Balanced fights

[Contra]

Shade SP line drains nano. My shade uses Chthonic Dissipation wich procs more often then you think and drains A LOT of nano. Also, when dueling docs or enfos or agent, I use a Ring of Sister Merciless for even more nano drain. This will empty a doc's nanopool in a max of 90 seconds, regardless of ring proc and/or Genius 2.

Also, I said smart agents, not the regular Joe who uses a SPS at 220. Use absolute concentration and your AS will cap, your SA has a high chance of capping, dimach will cap etc. Only thing that's likely to fail in this alpha is FA, but that lands on doctors preety often.
I don't know what agents you know, but the ones I know use this alpha effectively and kill doctors just fine, even the best ones.

You do not need AS on a NT to kill a good doctor, all you need is perfect timing and a good knowledge of your perks and cooldowns.
DoT it, start Supernova chain, IU, IU, IU, now Supernova is available. Queue Supernova with CA/Feast/Bot Confinement, cast NBS, DM+tripple. This is how I do it and it works. You can /sig my statements all you want, I'm basing my statements on experience.

[Sromp]

I'm in no way saying it can't be done or disagreeing with your alpha method. Good doctors can die to good agents. I merely want to point out that it's not guaranteed and that other players have tricks too.

As a side note:
-SA has a chance of capping, since higher multipliers don't negate lower multipliers unlike AS. I'm curious what the actual % is, though. Someone must know the roll weightings, so we could actually get a number for this, come to think of it.
-Booster AS won't always cap, even with AC. Someone with an active account go prove and post for me, please.
-Agent dimach will not cap a worthwhile doctor because it can't hit 7k+ PvP damage. This is a function of the dimach weapon template and Agent skill caps; it just doesn't work.


If I remember this weekend and have time, I'll try to get some actual limiting numbers and ranges. I won't have time though, so someone else should do this, please.

[Contra]

If I remember this weekend and have time, I'll try to get some actual limiting numbers and ranges. I won't have time though, so someone else should do this, please.

Found the time?
I'm getting /sigged on PvP related stuff by a guy who thinks 22k HP is alot and hard to alpha :-s

[Sromp]

Found the time?

Not the time to go check the special attack rolling formula and do the AC calcs 'n stuff, but JUST FOR YOU I logged on and hit a grey bartender using +499 damage, a scope, and 1690 SA skill.

Booster AS with AC:
8532
10688
13000
10805

SA from PE:
11986
6860
7336
10652
4764
10622
10598
13000
10598
13000
7542
10634
11998
5683
13000
10592
6925
10592
7456
7450

Dimach:
8045

So, assuming you're dueling a doc with 22k hp (lol) and no reflect graft (heh) and Bartender AC, you'd need over 13k PvM equivalent damage to cap, which gives:
AS will cap? MYTH BUSTED ~25% will
Dimach will cap? MYTH BUSTED ~0% will
SA has a high chance of capping? SORTA ~15% will

I'm getting /sigged on PvP related stuff by a guy who thinks 22k HP is alot and hard to alpha :-s

I don't understand. 22k HP isn't a lot for a doc, and not that hard to alpha. Who's sigging you and thinks that?

Edit:
For the lulz, this is an average 5.5k AS, 4.5k SA, 4k Dimach for 14k damage from specials on an unreflected target. Might be a little higher because the 13000s could hit higher than I measured.

Edit 2:
So experimentally we found this crap. Someone go do the theory.
Dj or Xtremtech or Gatester or one of them crazy mechanics guys.

[Gatester]

To start, it is not guaranteed that every bartender even being the same level would have the same AC's, which means you would need a weapon at 1-1 (1) to best test the SA with, or something with no damage range.

Also, whether the damage add effects each part of the multiplier or not would need to be tested.

Diminishing returns on higher ends of multipliers would have to be tested (which also means a 1-1 (1) weapon would be better) I doubt there are but just in case nothing could be ruled out.

