Hard counters

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I've got experience with a couple of toons, just recently built a fully decked out ranged advy, and before that built a fully decked out engi, and before that built a fully decked out crat, and before that built a fully decked out MA, and I'm working on a trader and a doc atm.

Now, I don't claim to be good. Heck, I know I'm not, so this isn't about skill, instead, this is about: What prof can you beat almost 100% of the time, without even really trying?

There's a buttload of fixers on Rk2 right now, so, I had lots of chances to duel them. Fixers doing pretty good right now, and very popular, and fun to play so thats cool, but, seems to me the hardcounter to fixers is ranged advy. I can beat them every time. Not even close. I also haven't met a doc I could beat yet either.

Ranged advy hard counters fixer

Doctor hard counters ranged advy

Engineer hard counters soldier

Who else has some experience to share?

[Johnnykay]

Everything vs. non-trox keeper.

[Dysfunction]

Everything vs. non-trox keeper.

False, trox/non-trox keepers can beat NTs if they don't kite or miss their roots. Keepers can also beat crats fairly easily if they have MR

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Actually, I saw a keeper beat the piss out of a SMG sold like 5 duels in a row, and he didn't even use his bio regrowth in a few of them.

The keeper was a far cry from endgame gear to boot.

Enf is a hardcounter to MA's, but so many Enfs fail to use MOTR appropriately that it's laughable.

[Lazy]

nt hardcounters low hp fixer

[Johnnykay]

Engineer, Enforcer, MA, Shade all hard counter bow MP.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

crat hard counters doc

what hard counters crat? I think it's supposed to be MA, but most MA's get roasted by a crat who knows his ass from his elbow.

[Dysfunction]

crat hard counters doc

what hard counters crat? I think it's supposed to be MA, but most MA's get roasted by a crat who knows his ass from his elbow.

I believe EC3 soldiers, from what I've seen recently

[Gatester]

Enf is a hardcounter to MA's, but so many Enfs fail to use MOTR appropriately that it's laughable.

What? Is this a duel against MR using enforcers only thing or actual PVP situations?

MA's have more evade def than an enforcer can reach with static AR, how do you expect to die on an MA without being MR'd?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

What? Is this a duel against MR using enforcers only thing or actual PVP situations?

MA's have more evade def than an enforcer can reach with static AR, how do you expect to die on an MA without being MR'd?

what? are you trying to be a hypocrite or just being really retarded?

In a duel or in a random encounter it makes no difference.

ES has a CD of 10 minutes, slowdown has a CD of 1.5 seconds.

If you have MR, go for it, but you certainly don't need it.

And, WTF gatester, since when does "static" AR on an enforcer mean anything?

Thats like saying, my "static evades" on my advy mean I'll get perked by every soldier 219+ Don't be dumb.

[Dysfunction]

What? Is this a duel against MR using enforcers only thing or actual PVP situations?

MA's have more evade def than an enforcer can reach with static AR, how do you expect to die on an MA without being MR'd?

Ever heard of the - 1k debuff? It does land eventually

[Gatester]

In a duel or in a random encounter it makes no difference.

And, WTF gatester, since when does "static" AR on an enforcer mean anything?

Thats like saying, my "static evades" on my advy mean I'll get perked by every soldier 219+ Don't be dumb.

Duel with MR, as in without MR you should win 99% of the duels against an enforcer. This is not typical of the majority of PVP and should not be counted as a hard counter, otherwise:

Atrox shade with MR hard counters everything. The problem here is primarily that you are using the breed rather than the profession to determine the hard counter.

If an enforcer does not have enough static AR to perk an MA through his static def then an enforcer cannot perk the MA. This means an enforcer requires his LE procs to fire to perk an MA with 100% check perks. How can an enforcer kill an MA without perks?

An MA can setup to have enough evade close to never die to an enforcer without MR, I believe that makes it a hard counter. Shade suffers from the same hard counter from any evader as they are also perk reliant.

Enforcers have a setup to hard counter doctors as well.

Ever heard of the - 1k debuff? It does land eventually

1500 nanoskills against 2500-2700 NR without UWoS running.
It is a 1.5 second casted cap time against a triple hitting melee profession with high interrupt rate and several stuns.
MA's can greatly reduce an enforcers nano init and increase the interrupt rate making it even less likely to successfully cast.
It costs a lot of nano and cannot be chain casted for too long.
It stops the enforcer from casting challenger, rage, mongo, or absorbs.
MA's can drain an enforcer's nano pool and prevent them from casting it.
MA's can use an AAD perk to still avoid being perked.
MA's with top evade close can use limber+DoF together and still avoid being perked by 100% check perks.

