what if ams cooldown gave 10-15% reflect for the 10-15 first seconds?

[Seoin]

Tell me what profession you are not able to either kill or survive a soldier on and I can tell you how to either survive or kill the soldier using that profession. It's really simple as the soldier profession is devoid of survival tools itself.

I haven't followed the however many pages of the soldier vs enfo thread, so sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense to me, but aren't you against soldiers having 3k defense, saying that it's too high? Even considering the sacrifices you have to make as a soldier to reach it. And now this post.

If soldiers are so defenseless and any profession is guaranteed to be able to survive, if not kill them, if they're smart enough to run away/CC, then why are you against soldiers having the option to use a defensive setup that probably just borderlines on viable evades?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

How does the law of balance apply to players who die to soldiers because they choose to die to soldiers?

That's easy. The law of balance dictates that the soldier dies because he's expended his perks/defences on the next opponent.

Alternately, should the soldier not win that fight, the original opponent would have expended his defences and likely die on the next opponent.

In either case, the law of averages applies, in a microcosm of a sample.

In reality, it doesn't matter. If the soldier wins a few fights in a row, or vice versa, it's likely that the alternate could also be true, thereby justifying the law of averages.

The only time this wouldn't be the case is where skill and or equipment/buffs or teaming vastly favours one opponent over the other. For example, if the soldier continually attempted to fight two opponents at once, I'd be hard pressed to say the odds are ever in his favour.

Likewise, however, if the soldier teamed with a doctor, or whatever else, I'd say if would be a slim chance that the single opponent could dispatch the soldier and his team mate.

Everything else being equal, comes down to probability.

The alternate case, though, and I sense this is what you are attempting to get at, is when one player uses every advantage possible (strong person) against someone of lesser skill and who can't be "assed" to make use of the inherent advantages of the class (weak person).

In this case, if the strong person is the soldier, then none of your arguments stand. If the weak person is the soldier, we can expect nothing less than to be walked all over every fight.

If you attempt to kill a soldier and fail, that was a choice you made. A soldier cannot CC players and force them to remain in combat. A soldier cannot outrun most professions and chase them down to kill them. A soldier cannot guarantee a kill simply because he engages in combat.

A soldier can use viable and proven methods to dispatch his opponents in seconds.

Not to be retarded or anything, but I remember several times on my MA running into one of the BS nodes and Ipewpewu I think would gank me before I even got an evade perk up. Thats just an example, and while I'm not proud of saying that, I was impressed by his swapping skill, because he did it enough times that I actually got annoyed.

Ma, perhaps, is the weakest exception, and possibly one of the only profs who could be completely annihilated before even getting in range of a soldier.

Unfortunately, it's that experience that colours my perception of soldiers - so, be mindful thats the overarching memory.

I have other memories though, more recently, on my engi where I wtf roll a sold in seconds. But, I don't think those memories were as jarring. I know Engies are extraordinarily brutal against soldiers, so this doesn't seem to be a 'remarkable' experience.

Getting ganked before I can even get DOF up, or brawl landing, though, on my MA feels like just... I dunno, but, hit by a truck is what comes to mind.


Lets see though, I've played advy, engi and MA primarily, a bit of Sold, a bit of keeper, a bit of doctor, a bit of enforcer.

I don't think I've ever seen a soldier havign a hard time in BS. In war, clearly you've got a raid force with you so that irrelevant.

In BS, then, hug the telporters, and only use AMS when needed, gank/swap as necessary to keep opponents on their toes.

[Gatester]

I haven't followed the however many pages of the soldier vs enfo thread, so sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense to me, but aren't you against soldiers having 3k defense, saying that it's too high? Even considering the sacrifices you have to make as a soldier to reach it. And now this post.

If soldiers are so defenseless and any profession is guaranteed to be able to survive, if not kill them, if they're smart enough to run away/CC, then why are you against soldiers having the option to use a defensive setup that probably just borderlines on viable evades?

Thinking about it it's not the easiest thing to explain. Every profession should be able to hit and damage a tank, however a tank should be able to mitigate more damage than any other profession as well. It's the whole point of being a tank in my opinion. When something like an evades setup becomes viable for a tank it indicates a basic problem with the profession design; sacrificing mitigaiton or survival for evades is viable.

The reason evades are viable, even at the expense of reflects or max health, is that those evades can reduce more damage from players than what they lost from their tanking toolset would.

The addition of practical levels of evades on a tank also makes it more difficult to justify necessary improvements. If enforcers and soldiers both are taking every hit then they are also justified in reducing that damage the most. It is part of the reason why I want enforcers to lose their healing from the Mongo lines as well. I never want to see a soldier or enforcer with a properly designed tanking toolset also being able to evade my perks or evade my damage. I have seen what evades can do already, especially in mass PVP or PVE with lots of support, and quite frankly it is too much.


In the end it would be an exchange, though, and not a straight up nerf. I would not touch soldier survival in any way without improving it where it is needed first.

[Gatester]

Lets see though, I've played advy, engi and MA primarily, a bit of Sold, a bit of keeper, a bit of doctor, a bit of enforcer.

I don't think I've ever seen a soldier havign a hard time in BS. In war, clearly you've got a raid force with you so that irrelevant.

In BS, then, hug the telporters, and only use AMS when needed, gank/swap as necessary to keep opponents on their toes.

The MA thing sounds like me on my enforcer where I get killed because my damage perks are queued up and I can't use my cocoon, booster, or BR There are always times where not being prepared or not being fast enough get you killed, but you can die to almost any profession from that.

