Agent pvm-damage stagnates after tl5 and up

[Lazy]

today we learned that agents can OD greenies and afkers.

[lainbr]

I can't see what the complaint is about? Advies, traders, some Soldiers, Docs, Enfos, MP's, Keepers have less damage than that.

Srompu : 78.8% | 186,407 | 33-16-1105: 287,506 :

Also you are welcome to join OT-RP's raid any time, you seem like nice guy, we'll take you for your attitude.

O.o What kind of Soldier MP and Keeper does less than 180k dpm?

[Obtena]

I don't think that data is an accurate demonstration of the damage capability of those various professions. It doesn't even look like the doctor has a weapon equipped.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

What I am trying to say most professions do less damage than he did.

Here is an example of what normal Vortex DD run looks like.

Player (Damage/Damage per Minute/Hits/Crits/Crit%/highest hit)
Crat ( 1.511.030 / 291.480 / 619 / 37 / 5% / 9.750 )
Crat ( 678.030 / 130.800 / 418 / 15 / 3% / 5.224 )
Tank ( 575.167 / 110.940 / 206 / 8 / 3% / 6.129 )
Crat ( 532.755 / 102.780 / 463 / 13 / 2% / 3.276 )
Sold ( 528.577 / 101.940 / 101 / 2 / 1% / 15.000 )
Doc ( 221.648 / 42.720 / 145 / 6 / 4% / 3.501 )

regular people trying to do content, + one slighly ddwhoring crat, 180ish looks kinda ok doesn't it? Srompu would contribute to such a team way above average, and in that sense he would be very welcome.

In about 4/5 teams for ANY content... thats what the parser damage distribution looks like.

in the occasional team, you get 2+ DD whores and you get the content done faster.

Thats kinda what I don't understand about all this. If you actually press the buttons fast and run around, you'll OD everyone and his dog.

[Psikie]

In about 4/5 teams for ANY content... thats what the parser damage distribution looks like.

in the occasional team, you get 2+ DD whores and you get the content done faster.

Thats kinda what I don't understand about all this. If you actually press the buttons fast and run around, you'll OD everyone and his dog.

Kinda how I look at things also, if you have a few folks who push DD for a test you can get some skewed results.

Great example if I totally gear my keeper for DD with procs, armor spots and perk setup ignoring evades I can easily pile up serious dps far above a standard pvp/pvm setup. The only way to resonably go with that setup is with GOOD enfo (to hold aggro). Not something you could do solo pvm with any survival in mind.

[Cratertina]

Aye, that is how teams mostly look like, you would find that agent without sploitsome AS would fit right in, about where soldier and 217 crat is. Maybe agents cant touch damage whores, but reast assured 80% of the time they improve and add to the team. Frankly crat + fp doc agent might OD crat+doc on many things.

Agent clearly is no damage dealer, but neither are most people most of the time, doing real content gathering real gear.

[Cratertina]

O.o What kind of Soldier MP and Keeper does less than 180k dpm?

Let me repeat. Almost any you see every day and actualy does content for his/her benefit.

[Otansaanpas]

Thats kinda what I don't understand about all this. If you actually press the buttons fast and run around, you'll OD everyone and his dog.

except engis still are the highest DD profession in game, ODing shades by over 100k dpm.

but true.. if current custom is to dual-quadlog and play afk, all toons should be balanced based on afk performance.
if we put afk agent and doc shooting each others, that is the proper benchmark to see which toon should receive nerfs and which buffs.

if one was to suggest balance for non afkers, we shall call him nub-troll.

[sultryvoltron]

Kinda how I look at things also, if you have a few folks who push DD for a test you can get some skewed results.

Great example if I totally gear my keeper for DD with procs, armor spots and perk setup ignoring evades I can easily pile up serious dps far above a standard pvp/pvm setup. The only way to resonably go with that setup is with GOOD enfo (to hold aggro). Not something you could do solo pvm with any survival in mind.

My friends all try as hard as possible to OD each other. Hmm...

[Djiax]

My friends all try as hard as possible to OD each other. Hmm...

Maybe they are feeling insecure about the size of their epeen?