It has never landed on my 220 MA.
I rarely land it on my enforcer, I forget how few times it landed when I tested it against an orgmate but it was less than 1/10 against his MA.

Even in my health setup where I can be perked by enforcers, I am able to avoid being alphad by an enforcer because I have heals, heal perks, a ring which can heal me for 8000 health, and I am immune to stuns.


If slowdown lands, you got unlucky, but even that does not guarantee you die.

[Lazy]

i dont think static means what you think it means...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ya gatester, you need to try harder man. Enf is not as gimp as you make it out to be.

Trust me, slowdown lands, you just need to try. UWOS NR buff only lasts 15 seconds.

[Lazy]

also, no self-respecting MA trip wields in pvp. wtf? what kind of pvm cupcake bs is this?

[Gatester]

i dont think static means what you think it means...

Stats available at all times controlled by the owner of the character?

I'll make this very clear with an actual setup.

1he/1hb AR focused Atrox setup

Skill Levels:
ABILITIES	STATS
Strength - 1392	Max Health - 26231
Agility - 895	
Stamina - 1342	Shields - 306
Intelligence - 767	Reflects-  3
Sense - 692	Dam. modifier - 421
Psychic - 752

MELEE	SPEED	
1-hand blunt - 2763 (with 1hb buffed)	Dodge - 1456
1-hand edge - 2538	Duck - 1456
Fast attack - 1920	Evade - 1456
Brawl - 2156	Nano Resist - 3073 (1873 without rage)
Sneak attack - 1712	Run Speed - 3202 (2002 without rage)
Dimach - 1227	Nano Init - 2333

EXTRA VALUES	COMBAT VALUES
AAD - 915	Dodge def - 2371
AAO - 751	Duck def - 2371
Heal Delta - 117	Evade def - 2371
Nano Delta - 9	Attack Rating - 3514 (1hb) / 3289 (1he)

I posted all that just to show how suicidal reaching that level of AR on an enforcer would be and that it actually goes beyond what is reasonable for a PVP setup.

This setup barely has more health than my MA, has no survival, and cannot chain cast, but it reached 3500 static attack rating with challenger. Could give up 50 AAD for 32 1hb/1he and 1500 max health, but this setup is already beyond reasonable limits (Ado brain/combat research device).

The MA in my signature should have an evader module and with CiB 10 and notucomm in would have 3378 static evade close, 3578 with limber running. If I used my pen ofab body armor and 230ish boots of dancing king it puts me at 3464 evade close, and 3664 with limber. (A set of CC would even out defensively)

40 or so AAD from a tower would also be easy to acquire, just saying.

The result: Static enforcer AR in an imaginary setup iis < static MA evade close in a typical MA setup. An enforcer cannot perk an MA who is geared for PVP, let alone geared to fight an enforcer. Enforcer PVP at 220 is dependant on perking their target. MA is a hard counter for enforcers.

ya gatester, you need to try harder man. Enf is not as gimp as you make it out to be.

Trust me, slowdown lands, you just need to try. UWOS NR buff only lasts 15 seconds.

Trust you?

<- 220 MA
<- 220 enforcer

If slowdown lands on you constantly then you need to adjust your aggdef, there is no other excuse. The advantage in MA nano resist is about 1000 more than an enforcer's nanoskills to land slowdown. UWoS means you have about a 2000-2500 NR advantage long enough to DRAIN the enforcers nano pool empty.

<- 220 MP (I also know how difficult it is to land nanos with 2300-2500 nanoskills)

This has nothing to do with enforcers being gimp, there are professions enforcers hard counter afterall. MA's simply have a clear advantage defensively against an enforcers offense and has every tool necessary to prevent them from dieing. You have no excuse other than MR and bad luck.


I believe I have defended my claim that MA's hard counter enforcers, perhaps you could try proving that an enforcer can setup to almost always beat an MA instead?

also, no self-respecting MA trip wields in pvp. wtf? what kind of pvm cupcake bs is this?

I was thinking of my MA in the PVE setup in my signature that I would take into BS...Was fun against enfs, soldiers, shades, and keepers considering I could actually kill those with a PVE setup. Also the AS pistol is a joke when you have 23k max health but that is besides the point.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ok gatester, fine, you asked for it.

