for how loong does funcom think we can play without changes?

[Psikie]

It doesn't matter who's able to put it on, but how powerful they are or could be when they get it on in a competently-made setup.

I honestly don't understand how he "put his foot in his own mouth."

Although it shouldn't need explaining, I will do you a solid so you don't put your foot in your mouth also. First I will recap the post...

And what does this randomness prove? A combination of 3 envy users is going to be more powerful than 3 random Tro users.

Guess its time to nerf that OP envy.

Envy FA is not an automatic hit nor does it cap all the time for the toons that "can" equip it. Tro pistol AS is automatic hit and can either cap or crit cap every time it's fired off. So in an attempt to be cute the post is misleading and wrong in the worst possible way. Suggesting that a possible hitting weapon special is better than gauranteed hitting weapon special is silly in a pvp scenerio. 3 AS + 3 reg hits OR 3 nukes OR 3 perks OR 3 pet hits = dead.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Adv is the only pistol user who can use tro with out VE.

wrong.

In this thread, people explain how they think you need to use a targeting scope to get yourself out of oe, not to get aimed shot multiplier and 11s recharge.

I have an 12 second recharge on my engi with no TS.

The probability of hitting a 30% capping hit is pretty variable for with the TS and without. But, in most cases the AR makes a bigger difference because the AS's are still going to do decent damage.

and apparently, aimed shot always caps 30% health. Especially with a weapon that has 225 maximum damage.

So 336 AS skill is going to make it cap everytime if it wasn't capping before?

See Gatesters AS testing for reasoning as to why you're failing.

I laughed, considering pretty much everything you said was incorrect.

So, when I say I "honestly dont' know" something, I'm actually incorrect... so I actually do know something?

Thanks! But I don't need to hear it from you to be validated

Except for people who want to use full auto. You know, that special that you claim caps your martial artist nearly 100% of the time. The one that troa'ler debuffs -2000 of. and just because a mod is there doesn't mean that it's necessary for your character's setup to PvP with. None of your logic makes any sense.

Yes, except for full auto. You'll notice fixers/ soldiers were neither of the profs listed which were made OP by arrival of the troaler. Nice one on picking that one up. Really gives us confidence you're reading the posts.

FYI, I don't believe I have ever said that FA caps on MA 100% of the time. It doesn't take many bullets to cap on an MA though, probably 4 bullets would do it, so it's certainly possible.

I have no idea what you're talking about with your little bit of Nononosense language:

"The one that troa'ler debuffs -2000 of. and just because a mod is there doesn't mean that it's necessary for your character's setup to PvP with. None of your logic makes any sense."

What are you refering to?

[Obtena]

No other single item can be put into the hands of any random 3 toons and kill anyone in pvp regardeless of any other factors.

... with the exception of any equivalent AS weapon the 'support' professions were using before AS pistol was introduced ingame.

AS pistol isn't the problem, AS is.

[Psikie]

... with the exception of any equivalent AS weapon the 'support' professions were using before AS pistol was introduced ingame.

AS pistol isn't the problem, AS is.

There are no "equivalent" AS weapons in game that any support prof can equip.

[Raggy]

There are no "equivalent" AS weapons in game that any support prof can equip.

Craphander
Arbalest
Tiger MK6

?

[MassDebater]

Envy FA is not an automatic hit nor does it cap all the time for the toons that "can" equip it. Tro pistol AS is automatic hit and can either cap or crit cap every time it's fired off. So in an attempt to be cute the post is misleading and wrong in the worst possible way. Suggesting that a possible hitting weapon special is better than gauranteed hitting weapon special is silly in a pvp scenerio. 3 AS + 3 reg hits OR 3 nukes OR 3 perks OR 3 pet hits = dead.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

Envy is one handed. What do you think they use in the other hand?

wrong.
I have an 12 second recharge on my engi with no TS.

You have 1600 Aimed Shot without VE?

Or 1986 if you used VE?

I suggest you delete that post incase a GM with knowledge of endgame pvp bans you.

[wonderland]

Although it shouldn't need explaining, I will do you a solid so you don't put your foot in your mouth also. First I will recap the post...



