Twinks

[MassDebater]

200 bs is kind of boring compared to the diverse profs you'd see at tl5 IMO.

Anything sub 150 is trader online. Or agent fp trad, or enf designed to counter trader.


220 is 80% enf or fixer.

So yeah 150-170 is most balanced and diverse range.

[DrynWhyl]

170 has always been the most fun imo, but ever sinced they ruined it no one else makes twinks @ that level.. Which completely defeats the purpose..

[Wyoming]

I made a post about using the 80%-125% rule to scale with the 5x as powerful levels at 220 - so that a 207 can't attack a 165 and a 220 can't attack 210s.
The PvP system is currently based on 0.8-1.25 with a level gap either side. Proportionally, that should be 0.96 and 1.05, meaning 207s can attack down to 198.

[Mako]

200 bs is kind of boring compared to the diverse profs you'd see at tl5 IMO.

Anything sub 150 is trader online. Or agent fp trad, or enf designed to counter trader.


220 is 80% enf or fixer.

So yeah 150-170 is most balanced and diverse range.

Well, everyone has their opinions. You obviously are not active in 151-200 BS, otherwise you would see how diverse and balanced it is. For example, only in 200 BS will you see a Keeper and MA successfully fight off 2 traders 1 enf and 1 doc. Any other TL(1-5) would be just root-drain-win. At 200, you can still function while drained and even UBT'd.

[Kiceie]

I think the 200 twinks are actually more diverse/balanced than the old 150-170 twinks. Way back when on rk2 in the tl5 range, there were roughly 3 crats, 1 keeper, 2 shades, and 1 engi. The rest were all agent/enf/trader with a few NTs and docs thrown in for good measure.

Thinking of only 200 twinks, I can think of 2 crats, 4 keepers, 4 shades, and 3 engis. This is with a lower population as well. Now the rest of the 200 twinks are largely the standard agent/enf/trader/NT twinks but that is the same for tl5 as well.

At 200 lots of diverse and different setups and profs become viable in a pvp setting. What profs can kill a really good trader twink at tl5? Enfs and maybe a lucky agent (or hell maybe an NR perked shade?). With 200s tool sets I can safely say one of the most OP profs at tl5 is killable by a shade that gets within range, defense setup MPs, keepers, MAs, and finally agents/enfs.

I can't think of a prof that has not been proven to be viable/balanced in pvp at the 200 range.

That being said, some of the most fun I have had pvping in this game was back when the old 150-174 BS was active.

In my opinion, the easiest way to change/fix towers is to simply make tower range = pvp range on the sites (within reason for some sites like the 1-100 site in Mort). This would effectively solve the tl7 killing tl5 problem, give random twink levels more of a purpose, and give the 200 twinks a purpose at towers. Can you imagine the huge 150 twink fights over some of the 100-150 sites without those pesky 170 agents coming in to ruin it? Or the 130-170 sites in CAV//120-180 sites in SAV without people bringing their 200-214 twink killers that every one complains about. There are even a few 150-200 sites for the 200 twinks to fight over. Simple solution that gives everyone some tower pvp without worrying about someone 30 levels higher than you coming in at the last moment and single handily killing your entire team.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

In my opinion, the easiest way to change/fix towers is to simply make tower range = pvp range on the sites (within reason for some sites like the 1-100 site in Mort). This would effectively solve the tl7 killing tl5 problem, give random twink levels more of a purpose, and give the 200 twinks a purpose at towers. Can you imagine the huge 150 twink fights over some of the 100-150 sites without those pesky 170 agents coming in to ruin it? Or the 130-170 sites in CAV//120-180 sites in SAV without people bringing their 200-214 twink killers that every one complains about. There are even a few 150-200 sites for the 200 twinks to fight over. Simple solution that gives everyone some tower pvp without worrying about someone 30 levels higher than you coming in at the last moment and single handily killing your entire team.

