The Rihwen and Carlo will no longer be nodrop.

[Raggy]

Id like to change the thread title to "Let's make cake eating requests".

I'd like to have zset and tigress both made 1h and remove rhand only tag/unique tags so I can have best of both worlds with my AS and defense with no swaps! While we are at it, can Rhiwen have equal hp to tank like Widowmaker? Give Mezz pet equal taunt to dogbot also.

The Rihwen 55687
Widowmaker Battle Drone 37125

Source.

Sure.


Thing is, MPs have their problems, but casting pets/nanos is not one of them. Which is what this thread is about.

[Psikie]

The Rihwen 55687
Widowmaker Battle Drone 37125

Source.

Sure.


Thing is, MPs have their problems, but casting pets/nanos is not one of them. Which is what this thread is about.

Silly rabbit there have been changes since then (7years ago) ...try again.

[Raggy]

Silly rabbit there have been changes since then (7years ago) ...try again.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=581988

One from 2 years ago stating the same.


Unless the change was a very recent patch, it has always been this way. The Widowmakers longevity comes from its 50%ish Reflect buffs the Engineer cast on it.

[Esssch]

The Rihwen 55687
Widowmaker Battle Drone 37125

Source.

Sure.


Thing is, MPs have their problems, but casting pets/nanos is not one of them. Which is what this thread is about.

I thought he was asking for Rihwen HP to be nerfed. It'd fit in with giving our mezz a taunt.

Anyways, this thread is about not being able to cast pets/nanos, but not wanting to equip the items that would make it possible. He wants AS in his setup, and he gave us nano skills to make that happen. However, now he wants those AS skills and the nano skills he gave up, while having no sacrifices.

Unless the change was a very recent patch, it has always been this way. The Widowmakers longevity comes from its 50% Reflect buff the Engineer casts on it.

Sounds like Widowmaker has 74k HP for everyone except NTs then, no?

[Psikie]

I thought he was asking for Rihwen HP to be nerfed. It'd fit in with giving our mezz a taunt.

No I should have been more specific for the soup nazi...HP/AC/AAD/Evades/Def rating etc that make widowmaker a better tanking pet. Or whatever hidden stats for the pets that allows Widowmaker to tank better than Rhiwen.

However I wouldnt care if I could only cast top meatball if I could get tigress/zset dual wield combo!

[Raggy]

I thought he was asking for Rihwen HP to be nerfed. It'd fit in with giving our mezz a taunt.

Anyways, this thread is about not being able to cast pets/nanos, but not wanting to equip the items that would make it possible. He wants AS in his setup, and he gave us nano skills to make that happen. However, now he wants those AS skills and the nano skills he gave up, while having no sacrifices.

Yet I see no issue with this. Lets say he doesn't use AS at all and just relies on his perks etc. He loses a significant part of his Alpha and suddenly all his damage is in the form of his easily alpha'd dog, kitable Widowmaker and long CD Pistol perks.

Engineers already suffer from abysmal nanoskill IP distribution and have some of the highest nanoskill costs for buffs and pets of the 3 pet classes. In comparison, my Atrox Crat has an infinitely easier time casting and buffing up than my Nanomage Engineer ever did, both in equal gear. And MPs already have a self-castable nanoskill increase of 8(!) hours, all the while almost all their nanoskills are bright green.

What this means is Engineers ALREADY have to hotswap items before making any PvP-required sacrifices, which frankly, is what made me swap to Crat. The only other prof ingame that suffers from this ridiculous on and off buffing system is Keepers. The fact it can take 2 runs of Decon to fully buff up both player and pets is astonishing and people attacking Engineer PvP power are completely missing this point.

Like all pet classes, Engineer pets are easily susceptible to Snares and LoS, but other pet classes don't have to hotswap 6-7 items to recast/rebuff their pets. This, is the problem.

I'm not saying MPs don't have their problems in other areas, or that Crats are too strong in others. But the juggling game which is Engineer buffing is stupid and makes the class boring to play and easily pushed out of PvP by people who Alpha the dog after death or get the Widow stuck in stupid places forcing the Engineer to /term it and try again.

Sounds like Widowmaker has 74k HP for everyone except NTs then, no?

Which is negated by anyone at capped runspeed and/or snares.

[Raggy]

No I should have been more specific for the soup nazi...HP/AC/AAD/Evades/Def rating etc that make widowmaker a better tanking pet. Or whatever hidden stats for the pets that allows Widowmaker to tank better than Rhiwen.

However I wouldnt care if I could only cast top meatball if I could get tigress/zset dual wield combo!

It's called a trimmer.

[Esssch]

Yet I see no issue with this. Lets say he doesn't use AS at all and just relies on his perks etc. He loses a significant part of his Alpha and suddenly all his damage is in the form of his easily alpha'd dog, kitable Widowmaker and long CD Pistol perks.

