last time i checked SA/Dim were instant and drop 60% of a person's hp. looks like enfos don't need all those CC tools since over half their damage is instant...Originally Posted by Gatester
last time i checked SA/Dim were instant and drop 60% of a person's hp. looks like enfos don't need all those CC tools since over half their damage is instant...
So 3 out of 14 professions can withstand an enforcer alpha, with one of those (keeper) dieing shortly thereafter and posing no real threat to the enforcer anyways. Of the two left (engi, sold) only one has any real means of killing the enforcer in return (snare mines on BS). So we're left with one profession out of 14 capable of surviving being targeted by an enforcer and having a chance at killing the enforcer in return, and only on BS? About what I thought.
Shouldn't there be some "yin" to an enfo's "yang" somewhere? Like shades and roots, fixer's and nanodamage/AS, doctor's and debuffs?
It was like this 2 years ago when they introduced the 1hb/he exploit and rather than fix it they decided to encourage it and not punish.
This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it
and then they added the patch that made every perk modified by your add dmg for that dmg type....
Well...they don't need more than one stun lol, or all the snares and init debuffs. Dimach is stupid but only available once a BS round and probably once every duel. SA depends on the target but its generally not a 30% cap, closer to 15-20%, and it ends up even less when players have RRFE.
Still, enforcers could due to being limited to either 1 stun or a few init debuffs, not both.
I think there are several individual aspects which combine into one major problem.
1) The perk alpha available by the 1he/1hb sploit is insanely powerful, and when combined with specials/regulars becomes unreal. The fast recharge on it adds to the power.
Result: Anything perkable that relies on passive defense (hp/reflects/etc) is in trouble. That's fine; shades have a lot of damage too.
2) The variety of stuns and init debuffs available, combined with 7s fear not breaking, make it difficult to use active defense.
Result: Anything perkable that relies on active defense (heals/perks/etc) is in trouble. That's fine; crats debuff better.
3) AAO from challenger and procs not only help landing regular perks, but also give AI perks very high AR.
Result: Only pure evade classes aren't perkable. That's fine; NTs can hit everyone after some CB.
4) Innate root/snare/stun resist combined with rage NR and rage itself make CCing an enfo difficult if not impossible. The runspeed on Rage almost negates Tranquilizer, the highest perk-based snare.
Result: The enfo can leave if his alpha fails, wait for its (fast) recharge, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's fine; fixers are harder to stop.
5) High HP, Bio Shielding, and passive healing make it almost impossible to alpha an enfo.
Result: Can't alpha the enfo. That's fine; can't alpha solja/kippur/engi generally.
HOWEVER
Final product:
Fast cycle huge alpha with stuns/debuffs/fear on a high-AR class who can't be alphaed or stopped.
MR just extends this to pure evade classes imo, and makes it obvious how broken it is.
Can only spend so many years suggesting appropriate nerfs to enforcers and not get anything done. I would have even tried for professional if I thought I could get the stupid healing replaced and nerfed rage spamming and CC breaking and moving CC perks out of the 1he/1hb combination and...
Does Devastating Blow still check 50% btw?
Reading this thread over it's noticeable that MR is being brought up just as much as the Enforcer toolset alone. Not everyone plays Atrox and depends on an extra 1.5k ar with the push of a button. Playing a Solitus myself i must say it isn't as OP ( to me ) as people seem to make them to be. While some things Enforcers have that are just plain dumb and should be removed (Fear/Spammed Rage/Maybe init debuffs?) are currently ingame, MR seems to be at fault for most of the complaining about the profession.
With all the Hp recently added evade classes are actually quite close to impossible to kill. ( if played right) As for classes like Doctors/Agents it can be quite close if they time their stuff correctly. ( though moreso than not i succeed in alphaing them.) Other classes like Crats/Engis/Nt's/Traders all depend on what they have up and what I as the enforcer have up. This is excluding the Enforcers ability to just run away because as I've said Rage does need a nerf of some kind. But if included, then the enforcers chances go up 110%.
While I agree to an extent that the Enforcer class is op, I also have to honestly disagree that the full alpha isn't as insane as people make it out to be. Most who take the time to learn and adjust can survive the alpha upon learning when to use their stuff at the right time.
Being a player of an Agent/Engi/Trader myself I must say that the only class they really scare me on is Agent. ( Engi i guess when no defensive perks are up) And even then it comes off close if i play right. As for keeping up with a running Enforcer, Engi is the only one i usually have a problem with keeping up with. Just a bit of POV.
So as I've said, while Enforcers can be a bit too much at times, most people are making em out to be way more then they really are. As everyone knows, MR is a breed thing. Which obviously should be changed and the Enforcer profession shouldn't be blamed for it. I do think a few things need to be adjusted/removed ( WHY DO FEARS EVEN EXIST?). but for the most part Enforcer is ok.