Honestly I never tried testing the multipliers to establish exactly how AS and SA work.

The best I can do is offer the results of some testing using AS and SA in which me and Tifs determined that even 210% critical rating would not guarantee critical hits. This is because we had 1000 dodge, 1200 AS skill, but only 200 weapon skill when testing. We did similar tests with SA. The results are simple to understand as we NEVER critted with the AS nor SA while using concentration:

AS and SA critical hit chance is based on attack rating of the main weapon skill, not the special skill itself. The other weapon specials likely follow the same rules, but as they can actually miss it is harder to determine whether this is the case.


This actually helps testing, because you can use a weapon you have no skill in and focus on uncritted multipliers only. Criticals only complicate the data.

[wonderland]

Found the time?
I'm getting /sigged on PvP related stuff by a guy who thinks 22k HP is alot and hard to alpha :-s

When did I say that 22000 is a lot of health? I do not personally settle for anything under 24000 (Before bodily invigoration). But, doctors that prefer to take attack rating setups, to perk adventurers with pistol perks and shenanigans like that could very well end up with low health like that.

and, I said you can't alpha it with a nanotechnition.

Which you can't. If you decided to take 10s, use your brain, and count your nanotechnition alpha, that doesn't destroy 22000 health from a doctor in enough time to keep them from healing. You're (Like usual) blatantly talking out of your ass and lying about what you're saying. Especially with any doctor init debuffs and -damage on it. I have 10x the experience you do, especially with characters that you never play.

Shade SP line drains nano. My shade uses Chthonic Dissipation wich procs more often then you think and drains A LOT of nano.

Really? You talked about killing a doctor with stun procs. How do you use both Chthonic Dissipation and stun procs at the same time?

Last time you played your nanotechnition, you died to a 200 nanotechnition and tried to really use an excuse that your nanomage cocoon wasn't up, then I watched you die to Alphadxdt. and it's not possibly that you flip those numbers around with your agent doing an m150 and any sneak attack weapon swap. You don't have the experience (Like usual) that you're claiming that you have. (Oh, and apparently you use defensive focus on your nanotechnition. So much for using triples, and having any experience with that. Is contradicting yourself fun? http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1848/dfgdfgdg.jpg)

You should have learned the last 500 times that you made yourself look like a fool.

[Seoin]

One of you has a nt that claims it can destroy docs, one of you has a doc that claims it can survive nts, just arrange a time (publicly announced!) and duel

[Vurtuoso]

I indeed, one day hope to beat an advy as well equipped as my soldier is. I have everything the game has to offer for a soldier and yet I cannot manage to kill a moderately decent one. I vouch for soldiers getting a weaker secondary ams.

[Contra]

When did I say that 22000 is a lot of health? I do not personally settle for anything under 24000 (Before bodily invigoration). But, doctors that prefer to take attack rating setups, to perk adventurers with pistol perks and shenanigans like that could very well end up with low health like that.

and, I said you can't alpha it with a nanotechnition.

Which you can't. If you decided to take 10s, use your brain, and count your nanotechnition alpha, that doesn't destroy 22000 health from a doctor in enough time to keep them from healing. You're (Like usual) blatantly talking out of your ass and lying about what you're saying. Especially with any doctor init debuffs and -damage on it. I have 10x the experience you do, especially with characters that you never play.



Really? You talked about killing a doctor with stun procs. How do you use both Chthonic Dissipation and stun procs at the same time?

Last time you played your nanotechnition, you died to a 200 nanotechnition and tried to really use an excuse that your nanomage cocoon wasn't up, then I watched you die to Alphadxdt. and it's not possibly that you flip those numbers around with your agent doing an m150 and any sneak attack weapon swap. You don't have the experience (Like usual) that you're claiming that you have. (Oh, and apparently you use defensive focus on your nanotechnition. So much for using triples, and having any experience with that. Is contradicting yourself fun? http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1848/dfgdfgdg.jpg)

You should have learned the last 500 times that you made yourself look like a fool.