Engineers already suffer from abysmal nanoskill IP distribution and have some of the highest nanoskill costs for buffs and pets of the 3 pet classes. In comparison, my Atrox Crat has an infinitely easier time casting and buffing up than my Nanomage Engineer ever did, both in equal gear. And MPs already have a self-castable nanoskill increase of 8(!) hours, all the while almost all their nanoskills are bright green.

What this means is Engineers ALREADY have to hotswap items before making any PvP-required sacrifices, which frankly, is what made me swap to Crat. The only other prof ingame that suffers from this ridiculous on and off buffing system is Keepers. The fact it can take 2 runs of Decon to fully buff up both player and pets is astonishing and people attacking Engineer PvP power are completely missing this point.

Like all pet classes, Engineer pets are easily susceptible to Snares and LoS, but other pet classes don't have to hotswap 6-7 items to recast/rebuff their pets. This, is the problem.

I'm not saying MPs don't have their problems in other areas, or that Crats are too strong in others. But the juggling game which is Engineer buffing is stupid and makes the class boring to play and easily pushed out of PvP by people who Alpha the dog after death or get the Widow stuck in stupid places forcing the Engineer to /term it and try again.

All I see is "I don't like how engineers play". So roll a different profession. There's only 13 other ones to choose from, and engineers have only had 10 years since SL came out to discover they didn't like these mechanics.

Or don't push for reduced requirements, but instead push for the swap to tradeskill based nanos so engis can have their 8 hour self buff too. Lowering requirements is a waste of developer time, especially when the game has much more pressing needs than "wah, I have to swap some items because I gave up nanoskills in my build, and it's just now bothering me after 12 years"

[Psikie]

It's called a trimmer.

Really? Is that what it is? So what is it when you take unbuffed rhiwen vs unbuffed widowmaker and widowmaker kills rhiwen? Even with all the extra hp. Just curious how you explain that.

[Raggy]

All I see is "I don't like how engineers play". So roll a different profession. There's only 13 other ones to choose from, and engineers have only had 10 years since SL came out to discover they didn't like these mechanics.

Or don't push for reduced requirements, but instead push for the swap to tradeskill based nanos so engis can have their 8 hour self buff too. Lowering requirements is a waste of developer time, especially when the game has much more pressing needs than "wah, I have to swap some items because I gave up nanoskills in my build, and it's just now bothering me after 12 years"

But nobody gives up nanoskills in their build on an Engineer, the base nanoskill requirements for most of the Engineer buffs is just down right awful.

Highest Crat Nanoskill Requirement: Empowered Divided Ego - 2001BM/1997SI
Highest MP Nanoskill Requirement: Improved Instill With Malign Intent - 2209MC/2109BM (Reduce that to 2069MC/1969BM without Mochams)
Highest Engineer Nanoskill Requirement: Improved Isochronal Sloughing Combat Field - 2147MC/2147TS

This is before item slot sacrifices that allow the Engineer to do damage outside of perks/easily kited pets. You're forgetting that both MP and Crat has a nuke to cast during the fight while Engineers do not and they have to make up for this loss by using AS.

Really? Is that what it is? So what is it when you take unbuffed rhiwen vs unbuffed widowmaker and widowmaker kills rhiwen? Even with all the extra hp. Just curious how you explain that.

Not entirely sure what Widowmaker vs Rhiwen has anything to do with eithers tanking viability but it's probably down to the higher AR of the Widowmaker that makes it do more damage.

[Esssch]

But nobody gives up nanoskills in their build on an Engineer, the base nanoskill requirements for most of the Engineer buffs is just down right awful.

Highest Crat Nanoskill Requirement: Empowered Divided Ego - 2001BM/1997SI
Highest MP Nanoskill Requirement: Improved Instill With Malign Intent - 2209MC/2109BM (Reduce that to 2069MC/1969BM without Mochams)
Highest Engineer Nanoskill Requirement: Improved Isochronal Sloughing Combat Field - 2147MC/2147TS

Nuh uh. You want to compare nano requirements, compare nano requirements. MPs have the highest, engineers give up Right Hand and Eye symbs for AS, neglecting nano skills. Don't bring in this nonsense of "Oh, but you have Mochams." Mochams aren't self-only, they can be cast on engineers too. If you really want Mochams that badly, roll an MP and see what being truly underpowered feels like. I'll expect a fresh wave of QQs once you hit 220 on that MP, and you'll go running back to your engineer after realizing how good they really have it.

[Raggy]

Nuh uh. You want to compare nano requirements, compare nano requirements. MPs have the highest, engineers give up Right Hand and Eye symbs for AS, neglecting nano skills. Don't bring in this nonsense of "Oh, but you have Mochams." Mochams aren't self-only, they can be cast on engineers too. If you really want Mochams that badly, roll an MP and see what being truly underpowered feels like. I'll expect a fresh wave of QQs once you hit 220 on that MP, and you'll go running back to your engineer after realizing how good they really have it.