[sultryvoltron]

Maybe they are feeling insecure about the size of their epeen?

More like its fun.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It's certainly fun to push Damage.

I'm just saying, I don't know anyone who goes all out 100% of the time.

I used to be interested in pushing damage, but lately I'm almost always required to be using 2 and sometimes 3 toons, and, anytime you're using a high attention prof (crat/doc/shade/NT) to do anything its difficult to be alt tabbign fast enough to be doing "good" dps on both toons.

I find it's easier to play the pillars and go at a comfortable speed, rather than attempting to go ape**** DPS on both at once.

Besides, in most situations, going ape**** doesn't payoff, it usually ends with enf losing agg, or doc not realizing the suicider has agg until he's duel critted for 20k and is at reclaim faster than the time required to alt tab and the screen to catch up.

Anyway, i'm all for people going buck-chow and breaking the damage meters, but, it really doesn't seem to be necessary, for one, or condusive to game "enjoyment". Like, if you pox 4 times in one fight... because the rest fo the team is functioning at a "human level" and you're functioning and pushing DD at a "I know kung fu" level.... well, is it fun? all the time at reclaim you're not doign any damage anyway, so it all evens out in the end.

Thats not to say I want to progress at a snails pace either. The middle ground is huge in this.

[Xirayne]

I'm just saying, I don't know anyone who goes all out 100% of the time.

The reason this topic is an issue is because an agent who is not playing at 100% performs less than other profs even if said other profs are only playing at 0-10%. More effort for less damage, while also having little else to contribute to a team.

Using the logic that tl7 agent dd is okay because a max setup and top played agent compares to casually played average toon of another prof, is similar to claiming that tl7 keepers are balanced in pvp because a completely finished and top played keeper can have a chance to defeat an undergeared and poorly played character of another profession, while remaining unable to compete vs similarly set up and played characters. If you want to test and discuss balance issues you need to keep the test conditions equal, or else the results are practically meaningless.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The reason this topic is an issue is because an agent who is not playing at 100% performs less than other profs even if said other profs are only playing at 0-10%. More effort for less damage, while also having little else to contribute to a team.

Using the logic that tl7 agent dd is okay because a max setup and top played agent compares to casually played average toon of another prof, is similar to claiming that tl7 keepers are balanced in pvp because a completely finished and top played keeper can have a chance to defeat an undergeared and poorly played character of another profession, while remaining unable to compete vs similarly set up and played characters. If you want to test and discuss balance issues you need to keep the test conditions equal, or else the results are practically meaningless.

I call Bullsh*t.

anyone playing at 0-10% is doign absolutely F-all.

0-10% to me means being in range of your team JUST so your damage aura/refelct aura hits them... and probably not zoning at the same time, catching up occasionally but in general ALWAYS behind the group, and probably not paying attention to which mob is called, etc.

If you play a crat, and you debuff 3 mobs in a minute (20s per mob to kill), you're going to press:
1. 3x malaise
2. 9x red tape
3. 10x flingshot
4. 9xburst
5. 3x pet attack
6. 3x SL perk
7. 4x AI perk
8. 4xanti-trust
9. probably 10x nukes
10. average 1 pet buff refresh

Thats a total of 3+9+10+9+3+3+4+4+10+1 = 56 actions per minute

playing 0-10% =average 5%
5%*56 actions = 2.8 actions.

That means, barring all else, if a crat played at 5%, they wouldn't even be able to get their pets attacking a mob all the time.

TBH, I'd say thats a pretty conservative estimate, at 20s per mob... doing 56 actions per minute seems pretty slow when you're actually playing I'd say on average a crat is doing closer to 70 actions per minute during standard play.

An agent will vastly outperform a crat (I chose crat because crats are excellent DPS, but at high(ish) actions per minute) doing 0-10% activity.

[Xirayne]

If you wish, I could change the % effort value in my post to 25-50% if your opinion on effort differs from mine so much that you refuse to see the point. To me, 0-10% means /follow, tab, q, send pets, something that can be done without even looking at the screen.

The point still remains that an agent must try significantly harder to achieve even similar results.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It doesn't matter.

An agent will significantly OD crat pets if thats all you're doing.