First of all, I said this: "You won't survive the nanodrain, period, especially if you spam Malpractice. A good shade will drain you dry even with your proc. Also, they COULD be using stun proc, so you can only FM the first stun, then another comes and you die. Also, you need 28k+ HP to survive the basic un-drained alpha(w/o swap) and the reflect graft is an absolute max."
So a good shade can choose EITHER stun procs OR nano drain procs and still have a very high chance of killing any doctor. BUT, in my experience in dueling good docs, nano drain is more effective then stun procs because, obviously, stuns can be removed with FMs and it's a bitch to rely on the proc chance to catch a stun luck, while the nanodrain from perks+ring AND the usual proc landing will leave any doc without any nano, thus giving a higher chance of winning.
Second of all, NTs CAN alpha docs and can only do it with NBS. This is the part where it's obvious your experience with NTs is lacking. NBS is 200% nano damage, correct? This means that each of those 3 dmg lines WILL cap, and the usual cap for a PvP doc is around 7k. That's 21k DD from NBS+Tripple alone. BUT, before the tripple, you were also hit by Detonation Matrix, wich caps 30% HP regardless of NBS or not. And then you have Supernova line, CA, Bot Confinement and Nano Feast. Please, do the math for me and tell me exactly how much DD can a NT dish out if he knows it's timing and does it right.
3rd point of argument: Any 220 below 25k HP can die to a 200 NTs NBS+tripple alpha. All it took was a double, at wich point I casted NS2 out of pure reflex, and then a tripple came, finishing my ~70% HP left. This is why people roll 200 tripple noob NTs. Because you can lol-mode at ANY tl5 and still have the ability to gank 220s every time you get NBS up.
4th point of argument: people dieing to a good fixer's alpha is something you see in game everyday. I'm not ashamed of dieing in a video game, especially versus a good player that knows it's toolset.
So, as you can see, you should try harder, since your attempt to troll me after I showed you two perfectly viable methods of killing a doc on a shade and one perfectly viable way of killing a doc on a NT by saying a 200 NT and a 220 fixer killed me is laughable.
Right, fool.

One of you has a nt that claims it can destroy docs, one of you has a doc that claims it can survive nts, just arrange a time (publicly announced!) and duel

Sure thing. Maybe with this opportunity he could take the time and do the math on the ammount of damage an NT can dish out.

I indeed, one day hope to beat an advy as well equipped as my soldier is. I have everything the game has to offer for a soldier and yet I cannot manage to kill a moderately decent one. I vouch for soldiers getting a weaker secondary ams.

Good luck with that

[Seoin]

I think you counting NBS and him not is where you two split.

And DM does not do 30% normally, altho with NBS of course it would.

[Contra]

DM caps almost all the time: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=275692
And even if it doesn't cap, it does 5-6k dmg to a doctor easy.
Well, I'm counting NBS since it's the only way to kill a doc that isn't sleeping behind his desk. Also, a completly suicidal +nano damage setup(Like Thedevil had/has) can kill docs without NBS, but your defense would get really low.

[sannz]

DM caps almost all the time: http://auno.org/ao/db.pp?id=275692
And even if it doesn't cap, it does 5-6k dmg to a doctor easy.
Well, I'm counting NBS since it's the only way to kill a doc that isn't sleeping behind his desk. Also, a completly suicidal +nano damage setup(Like Thedevil had/has) can kill docs without NBS, but your defense would get really low.

In PVP DM does 15% of the targets hp in dmg and not 30%, since all dmg is cut by 50% in pvp. NBS does not affect that.
Btw, your doc would have 33-40k hp. Not really that realistic.

:edit: CA & BC are rather slow perks. Rather use BC during alpha buildup and CA right before Supernova hits.
Follow that up with ADQ and NF. that can be timed with IU, DM and the Triple. That's your 3 second window in which you peek your DMG.
You could always go with a CoF & Zap Nano just before CA&IU just to add a bit of confusion.