Envy FA is not an automatic hit nor does it cap all the time for the toons that "can" equip it. Tro pistol AS is automatic hit and can either cap or crit cap every time it's fired off. So in an attempt to be cute the post is misleading and wrong in the worst possible way. Suggesting that a possible hitting weapon special is better than gauranteed hitting weapon special is silly in a pvp scenerio. 3 AS + 3 reg hits OR 3 nukes OR 3 perks OR 3 pet hits = dead.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

hur dur if you were using your brain you would have figured that he meant onehander in the other hand, because when someone says they're using an envy in PvP, 99.9% of the time they are using the onehander in the other.

I mean, you knew that, right?

[wonderland]

I have an 12 second recharge on my engi with no TS.

The probability of hitting a 30% capping hit is pretty variable for with the TS and without. But, in most cases the AR makes a bigger difference because the AS's are still going to do decent damage.

I died inside.

So 336 AS skill is going to make it cap everytime if it wasn't capping before?

See Gatesters AS testing for reasoning as to why you're failing.

I'm not "failing," because I see ingame that this is not true. Because I go ingame to do PvP, I do not need to look at a forum thread's "Aimed shot testing" garbage. Real experience > some garbage forum test. Running around without a vision enhancer and trying to do use any aimed shot weapon is just a bad idea. No aimed shot has an assurance to cap with a vision enhancer, but trying to use one without is asking for it. I don't like winning off what my rolls are, I like more consistency. So you put on a targeting scope to at least try to increase the consistency. Even aimed shot with a ql250 ofab tiger with 1754 aimed shot doesn't do much damage around 25% to 35%ish of the time, but it's a poopton a lot higher than the troa'ler.

But, anyway, that was blatant sarcasm directed towards you and the rest of the people who like to try to act like because you have "11s aimed shot" that you have even a high chance of capping it at 30% every hit.

Yes, except for full auto. You'll notice fixers/ soldiers were neither of the profs listed which were made OP by arrival of the troaler. Nice one on picking that one up. Really gives us confidence you're reading the posts.

Here, let me requote your "Anyone." It doesn't matter what they said, because what you said anyone.

The reality is, is that OH is poor alternative to troaler, and, anyone who can afford to use it, I'd say 95/100 does use it (there are a few who do not... but there aren't that many). The OH needs a buttload of % weap range to be in the same league as troa ler, so it stands to reason that if you need to compensate AR/HP/AR/add dmg before you even start to compare the damage/damage range, you're looking at an inferior weapon.

I'm pretty sure when you're talking about the only people that would ever use the onehander, you'd only ever be putting it in the context of professions that would be using it with a onehanded full auto weapon, right? Like fixers and soldiers? Because, you know, that's the whole point of using a onehander. Any support profession could just use any of the other million, stronger aimed shot weapons in the game, because I do not think a bureaucrat or engineer is going to try to use full auto in PvP. Are we talking some sort of fantasy context here, or are we talking about what really happens in PvP?

FYI, I don't believe I have ever said that FA caps on MA 100% of the time. It doesn't take many bullets to cap on an MA though, probably 4 bullets would do it, so it's certainly possible.

I do remember all of your complaints back in 2010, when you lied and said that soldiers could kill your martial artist within 5 seconds, and fixers were perking you. I remember the time that you said "Martial artists were one of the worst professions ingame" also. I heard enough "full auto caps my martial artist."

I have no idea what you're talking about with your little bit of Nononosense language:

"The one that troa'ler debuffs -2000 of. and just because a mod is there doesn't mean that it's necessary for your character's setup to PvP with. None of your logic makes any sense."

What are you refering to?

Maybe you should read the troa'ler's mods. Because you'd be losing it, doesn't mean you'd need to compensate it to get any benefit out of anything else.

http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?pa...0000&id=281506

[Marinegent]

The only issue with troa'ler is that it came to the game while also bringing 80% check perks and for many professions who were already WAY stronger than the rest of the professions in the game (crat/engi/advy) and gives people who had an actual weakness in their kit (doctors low offensive power) a free pass to a very powerful kit across the board now.

[MassDebater]

They made pistol perks 80% because they realised no one ever landed them.

[Redbar]

I like how the AS pistol is way overpowered because a group of 3 people can quickly kill one guy.