Against multiple mobs, an agent can quad dot, multi AS and do pretty decent damage.

A crat doing tab q\n /pet attack\n /v I'm DLing porn, don't bug me! isn't going to do anything remotely close to an agent who is playing hard.

crats CAN do great damage... but the average crat playing slacker style is barely going to register on the parser.

This all comes back to what I said in the "enf's are the nurfest" thread. If you play hard, you'll do good damage.

Crats do have a half decent AFK toolset. But their afk toolset is a turd in the wind compared to their NON afk toolset.

Buffing pets with the 2minute superdamage buff, spamming specials to get justice to proc, and roasting mobs with 2 nukes under justice is where the real damage comes from. Heck, the way I play crat, I don't even debuff mobs in most content, I go straight for the jugular.

But, thats the difference between 120k DPM and 280k DPM.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Just becuase it would be an interesting exercise, I'll do a parse on crat pets.

Obviously, a slacking crat isn't going to buff his pets with more than top gallant butler thing or whatever, so I'll do that buff+ICRT, but thats it.

Then I'll assume that the previously posted dumps for agents are reasonable effort.

And I'll post a crat pet only +slacking q and see what happens.

[Psikie]

If you wish, I could change the % effort value in my post to 25-50% if your opinion on effort differs from mine so much that you refuse to see the point.

I can see where you are coming from with this Xira, although I would say 50-80%. Can an agent ever OD a sol/shade/crat/engi on raid mobs...no. But they aren't supposed to either, they are a ranged support prof not front line tank/DD. Can they OD on single mobs... mostly when the mobs drop before full perk chains go off. I think what MrK is getting at is that the current state of AO people don't really do all that epeen at max effort 100% of the time, it's more leisurely when you have done it 20-50x already...unless you believe the posts of people that don't even play lol.

I feel that most 3-6 man "raid" teams now a days are usually people you know that are teamed together to get something for someone, and the "roll on loot" is already decided before the raid begins. So some of the posters saying "I'd never invite an agent to team" is utter bull. Especially if it's a buddy that helped them get something in the past.

[Xirayne]

I can see where you are coming from with this Xira, although I would say 50-80%. Can an agent ever OD a sol/shade/crat/engi on raid mobs...no. But they aren't supposed to either, they are a ranged support prof not front line tank/DD. Can they OD on single mobs... mostly when the mobs drop before full perk chains go off. I think what MrK is getting at is that the current state of AO people don't really do all that epeen at max effort 100% of the time, it's more leisurely when you have done it 20-50x already...unless you believe the posts of people that don't even play lol.

I feel that most 3-6 man "raid" teams now a days are usually people you know that are teamed together to get something for someone, and the "roll on loot" is already decided before the raid begins. So some of the posters saying "I'd never invite an agent to team" is utter bull. Especially if it's a buddy that helped them get something in the past.

It's not that I would like for an agent to OD a DD prof, (although as a stealth/assassin prof, you would think damage would be a strong point.) I would simply prefer for them to offer more than they currently do. Your numbers showed that your bare bones agent on low ac target was OD'd by bare bones crat + pets on high ac target. I don't really see that as acceptable. It would be much more 'balanced" if the differences in dpm were not so extreme that one profession(in a top setup) can do literally 2-3x the dpm of another profession(also in a top setup). If any prof should go suicide setup or play completely focused on DD, they should expect at least comparable damage to other professions playing similarly.

On the topic of the communities playstyle not being completely focused on max DPM, of course not everyone plays like a DDer. However if you are going to balance a professions abilities as a whole, you need to take those maxed out scenarios into account. Fail to do so and you often end up with extreme balance problems where people are running around significantly stronger than they "should" be. A serious problem especially noticeable when addressing or observing pvp balance

[Psikie]

Your numbers showed that your bare bones agent on low ac target was OD'd by bare bones crat + pets on high ac target. I don't really see that as acceptable.

I am torn on that point. 220 pets made all the pet classes DD contenders as you basically have the equivalent of 2-3 avg players in one. So it's kinda unfair to use pet classes in DD comparisons except vs each other or other main line dmg dealers.