Your assumptions are faulty because:

1. no MA in game who ever PVP's swaps his CC boots+chest for Penultimate ofab or SOS or dancing kings PERIOD. Also, any self respecting MA MUST run in offensive gear BECAUSE if they don't they can't perk enforcers, and let me tell you, thats not a good situation to be in.

2. Whatever you think about MA's draining nano pools in 15 seconds is RUBBISH. Go look up MA's capabilities, and you will see it is impossible unless they are NR perked. Just looked it up: MA can drain 2k instantly+750 per tick for 6 ticks over 60 seconds (total of 6500 over 1 minute), and using sister merciless, 5k over 15 seconds. For a total of 2750+5000=7750 over 15 seconds. Most enforcers have 10k-12k nano, which still leaves you at LEAST 3 casts of slowdown, and, genius+battle kit+stim will give another 4, poping viral larvae, a bunch more. So, That argument is garbage. If an enforcer isn't expecting to have his nano drained by an MA, he's not even worth talking about in this discussion because he most likely won't even know to use slowdown. (only 1 needs to land anyway)

3. Whatever your crap about "static" AR is the biggest bullsh*t assumption I've ever heard. Enforcers have the best staying power of any prof in game, which means no matter what, now matter how bad you screwed up your nano refilling, you're still not dead, and you won't be for a while. which means you can STILL try to fight. Damage shields up, rage, normals, highway, blind rings, use your arsenal. low check perks, AI perks, it's not like just because your nano is gone means you can't win. Get some procs up and put some pressure on.

Reliance on LE procs means USING YOUR TOOLSET. they have a 5% to fire rate. If you're spamming specials and normals it WILL fire. But you don't need it to to win.

Damage shields, normals, one low check perk and well timed SA can kill a MA.

Add slowdown, and you're guaranteed to land your AI perks. that is enough to swing the battle.

From what it sounds like, you haven't pvp'ed on your enforcer enough to know how to beat an MA. Either that or not finishing your toon has probably skewed your perception of him. Try dinging AI 30, finishing research and gearing up.

I played my MA for 4 years and PVPed all of the best enforcers on RK2, and trust me, the good ones are impossible to beat. The best I can remember was Marbreth. Forz is also very good, but Marbreth had consistently the best timing and never let you take advantage. out of 20+ duels I beat him once. And FYI he didn't need MR. MR was icing on the cake.

[Lazy]

Stats available at all times controlled by the owner of the character?

I'll make this very clear with an actual setup.

1he/1hb AR focused Atrox setup

Skill Levels:
ABILITIES	STATS
Strength - 1392	Max Health - 26231
Agility - 895	
Stamina - 1342	Shields - 306
Intelligence - 767	Reflects-  3
Sense - 692	Dam. modifier - 421
Psychic - 752

MELEE	SPEED	
1-hand blunt - 2763 (with 1hb buffed)	Dodge - 1456
1-hand edge - 2538	Duck - 1456
Fast attack - 1920	Evade - 1456
Brawl - 2156	Nano Resist - 3073 (1873 without rage)
Sneak attack - 1712	Run Speed - 3202 (2002 without rage)
Dimach - 1227	Nano Init - 2333

EXTRA VALUES	COMBAT VALUES
AAD - 915	Dodge def - 2371
AAO - 751	Duck def - 2371
Heal Delta - 117	Evade def - 2371
Nano Delta - 9	Attack Rating - 3514 (1hb) / 3289 (1he)

I posted all that just to show how suicidal reaching that level of AR on an enforcer would be and that it actually goes beyond what is reasonable for a PVP setup.

This setup barely has more health than my MA, has no survival, and cannot chain cast, but it reached 3500 static attack rating with challenger. Could give up 50 AAD for 32 1hb/1he and 1500 max health, but this setup is already beyond reasonable limits (Ado brain/combat research device).

the setup you posted has a smidge under 4k ar if it stacks chall procs (252+170+27) and even more than that (almost 5k) for double AAO check ai perks. before MR. that's enough to perk a fixer through limber without MR. however if you include chall procs and make a SANE enfo setup you can easily get 3.5k selfed AR. and not counting chall procs when every pvp enfo with half a brain stacks them is, imo, silly.