Soldiers can be deadly offensively, that is not so much of an issue for me. I also do not want to use tactics like teleporter hopping in BS, I seen enough players do that and I cannot stand it.


You probably have to PVP as an omni/neutral sold against clan and be outnumbered to get a real feel for how annoying it can be. Constantly CC'd by gimps and then ganged up on by a larger force that waited out your AMS, or an entire side kiting through the BS lifts rather than trying to fight you and eventually getting away because you are slower than they are. You get really irritated when you almost kill someone who starts to run off, and instead of you finishing him off the other players are spamming roots and snares on you letting him get away. You switch targets because you have to and the other one comes back fully healed.

I end up just sitting down next to a console in BS and killing the ones that don't make a b-line for the nearest exit.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I end up just sitting down next to a console in BS and killing the ones that don't make a b-line for the nearest exit.

I guess this is what I was trying to get at when I say pick your fights.

If you're still collecting kills.... no complaints?

[Marinegent]

Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times, this is significant enough to drastically reduce perk/regular damage but specials will still cap and soldiers at this rating of reflect are killable by dps classes) and AMS 1/2/3/4/5 should be a very short emergency boost, (+10% on TMS) +11/12/13/14/15% reflects for 10-15 seconds, usable as an emergency defense like cocoon,etc.

Soldiers defense hole is just too large and the unkillable reflect number (anything over about 84% at endgame which is AMS3 + ofab back or better) simply lasts too long. Normalizing this unkillable effect into a true emergency tool and having the soldier defense hole be drastically reduced is the solution soldiers need to combat the majority of their weaknesses (except nanoresist and lack of CC).

[Gatester]

I guess this is what I was trying to get at when I say pick your fights.

If you're still collecting kills.... no complaints?

Kinda, its just so annoying I literally feel worse off than a melee profession when it comes to being kited and rooted/snared. When a decent twink runs away and the noobs are the one's trying to kill me too, it can literally set me off. I won't even attack undergeared players or most of the one's below 190 if they don't attack me first.

I want to kill those "twinks" that are farming the noobs and avoiding the skilled players, but I just can't sometimes, and then they can come back later and kill me because my tools are down or something similarly situational. I bet it's even worse for a 220 soldier.

Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times, this is significant enough to drastically reduce perk/regular damage but specials will still cap and soldiers at this rating of reflect are killable by dps classes) and AMS 1/2/3/4/5 should be a very short emergency boost, (+10% on TMS) +11/12/13/14/15% reflects for 10-15 seconds, usable as an emergency defense like cocoon,etc.

Soldiers defense hole is just too large and the unkillable reflect number (anything over about 84% at endgame which is AMS3 + ofab back or better) simply lasts too long. Normalizing this unkillable effect into a true emergency tool and having the soldier defense hole be drastically reduced is the solution soldiers need to combat the majority of their weaknesses (except nanoresist and lack of CC).

With OMHH fixed maybe a bit lower on the static reflects, but still looks so much better than it currently is.

[wonderland]

Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times, this is significant enough to drastically reduce perk/regular damage but specials will still cap and soldiers at this rating of reflect are killable by dps classes) and AMS 1/2/3/4/5 should be a very short emergency boost, (+10% on TMS) +11/12/13/14/15% reflects for 10-15 seconds, usable as an emergency defense like cocoon,etc.

Soldiers defense hole is just too large and the unkillable reflect number (anything over about 84% at endgame which is AMS3 + ofab back or better) simply lasts too long. Normalizing this unkillable effect into a true emergency tool and having the soldier defense hole be drastically reduced is the solution soldiers need to combat the majority of their weaknesses (except nanoresist and lack of CC).

I'll just add on to this in terms of context, because I know most people would be like, "70% LOL R U STUPID PLS THATS SO HIGH."

Typically, anything 75% reflect, is killable reasonably fast. Not really really fast, but pretty fast. Because every more point of reflect you get is more valuble (As in, the gain from 98% to 99% reflect effectively reduces your incoming damage [from 98%] by half, if this makes sense. There's a word for that, I just do not know it), the difference between 85% and 75% reflects is actually very large. It's really noticed when a soldier essentially is just a sack of health after their reflects are removed.

This is why removing 30% of a soldiers' reflects with borrow reflect may as well make the AMS nonexistant, and AMS does not help past that point, especially when you're taking into consideration NSD or pierce reflect, which could make someone want to just straight up delete their soldier. A soldier with 60%, and a soldier with 10% would still pretty much die in under 10s to an engineer. It'd be nice if soldiers could over 100% reflects in a small period of time to help against NSD and pierce reflects. My only worry would be maybe a lower damage profession or setup, such as a shield metaphysicist killing a soldier.

If you don't think this is true, go ask a soldier to usr 70% reflects and see how fast they die through it

[Le-Quack]

mhm i get frustrated.. soldiers need 85% reflect + to work. anything under is a joke. i dont get why someone could come and say something like that.

soldiers is soldier, listen to the name... i say it agein, soldier!

[Manicmouse]

The word "soldier" implies glass cannon to me, massed infantry vulnerable to almost anything!

I'm not helping am I

[Marinegent]

The word "soldier" implies glass cannon to me, massed infantry vulnerable to almost anything!

I'm not helping am I

It's only meaningful if we can kill nearly anyone. Ill let you put that theory to the test.

[Manicmouse]

It's only meaningful if we can kill nearly anyone. Ill let you put that theory to the test.

Pay my subs first