/win

but, just an FYI, I can kill good traders in duel if they want to hang around to fight on keeper.

with 2100+AR at beginning of fight, I can take em from top to bottom, and if they want to pop shielding, then they don't got the nano to keep up drains AND heal, and I'll sit kit if they sit, clear the debuffs and it's over.

I'd say winning percentage was about 65-70%

But, the really good traders were a good fight, but they have to use Wenwen, absorb a fast attack/normal on the alpha, and that can keep em alive.

ohyer, and, I'm still around, I was trying to kill a base last night, and got a face full of omni zerg. WTB some support at lowby wars.

[MassDebater]

Well, everyone has their opinions. You obviously are not active in 151-200 BS, otherwise you would see how diverse and balanced it is. For example, only in 200 BS will you see a Keeper and MA successfully fight off 2 traders 1 enf and 1 doc. Any other TL(1-5) would be just root-drain-win. At 200, you can still function while drained and even UBT'd.

Yep sorry never been in 151-200 BS thanks for pointing out TL5 MAs were gimp and that there was never any tl5 keepers.

I think the 200 twinks are actually more diverse/balanced than the old 150-170 twinks. Way back when on rk2 in the tl5 range, there were roughly 3 crats, 1 keeper, 2 shades, and 1 engi. The rest were all agent/enf/trader with a few NTs and docs thrown in for good measure.

There weren't too many crats I agree. There is still one guy who had a tl5 keeper that I know of, shades were gimp again I agree but for eng I'm not suprised that they didn't figure out to use amep on rk2

Thinking of only 200 twinks, I can think of 2 crats, 4 keepers, 4 shades, and 3 engis. This is with a lower population as well. Now the rest of the 200 twinks are largely the standard agent/enf/trader/NT twinks but that is the same for tl5 as well.

So no MAs, no docs, no advies, no soldiers and no MPs?

At 200 lots of diverse and different setups and profs become viable in a pvp setting. What profs can kill a really good trader twink at tl5? Enfs and maybe a lucky agent (or hell maybe an NR perked shade?). With 200s tool sets I can safely say one of the most OP profs at tl5 is killable by a shade that gets within range, defense setup MPs, keepers, MAs, and finally agents/enfs.

I can't think of a prof that has not been proven to be viable/balanced in pvp at the 200 range.

About the only extra one you have listed is shade. But that does not make up for how OP end and agent are in 200 BS.

I'll tell you what's not balanced, sub 164 toons. That is the main problem, 150-174 is now 151-200 which means people roll the most OP solo 200 toon not a viable and needed prof at tl5 wars which is what lead to tl5 BS (not specifically tl5 bs twinks) to being the most diverse.

[Contra]

tl1-4 is OSB wars. One who's got the most OSBs usually wins.
tl5(150-17-) imo, is where pvp skill comes in the equasion. Only flaws about this range are the cookie cutter setups and tl7 gankers.
lvl200 allows some preety freaky setups and it involves pure skill and heavy twinking. Also, at tl6, every prof(without exception) is viable. You get 200 shades that are just amazing, 200 crats, engis, MAs, keepers, MPs, soldiers, agents, enfos, docs...u name it.

@kiceie: You're damn right, son!

[Wyoming]

If both have equal OBs, it's challenging at lower levels.
My only issue is when people come charging in fully OBed for self fights.

[Kiceie]

There weren't too many crats I agree. There is still one guy who had a tl5 keeper that I know of, shades were gimp again I agree but for eng I'm not suprised that they didn't figure out to use amep on rk2

The one good tl5 engi on RK2 I was referring to used AMEP. There were others, even others with AMEP, but none compared to him. So in my mind there was only one "finished" twink.

So no MAs, no docs, no advies, no soldiers and no MPs?

There have always been pvp setup MAs, docs, advies, and soldiers, for almost every pvp range. These professions do fairly well but are rarely thought of as the top or the bottom of the professions. Therefore, I assumed everyone knew they were not the ones in question. These professions exist in reasonable numbers at both tl5 and tl6 twink levels and do fairly well. I didn't mention them because they do not support an argument either one way or another. They are in my mind extra data that obscures the comparison between tl5 and tl6 because very little changes for them.