[Xirayne]

Tweaked your setup, gates, for more effectiveness; http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=184920
should be ~3556 1hb AR, ~3366 1he AR (if your numbers were correct), 911 aao with top chal. The 160 more AAO compared to your setup means 320 more AI perk AR. You could add 1hb lox mems and change a few other things such as masterpiece combat tuner (for the 10 aao) for more.

That being said, a skilled and proper setup MA still has a fairly solid chance vs an enfo due to the debuffs, high defense, and the ability to tank an alpha with on demand heals and stun immunity. In my opinion slowdown was added in an attempt to balance the MA hard counter vs Enfs

1. no MA in game who ever PVP's swaps his CC boots+chest for Penultimate ofab or SOS or dancing kings PERIOD. Also, any self respecting MA MUST run in offensive gear BECAUSE if they don't they can't perk enforcers, and let me tell you, thats not a good situation to be in.

You might also want to add sureshot glasses to your list of things you should swap

[Gatester]

1. no MA in game who ever PVP's swaps his CC boots+chest for Penultimate ofab or SOS or dancing kings PERIOD. Also, any self respecting MA MUST run in offensive gear BECAUSE if they don't they can't perk enforcers, and let me tell you, thats not a good situation to be in.

2. Whatever you think about MA's draining nano pools in 15 seconds is RUBBISH. Go look up MA's capabilities, and you will see it is impossible unless they are NR perked. Just looked it up: MA can drain 2k instantly+750 per tick for 6 ticks over 60 seconds (total of 6500 over 1 minute), and using sister merciless, 5k over 15 seconds. For a total of 2750+5000=7750 over 15 seconds. Most enforcers have 10k-12k nano, which still leaves you at LEAST 3 casts of slowdown, and, genius+battle kit+stim will give another 4, poping viral larvae, a bunch more.

1. I said my MA, as in the gear I had to swap (did forget my sureshot glasses though, I knew there was something for head slot). If you wish to point out better defensive tools that an MA could use and boost that evade close even higher then be my guest, I simply wanted to use my actual setups to prove my point.

I also perk AI 3 on my characters since they are not AI30, so swapping is rarely an issue for me. The point of determining a hard counter is also whether a profession can make a setup that always wins against another as well. An MA has a viable setup which can guarantee a win against an enforcer as long as you do not make any mistakes.

Your main problem is that you cannot get 2.5k attack rating to perk an enforcer.

2. Atrox enforcers average 7000-8000 nano pool...no enforcer at 220 has viral larvae equipped...no 220 enforcer in a pvp setup has genius 2...and I actually tested the land rate and it was either 1/10 or 1/9 chance to land against my orgmate.

Damage shields, normals, one low check perk and well timed SA can kill a MA.

People who have MA's that die to that should play another profession.

I played my MA for 4 years and PVPed all of the best enforcers on RK2, and trust me, the good ones are impossible to beat. The best I can remember was Marbreth. Forz is also very good, but Marbreth had consistently the best timing and never let you take advantage. out of 20+ duels I beat him once. And FYI he didn't need MR. MR was icing on the cake.

I have had some long talks with the MA professional solairtist. I think I will trust him instead of you. He has almost no losses against enforcers, says slowdown is not an issue, and he says you should never lose to an enforcer in a duel if you use your toolset correctly. The fact is that someone other than you can win practically everytime against any enforcer but you lose almost all the time to enforcers.

The only one claiming hard counters from consistent losing is yourself, I claim a hard counter based on my MA's experience as well as solairtist (if I spelled it correctly), tifs experience, odyceusses experience, as well as others.

the setup you posted has a smidge under 4k ar if it stacks chall procs (252+170+27) and even more than that (almost 5k) for double AAO check ai perks. before MR. that's enough to perk a fixer through limber without MR. however if you include chall procs and make a SANE enfo setup you can easily get 3.5k selfed AR. and not counting chall procs when every pvp enfo with half a brain stacks them is, imo, silly.

The chances of landing one proc is already 1/20 with every successful hit, having to swap procs after it fires and landing the second one within 60 seconds is not likely at all.

The point of that setup is that it is not viable for PVP and still cannot perk an MA who sets up for evade close without relying on LE procs, which are easily countered by any decent MA. Realistic (or sane as you put it) PVP setups for enforcer can have 3350 AR or so, which means they can perk some MA's with the LE proc, which again can be countered with a plethora of tools available to an MA.