But I have a 220 MP and the only place they really fall down is team viability. Zset still remains to be one of the the best defensive items ingame. Tigress still hits like a boat with AS. Nukes could do with being updated, SS is still pants on head ridiculous on its lockout, updated durations on debuffs would probably be nice too.

Other than that, they really are not as bad as people make out.

The whole argument was from a self-buffed perspective, talking about the sacrifices needed BY THE PLAYER to maintain PvP viability and examining the difference between the 3 pet profs in regard to hotswapping needed to remain PvP viable while casting top nanos.

But anyway, where am I going to find Mochams in decon? Everybody knows that MPs don't PvP because they are so nerfest

[Lazy]

But I have a 220 MP and the only place they really fall down is team viability. Zset still remains to be one of the the best defensive items ingame. Tigress still hits like a boat with AS. Nukes could do with being updated, SS is still pants on head ridiculous on its lockout, updated durations on debuffs would probably be nice too.

the biggest issue is when you wear zset your opponents die of old age before you kill them and when you wear tigress you're about as durable as a wet paper bag. i'm sure putting the aad of the zset onto a creation bow with about half the crit of the tigress would go a long way to making mp's more viable and not being forced into all-offence or all-defense setups.

[Raggy]

the biggest issue is when you wear zset your opponents die of old age before you kill them and when you wear tigress you're about as durable as a wet paper bag. i'm sure putting the aad of the zset onto a creation bow with about half the crit of the tigress would go a long way to making mp's more viable and not being forced into all-offence or all-defense setups.

That wouldn't be the case if MP nukes were updated with new damage templates. Maybe throw a little bit of +nanodamage in there somehow. And make them useable alongside SS/reduce SS lockout.

[Psikie]

i'm sure putting the aad of the zset onto a creation bow with about half the crit of the tigress would go a long way to making mp's more viable

That wouldn't be the case if MP nukes were updated with new damage templates. Maybe throw a little bit of +nanodamage in there somehow. And make them useable alongside SS/reduce SS lockout.

These are both ideas along the lines of whats wrong with FC in first place. Increasing the power creep of prof A to catch up with prof B. Not that I would oppose either or both ideas, I think continual power creep eventually leads to game breaking +10 vorporal swords of mountain slaying to one up the last power upgrade which is bad. Some of the game breakers need to be reduced not add more into the mix.

[Seoin]

i'm sure putting the aad of the zset onto a creation bow with about half the crit of the tigress would go a long way to making mp's more viable and not being forced into all-offence or all-defense setups.

Would much rather see each options weaknesses made up for than introduce one new cookie cutter weapon to replace them both. Give mps limber and more ability to damage people with nanos, so they can still have some def with bow and some killing power with shield. I'm sure it could use fine tuning but it's a better start than forcing them to have only one weapon choice.

[Esssch]

The whole argument was from a self-buffed perspective, talking about the sacrifices needed BY THE PLAYER to maintain PvP viability and examining the difference between the 3 pet profs in regard to hotswapping needed to remain PvP viable while casting top nanos.

Then it's already a flawed comparison, as MPs aren't PvP viable.


BOOM

[Psikie]

The whole argument was from a self-buffed perspective, talking about the sacrifices needed BY THE PLAYER to maintain PvP viability and examining the difference between the 3 pet profs in regard to hotswapping needed to remain PvP viable while casting top nanos.

It might be important to note that MP's actually have it worse as far as swaps go. Which forces them to usually pick a setup and stick with it. For example being able to swap from zset to tigress would require 3 alba hud/utils, chest, gloves, and possibly sleeves. Not something that is slightly convienant during decon or mid fight. Not to mention if we want AS imps like the engineers on this thread seem to want to keep equiped.

[Wyoming]

Wait, wait. When SL first came out, weren't MPs godly because their pets had like, double-triple the AR they have now?
Surely just giving Rihwen more than it's petty (What is it, 1.3k AR) would bring MPs closer to the other profs - since they have roots from the mezzpet and can stop someone from healing...

[Esssch]

Wait, wait. When SL first came out, weren't MPs godly because their pets had like, double-triple the AR they have now?
Surely just giving Rihwen more than it's petty (What is it, 1.3k AR) would bring MPs closer to the other profs - since they have roots from the mezzpet and can stop someone from healing...

Yes, and it was considered hugely overpowered. However, Rihwen came with AI. Pet professions didn't even have 220 pets when SL came out. Unless you count crat charms.

And it's ~2.2k base AR at the moment, with a buff for 500 AAO and an extra 300 AAO for 2hb Staff users (Have to have the Aggressive Staff of Julian Redfire equipped).

Meanwhile, Widowmaker starts out at ~2.6k AR, M-60 starts out at ~3.5k, with an extra 446 AAO, 300 AAO, and 280 AAO. So higher base than Rihwen, 2 pets attacking...and all before even counting in trimmers!