However, I'm rather pleased you brought up MPs. I purposely left them off the list because currently there is only 1* "finished" 200 MP, mine. I wanted to keep this conversation as general as possible and didn't want to involve personal bias/experiences (I'm looking at you McKnuckleSamwich) and couldn't properly do so for MPs unless I talked about my personal twinks. There were 3 or so tl5 MPs on RK2 if memory serves. Only one of these was active recently/for every long, but the others existed. Of the tl5 MPs, I have talked to 2 of them at length about Instill (my 200 MP) and their MPs. We are all very happy with the viability the LE debuffs/nanos provide to MPs at tl6, that they lack at tl5. Hostility Scourge // Beneficial Scourge // eNSD // Sacrifical Shielding on top of a static 2.3k-2.4k defense provides a pretty solid pvp profession that can reliably kill what you describe as the most OP profession at 200, agents.

*Or 2, rumor has it RK1 had one as well but I am yet to see him do anything but afk so not sure if hes "good."

About the only extra one you have listed is shade. But that does not make up for how OP end and agent are in 200 BS.

I'm going to assume you wanted that to read "how OP enfs and agents are in 200 BS."

I agree that if I was forced to pick a statistically best profession at 200, it would be enforcers. However both agents and enforcers are only moderately better than other professions in my opinion (maybe a little more than moderately for enforcers). Agents are less of a threat at 200 because all other 13 professions have an increase in alpha damage. An agent chaining CH isn't a viable tactic as much as it is at tl5.

I'll tell you what's not balanced, sub 164 toons.

I'm glad we can at least agreed that 46% of the tl5 level range is not balanced, although I personally think the other 16 levels are not particularly balanced either.

Back on topic:

In my opinion, the easiest way to change/fix towers is to simply make tower range = pvp range on the sites (within reason for some sites like the 1-100 site in Mort). This would effectively solve the tl7 killing tl5 problem, give random twink levels more of a purpose, and give the 200 twinks a purpose at towers. Can you imagine the huge 150 twink fights over some of the 100-150 sites without those pesky 170 agents coming in to ruin it? Or the 130-170 sites in CAV//120-180 sites in SAV without people bringing their 200-214 twink killers that every one complains about. There are even a few 150-200 sites for the 200 twinks to fight over. Simple solution that gives everyone some tower pvp without worrying about someone 30 levels higher than you coming in at the last moment and single handily killing your entire team.

I still like this idea the most, but it wont actually improve what you call "flagged open pvp." The only thing that will significantly help that issue is changing pvp ranges. However changing the pvp ranges would more than likely make at least some old twinks completely useless. At least with changing pvp range to the tower range of a site makes all currently leveled twinks useful somewhere. Even the 207 twinks would be important in attacking/defending the few sites with a max range of 210.

[Gatester]

But that does not make up for how OP end and agent are in 200 BS.

Heh, enfs and agents...I've been playing my sold too long since the only OP thing about them in my opinion is how fast they run away. Its more a matter of match-up than anything else and even those can be odd.

Know the worst thing for my 200 soldier to run into one on one? Surprisingly enough its not an NT, trader, or engineer...its a crat.

[Mako]

Heh, enfs and agents...I've been playing my sold too long since the only OP thing about them in my opinion is how fast they run away. .

Could not agree more

[Wyoming]

Know the worst thing for my 200 soldier to run into one on one? Surprisingly enough its not an NT, trader, or engineer...its a crat.

Hey, is there any way I could contact you? I'm working on a 200 soldier and could use some tips.
Just, leave me a tell on Wyoming/Misterwhite if possible.

[Gatester]

I don't mind but I'll forget. Half my toons are in my sig, although I could be on my 150 fixer babysnakes or working on a few special projects...If I remember I'll see if you are on.