If you're realistic, those 3 seconds are really the max you have to alpha a doc. And the earliest realistic moment for that is around 13-15sec into the fight. So much for a "quick alpha"

I have to admit though, NT vs doc is rather balanced if the doc is not using a Troa'Ler. I know, that's a bad joke, but thinking back to pre-troa'ler times, I had some pretty good and balanced fights with docs. That was ofc while perked nr1 or 2 and with a few IS/TotW stims handy

[Venachar]

Stop bashing each other over the head, because moderation is OP and I'm going to prove it soon. Arguing over ideas is fine, arguing about each other and personal insults is not.

[Sromp]

Bump for dueling doc/NT. Najade, are you back? You used to kill me so hard.

*Bashes Venacher over the head*

[sannz]

From time to time. The odd hour in between. MCITP preparation is killing me -.-

guess you hang up that medsuit from the last 220 ding?

[Wyoming]

Shade vs Shade tends to be down to different specialties, and Shade vs Doc is only difficult if the Doctor has AS, and if they don't have more than about 23k hp you can kill them between heals (those four seconds are enough for four well-timed perks, which tends to be the last three PM ones and perhaps Nano Feast for good measure). Combined with Sneak attack, it can be lethal.

[whitey]

Ninja Edit, got some facts slightly wrong

In PVP DM does 15% of the targets hp in dmg and not 30%, since all dmg is cut by 50% in pvp. NBS does not affect that.

15% HP is the damage done at 100% nanodamage, and all additional nanodamage adding to the overall %.

Example - if you have a 50% nano damage bonus (150% nanodamage total) to would add an additional 50% of the base 15% damage, resulting in a 22.5% HP hit (150% of 15%). DM appears to cap at 30% hp (or 200% total nanodamage) - meaning it is impossible to cap DM on anyone with reflects (I could be wrong here - it requires more testing).

On the topic of NT vs doc (having some experience of both) - NT doesn't stand much chance overall (without NBS). It is possible to kill a doc in def focus but it takes some luck (resisting malp spam/init debuff procs) and perfect synchronization of nukes and perks. Def focus NT will be hard, if not impossible to kill without AS, too.

[sannz]

Ninja Edit, got some facts slightly wrong



15% HP is the damage done at 100% nanodamage, and all additional nanodamage adding to the overall %.

Example - if you have a 50% nano damage bonus (150% nanodamage total) to would add an additional 50% of the base 15% damage, resulting in a 22.5% HP hit (150% of 15%). DM appears to cap at 30% hp (or 200% total nanodamage) - meaning it is impossible to cap DM on anyone with reflects (I could be wrong here - it requires more testing).

On the topic of NT vs doc (having some experience of both) - NT doesn't stand much chance overall (without NBS). It is possible to kill a doc in def focus but it takes some luck (resisting malp spam/init debuff procs) and perfect synchronization of nukes and perks. Def focus NT will be hard, if not impossible to kill without AS, too.

That's what I meant about the fight being balanced. Biggest issue being the breakable ubt proc landing on that one lucky hit that the doc got in and not breaking afterwards

:edit: Tested it, and NBS does indeed add dmg to DM as well. Nice to know.

[Aimzor]

There never will be a balance at such thing like PvP for every proffession. If a toon sucks at PvP, it's either that you are not capable of proper PvP (then just stop trying) or that the proffession realy sucks at it and you just should play another toon. If you keep insisting to play that toon just make the best of it (ergo buy an AS pistol) and stop complaining.

If there would be balance, it would be boring since every one will make the next proffession, only making people relog there next Y twink when they see X proffession running around. In responce that X person would relog again for it's next twink countering Y twink, creating a loop.

Battle of Relogging.

Best balanced PvP I've seen was Doc VS Doc for a full hour.