(unless, of course, he's an engineer, or a soldier with AMS up, or someone with quite high HP, or he has recently teamed an engineer)

[Sateenkaari]

I really dont see a point on QQing about MR or Troa'Ler, and still missing other parts of the "failure desing", like, enf 1hb/1he lines, shades caress, what else, MR and Troa'Ler, yes they are a bit over others, but either of those arent really that easy to gain without sacrifices. Its still choices if you want to be a fast gank machine without much of defs (unless you are a atrox shade or pistol advy, or troa'ler crat) but those 2 things arent really the gamebreakers, AS once per 13-14s takes too much time, with current stims and HDs shouldnt be too hard to overheal it and MR, well, yes, you get to perk with it, even those people who are otherwise unperkable, but its only the ~10seconds with 2minutes lockdown, and not forgetting the debuff after the use. Docs with Troa'Ler are nasty to take down + they got a lot of DD, yes, but tbh, I've seen lots of better docs with those oldies but goldies dread pistols (since they dont have to nerf every this and that to get their AS as fast as possible, to really gain a profit of it).

What else?

[Psikie]

Craphander
Arbalest
Tiger MK6

?

hur dur if you were using your brain you would have figured that he meant onehander in the other hand

I had no idea those weapons had same fantastic min-max (crit) dmg as Tro pistol, what patch did that happen in?

[Marinegent]

I had no idea those weapons had same fantastic min-max (crit) dmg as Tro pistol, what patch did that happen in?

Tro doesn't have amazing damage, it's range means it rarely caps. Its just mid-level AS's all day, sacrificing potential for consistency.

The issue with pistols isnt troa'ler, the issue is the retarded perkline that needs to be 100% checks like most other damage perk lines in the game, or if everyone feels 80% is appropriate then we need to start shifting the rest of the 100% check perk lines down to make things fair.

[MassDebater]

Tro doesn't have amazing damage, it's range means it rarely caps. Its just mid-level AS's all day, sacrificing potential for consistency.

The issue with pistols isnt troa'ler, the issue is the retarded perkline that needs to be 100% checks like most other damage perk lines in the game, or if everyone feels 80% is appropriate then we need to start shifting the rest of the 100% check perk lines down to make things fair.

I agree that sub 100% def checks for people with 2.5-3.5k attack skill for those perks is retarded and should be changed.

Should we start at Special Forces or SMG mastery?

[wonderland]

I like how the AS pistol is way overpowered because a group of 3 people can quickly kill one guy.

(unless, of course, he's an engineer, or a soldier with AMS up, or someone with quite high HP, or he has recently teamed an engineer)

Or is a trader, nanotechnician, enforcer, doctor, anyone with a cocoon, or just someone who's responsive.

and every aimed shot caps, with two to three autoattacks landing afterwards.

I had no idea those weapons had same fantastic min-max (crit) dmg as Tro pistol, what patch did that happen in?

I'm not really looking to explain literally everything in the game to you (Because that seems to be the direction that it's going) so I'll just refer to MassDebater saying pretty much the exact same thing I was about to say.

I mean, I really have no idea where you're going with this, but whatever. Considering you seem to be trying to change your argument as if the person isn't going to be dual wielding the envy with a onehander, and that the damage doesn't count or something. I can't really tell, honestly

Lets inject some reality.

3 Envy Fixers or Soldiers is going to have 3 bursts and 3 full autos from a 408 max damage weapon and 3.2k-3.5k AR, 3 fling shots with 2k~ AR on 121 max damage wep, and 3 aimed shots on a 121 max damage wep with the chance of critting for 584+ to max damage. These profs have lots of 1s execution perks and perk stuns.

These profs have high add damage and high AS skill.

3 Tro using eng or crat or doc is going to have 3 bursts and flings from a 348 max damage weapon. These profs have between 2.5 and 3.1k AR. They will also do 3 aimed shots from a 225 max damage weapon with the chance to crit just 100+. They possess no perk stuns, their main 80% perks require either 3 second attack time or chaining quick and double shot.
They generally have between 1630-1720 aimed shot and low add damage.


In reality the aimed shot from both groups will average about 2.5k. Now make up the other half damage and you see which comes out on top.

[Psikie]

Considering you seem to be trying to change your argument as if the person isn't going to be dual wielding the envy with a onehander, and that the damage doesn't count or something. I can't really tell, honestly

I honestly don't know where your bandwagon logic posts come from. I don't know why you keep talking about envy/onehander combos. I don't where you are trying to take this thread. You seem to be suggesting the craphander is better than Tro pistol. That alone is reason enough for me to ignore you.