[Pomidor]

From my experience fo pvping and watching PVP, talking about PVp with other players, 100 is MOST balanced due few points I will point out here, then I will go to another lines:

- At lvl 100, most classes can buff top RK nanos.
- NR perkage, which outclude of casting Top nanos, serves well to characters that want to be trader-proff /doc-proff/MP proff/
- At lvl 100 there are no perks for 800 evades for Ma/Adv/Shade/Fixer/
- Variety of setups is huge for most proffesions (even MP, I will get to that).
- From all lvls I have pvped, lvl 100 meets most equal fighting chances in duels.
- There is no "godlike mode" in any situation.

That being said, I have build following twinks for lvl 100:
- 100 MP (with Bow, def setup with alpha in mind - had really insane alpha abilities)
- 100 NM enf with Nano setup
- 100 Trox enf with Maul, DD/HP setup
- 100 Soldier (alpha setup, corona and JPGP)
- 100 Fixer with GAIII
- 100 Doc with HP/CH setup +NR
- 100 NR soldier (no buffs)
- 100 NT twink

Having all those twinks I made over 300 duels and twice ammounts of fights in BSs (when they were active, sniff).
During this havoc, I have meet other twinks various classes. There was NO food chain, except Shades (sorry shades, at 100 you sux vs everything that can be called decent twink).

Now, back to the start:
- Docs was not so OPd in duels, because CH made them run out of nanos after few miuntes of fight. Skilled doc could always win with my enfs, but that reuired to be focused to the max of that doc, and fights lasted sometimes 30 minutes!
- MP could not win with everyone, but many times fights were at edge. I say it was enfs that caused bigest problems, then soldiers. But no matter what I had chances, and I could win many of those clashes.
- as an NT i found enfs to be hardest when I wanted to tank - but using tollset makes thing different.
- Being soldier I could fight enfs and (!) I lost many of those fights. Fixers caused biggest problems, then Advies. Still, depend on luck, I could win.
- Being doc heavli focused on survive skills, I could win 1vs1 encounter, but that took time, and - to be honest - doc was at his place, being support class. So I call it balanced.
- I saw well twinked MA - fought with him on few twinks, then I saw duels vs other players and I can say he was hard to kill, but many matches were also at close call.

Doing 150 or 200 duels (which I am in atm, becuase I stopped NW while ago) shows me that some classes are extremally OPed, and I dont saw that on lvl 100.
Traders, which should be on top of food chain can be easly countered either by NR or by AR, or toolset designed for lvl 200 pre-sl toons. So yes, its balanced as much as possible. (actually, that pre-draining thing makes them twice OPed. What I was testing few days ago vs 3 traders - it changes gameplay drastically :/)

[Gatester]

A true test of balance is what happens with a group vs another group or what happens when players are starting 50m apart and seeing the results after several back-to-back tests rather than waiting 30 minutes between fights. Dueling has its own issues that make it entirely different from other types of PVP.

[Mako]

From my experience fo pvping and watching PVP, talking about PVp with other players, 100 is MOST balanced due few points I will point out here, then I will go to another lines:

- At lvl 100, most classes can buff top RK nanos.
- NR perkage, which outclude of casting Top nanos, serves well to characters that want to be trader-proff /doc-proff/MP proff/
- At lvl 100 there are no perks for 800 evades for Ma/Adv/Shade/Fixer/
- Variety of setups is huge for most proffesions (even MP, I will get to that).
- From all lvls I have pvped, lvl 100 meets most equal fighting chances in duels.
- There is no "godlike mode" in any situation.

That being said, I have build following twinks for lvl 100:
- 100 MP (with Bow, def setup with alpha in mind - had really insane alpha abilities)
- 100 NM enf with Nano setup
- 100 Trox enf with Maul, DD/HP setup
- 100 Soldier (alpha setup, corona and JPGP)
- 100 Fixer with GAIII
- 100 Doc with HP/CH setup +NR
- 100 NR soldier (no buffs)
- 100 NT twink

Having all those twinks I made over 300 duels and twice ammounts of fights in BSs (when they were active, sniff).
During this havoc, I have meet other twinks various classes. There was NO food chain, except Shades (sorry shades, at 100 you sux vs everything that can be called decent twink).

