they can. It's been indicated by the ARK team that they are aware of the tactic, and they will watch for it. But why not simply "fix" it?
Stop trying to redefine the conversation into something to do with people who actually want PVP, because the ones creating the problems are the ones that do NOT want to PVP, they only want to grief.
Without trying to bring in meaningless counterarguments about how PVP works, (because we aren't talking about PVP), can you explain, CLEARLY, why it is that griefing is a critical component of AO tower wars?
could you point out one personal attack? and no, asking if he has any experience in the matter being discussed is NOT a personal attack.
to answer this question we need to first look at what a fixer's role is. fixers are a mobility profession. they enhance a team's movespeed (both runspeed and ability to get around rk via fixer grid), reduce the movement of the enemy (via area snares) and specialize in hit and run tactics. (run in, pew pew and get out).Give actual reasons that an instant team meep should stay in the game. "Because we've always had it" is not a valid reason.
how exactly do you propose breaking our ability to break off combat and escape into the fixer grid not disabling a core fixer toolset?
would you consider not allowing enforcers to challenge in pvp? a doc not using BI in pvp? engies not using blockers in pvp? why does a fixer's only support tool seem to you so brokenly op that it needs to get nerfed into oblivion?
so that you know who is attacking your field and how many attackers there are. i thought this was obvious?
because it's not something that needs to be fixed because it's not broken.You keep saying that I'm trying to break a unique and defining fixer mechanic. I suppose I am. The mechanic I am attempting to break is the one that defines AO fixers as being hands-down the best PVP griefing class that has ever existed in any PVP MMO game.
The fixer toolset is fine, EXCEPT when it is used intentionally for griefing purposes with no intent to PVP.
You keep dodging around the fact that it is possible for a fixer or team to intentionally grief players. It's a frigging fact that they can. It's been indicated by the ARK team that they are aware of the tactic, and they will watch for it. But why not simply "fix" it?
if they don't want to pvp then you don't need to show up to defend since a griefing party cannot take out a fully planted field.Stop trying to redefine the conversation into something to do with people who actually want PVP, because the ones creating the problems are the ones that do NOT want to PVP, they only want to grief.
except you ARE talking about pvp unless towerwars suddenly changed from being pvp to being notpvp between your second paragraph and now.Without trying to bring in meaningless counterarguments about how PVP works, (because we aren't talking about PVP), can you explain, CLEARLY, why it is that griefing is a critical component of AO tower wars?
and yes. i actually explained why griefing is a critical component of AO tower wars here.
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 20:08:48.
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