There's some thought from someone who plays more than one profession often. =)
But IF you could bring certain evade professions into your range of perkability (I.E. If you use MR), would your alpha be completely unfun to play against as one of those evade professions?
ya like MA with their "a bit more HP now" and a 1500 absorb.... totally useful vs a 30k alpha and -1000 evades.
:rollseyes:
I did say somethings do need changing didn't I? Nemesis being one of them. Heaven forbid i forget something I never use on my Enforcer.
As for bringing certain evade professions into range, how fun do you think it is to not be able to do anything to certain evade classes? It goes both ways. And using the MR argument isn't as valid as you seem to think it is. While it benefits the profession alot, you're still, yet again, blaming Enforcer for a stupid perk that, (is open to everyone) apparently, everyone of those Enforcers should have. Just like Mongo Rage, there's a huge list of broken things that are currently ingame. Why is the so called deadly Enforcer alpha the one that stands out the most? Oh right, because it's Mongo Rage ( hi there, breed specific item!) that makes it stand out. I'm not saying Enforcers aren't tough to beat. But they also aren't these Weapons of Mass Destruction you make em out to be.
Also on another note, I play one of those "close to range of perkability" classes. And while I will die to an enforcer here and there, it isn't consistent enough for me to think the perk alpha is "unfun" to deal with.
Keep in mind I did say somethings in the enforcer toolset do need changes. Unbreaking fear ( or having fear at all for that matter) probably being the biggest one.
In all honesty MR enfo is not nearly as deadly to me as MR shade/keeper. Enfo has to sploit and split AR 1he/1hb to have 2 natural dmg perklines. Shades and Keepers are built in with 2 dmg perklines.
For just plain duel/toe to toe kill power I would choose those over enfo. But thats personal preference.
Last edited by Psikie; Nov 28th, 2012 at 06:05:38.
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O_o whats keepers second damage perk line?
If you're talking about samurai line.. thats laf.
deep cuts is probably the next most useless perk after quick cuts and butafuka slash is... exactly that.
Shades who pvp don't have two damage perklines either. Shades and keepers are also kiteable, have fewer or no on demand stuns (no int debuff), smaller alphas, are susceptible to roots, and don't have any fear nano to throw out while your MR is firing up followed by a huge snare to hold them still while you mash your perk alpha macro.
Oh wait ... we aren't talking about atrox of other professions here. Don't cloud the argument about OPed enfo PVP with talking about something that's completely irrelevant. You should know better than to try that with me.
The fact is that playing a non-atrox enfo in PVP is a completely different experience than an atrox one and we all know why. Simply being enfo is not enough to be held to this OP'ed standard of PVP. I like the way that Srompu has broken down the enfo matchups there. If FC ever move forward with the changes, it's pretty evident how enfo PVP will be impacted by the things we have seen.
Last edited by Obtena; Nov 28th, 2012 at 22:44:14.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
High AR for ai perks, SA, dimach, devastating blow (no enf to confirm it's still 50%?), and bring the pain all work pretty effectively for non trox enforcers against evaders. Devastating Blow and SA is likely an instant 60% of an evade profs hp, throw in dimach and it's an NT triple. Rage +/follow to take care of the last bit of hp. Throw in god mode evac and enfs are still above average without MR.
Sure. So what are you trying to say? I though this was a discussion about OPed PVP enfos? Do you think it's also unreasonable for enfos to be above average in PVP as well? Do you think it's reasonable to continually assess PVP capability with your perfectly concocted scenarios that display enfos as the inevitable victors of any PVP encounter? I don't and frankly it displays a sense of disingenuous trickery .. the kind that would only fool ignorant school children. I'm embarrassed to see people still trying to take that approach. Sorry, every time you see an enfo in PVP, they don't have every perk and special attack ready to kill you with all their procs up, Challenger, rage and mongo running, with full absorbs and a complete set of endgame gear to evade and resist all your attacks. It happens? yes, but it's an exceptional condition. Save your exceptional, n=1 case for the kids.
I won't dispute that there is an OPed setup for enfos in PVP. To deny that is stupid and I'm pretty satisfied that the devs are aware of the situation. That's as good as you can get right now.
On the other hand, it would also be stupid to deny that simply removing MR from any enfos repetoire would go a significant way (if not the whole way) to make enfos a REASONABLY FORMIDABLE opponent. Maybe instead of QQing about how good enfos toolset is, you should be QQing about how totally crap the professions toolset you are using is so you have a better chances in PVP.
Last edited by Obtena; Nov 28th, 2012 at 23:21:23.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
Above average+way OP'd in the primary breed... is... OP'd.
sub average using non-primary breed+OP'd using primary breed is ok, except that in general it results in a vastly skewed population in the primary breed, thus resulting in..... OP'd!
Therefore, in general, you can't remove atrox breed from enforcers, OR enforcers from atrox breed choice, because, simply, they go hand in hand.
There's something about a breed change in there that means you are CHOOSING to be suboptimal.
It's like if I had a choice whether or not I wanted AS to ignore evades, I chose that it should check evades, and then complained that it missed.
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