Now, back to the start:
- Docs was not so OPd in duels, because CH made them run out of nanos after few miuntes of fight. Skilled doc could always win with my enfs, but that reuired to be focused to the max of that doc, and fights lasted sometimes 30 minutes!
- MP could not win with everyone, but many times fights were at edge. I say it was enfs that caused bigest problems, then soldiers. But no matter what I had chances, and I could win many of those clashes.
- as an NT i found enfs to be hardest when I wanted to tank - but using tollset makes thing different.
- Being soldier I could fight enfs and (!) I lost many of those fights. Fixers caused biggest problems, then Advies. Still, depend on luck, I could win.
- Being doc heavli focused on survive skills, I could win 1vs1 encounter, but that took time, and - to be honest - doc was at his place, being support class. So I call it balanced.
- I saw well twinked MA - fought with him on few twinks, then I saw duels vs other players and I can say he was hard to kill, but many matches were also at close call.

Doing 150 or 200 duels (which I am in atm, becuase I stopped NW while ago) shows me that some classes are extremally OPed, and I dont saw that on lvl 100.
Traders, which should be on top of food chain can be easly countered either by NR or by AR, or toolset designed for lvl 200 pre-sl toons. So yes, its balanced as much as possible. (actually, that pre-draining thing makes them twice OPed. What I was testing few days ago vs 3 traders - it changes gameplay drastically :/)

I just can't understand how people like you think this is logic. Even just ONE Nanite trader drain would disable that entire list of "twinks" you posted. Your solution to that is an outrageous NR setup (might work if its an agent with only AS to spam while kiting, otherwise no) or AR setup that will get nullified with ONE drain. How is this balanced?

[Wyoming]

After a Perennium blaster alpha, a Trader is potato.
HOW IS THIS BALANCED!
After an Enforcer can unleash it's alpha on it's 4k hp target (any DD weapon) then Trader is potato
HOW IS THIS BALANCED!
The only way it's unbalanced is if the Trader can sneak/kite/root, so it'd be perfect if the nanite drains added a -runspeed/concealment debuff

[Mako]

After a Perennium blaster alpha, a Trader is potato.
HOW IS THIS BALANCED!
After an Enforcer can unleash it's alpha on it's 4k hp target (any DD weapon) then Trader is potato
HOW IS THIS BALANCED!
The only way it's unbalanced is if the Trader can sneak/kite/root, so it'd be perfect if the nanite drains added a -runspeed/concealment debuff

Take your Sol/Enf and duel a trader that is actually equipped and skilled. What awful traders are you dueling that have 4k HP? The point is...at Lv100, no matter how much you think you twinked your non-trader, an equally twinked trader will win each time if they know what they're doing. The ONLY reason is because of how overpowered the drains are at that level. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

[Gatester]

On BS today with my 150 fixer:

I fail to alpha a trader twice, the second alpha (which includes 2 AI perks, AS/burst/fling/FA) got him to a fraction of health in which he was able to heal up to about half health and eventually kill me after 30 seconds or so.

I end up fighting a different 150 trader, a 140 random gimp (didn't bother seeing what it was), a 150 agent in mimic enforcer. While sitting around 1 to 2 bubbles of health for at least 2 minutes straight using my sit kits, heal stims, and 3 hots running I was able to weaken the trader but get to where I couldn't kill it, switch to the agent and kill it, switch to the gimp and almost kill it when support shows up (a 109 trader) which attacks the 150, I kill the gimp and the agent shows up, I start on the agent and alpha it to half when more support shows up and finishes off the agent and then I was able to AS the trader to finish it off.


Sometimes you can handle a trader, sometimes you can't