You are entitled to your own opinion I suppose but "I" think Tro is a powerful weapon with AS that is too easy to use. "I" think it's too easy for any prof (except shade) to equip an AS weapon. AS was never intended to be used by a good majority of profs that currently "can" use it. The fact that even some melee profs "can" use is what "I" have a problem with.

[Le-Quack]

wtb some changes :/

[Obtena]

"I" think it's too easy for any prof (except shade) to equip an AS weapon. AS was never intended to be used by a good majority of profs that currently "can" use it. The fact that even some melee profs "can" use is what "I" have a problem with.

That's a nice ideal but from a practical POV, that approach doesn't work. It never has. I think you would come up really short if you were going to limit access to AS then to try to suggest a build for pistol users that would be effective in PVP. There is a reason this weapon exists and it's a reasonable one ... it allows pistol users access to a PVP weapon supported by their toolset. Previously, they had none. It's the same reason traders got Silverback, AFTER Means told them they wouldn't get another AS shotgun. It's just nonsense to give professions preference for weapons but not give them weapons suitable for PVP in that weapon line. It's still a shame FC can't come up with some grenade weapons for engi's in PVP.

The original intent in AO is that anyone can use any weapon (excluding locked weapons of course). While this idea is severely diminished by the perk concept, it shouldn't prevent players from using a AS weapon on any prof I want because of player sensibilities. If that's the argument, it's just not good enough. The professions currently using AS pistol do so because it's their primary supported weapon choice available for them in PVP. It was absolutely stupid that people had to resort to weapons not supported by their toolsets to be effective in PVP. If AS pistol itself is a problem, the solution is to offer AS pistol-users choice with other suitable, supported PVP weapons.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

That's a nice ideal but from a practical POV, that approach doesn't work. It never has. I think you would come up really short if you were going to limit access to AS then to try to suggest a build for pistol users that would be effective in PVP. There is a reason this weapon exists and it's a reasonable one ... it allows pistol users access to a PVP weapon supported by their toolset. Previously, they had none. It's the same reason traders got Silverback, AFTER Means told them they wouldn't get another AS shotgun. It's just nonsense to give professions preference for weapons but not give them weapons suitable for PVP in that weapon line. It's still a shame FC can't come up with some grenade weapons for engi's in PVP.

The original intent in AO is that anyone can use any weapon (excluding locked weapons of course). While this idea is severely diminished by the perk concept, it shouldn't prevent players from using a AS weapon on any prof I want because of player sensibilities. If that's the argument, it's just not good enough. The professions currently using AS pistol do so because it's their primary supported weapon choice available for them in PVP. It was absolutely stupid that people had to resort to weapons not supported by their toolsets to be effective in PVP. If AS pistol itself is a problem, the solution is to offer AS pistol-users choice with other suitable, supported PVP weapons.

Of course, if you think about it logically, you'd realise this is a far cry from the truth.

The truth is, is that weapons, specials per weapon, and damage ranges were intricately thought out for vanilla AO. Special timers, cluster placement, and conflicting modifiers abounded creating balance. Fore example: you can have nice rifle AR, or faster/better aimed shot... but not both. You can have Assault rifle AR, but not full auto, etc. You can have MA skill, but not max evades or max inits. etc.

This system obviously fell down when symbiants were introduced, and combined AI armours were introduced.

But, it's only got worse since some (more recent) patches - such as the xan traoler and the 80% pistol perk patch.

Obviously, the original intent of the AO developer was that pistols were NEVER supposed to be supported by aimed shot specials. Pistoleros were supposed to be FLING shot users, and occasionally burst, and some daredevils could even try full auto. But to say " It was absolutely stupid that people had to resort to weapons not supported by their toolsets to be effective in PVP." is absolute balderdash. It's absolutely NOT stupid. It's absolutely REQUIRED, in the context of vanilla AO - and by extension, current AO, that to try to use an UNSUPPORTED skill for the specific purpose of using THAT skill in PVP, that an unsupported weapon and unconventional setup may need to be employed.

Indeed, I would say that was not only the original intent of the developers, but what made AO unique.