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Thread: Space Combat Discussion

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Galilei View Post
    If you damage a spaceship with any kind of weapon and it explodes as a result, you'll end up with millions of little "bullets" that disperse to every possible direction from the said explosion. So I think it's irrelevant what kind of weapons are used since the end result will most certainly cause huge amount of debris travelling at various speeds - if the shooter does not have the armor to withstand the hits of the debris, he probably dooms himself at the moment he decides to fire those guns (assuming when fights happen at close range).
    That is very true. The issue is, combat has to occur. While Gatester suggested eWar, it's entirely possible for either:

    a) The enemy is using fighters or ships with isolated systems to prevent hacking (See: Battlestar Galactica)

    b) The Aliens are using a biological based technology which we cannot hack/disable by conventional means.

    This will result is fighters or capital ships having to slug it out. The Accord would be a means for Navies of the First Class to minimize their impact by restricting weapons, since these navies would have the most amount of weapons deployed.

    I think Arid quests mention that Kyr'ozch ships have shields so you would have to find a way to disable/overload them first before you get to damage the ships.
    If you'd be able to get a quote of this from IG that would be awesome to catalog!
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    If you'd be able to get a quote of this from IG that would be awesome to catalog!
    Luckily I had saved the quest logs. Here's the quote:

    Sheri Tater: Pardon me, for not being very comprehensible.
    There's increasing alien activity in the southern parts of the canyon. Apparently, a huge ship has been seen hovering over three tower-like structures... We need it gone, but no one has even been able to damage it because of the shield.
    Me: Surely the Unicorn Commanders have interest in this? They must be able to do something...
    Sheri Tater: Yes...
    She nods.
    Sheri Tater: The Unicorns have assured their support, but they already have too much on their hands. As long as the shield is up not even their weapons can damage the ship.
    Me: Would it be possible to disable the shield?
    Sheri Tater: It's the tower structures that keep the shield up and running.The towers can be jammed. I'm not very technical myself, but I got a pretty good explanation from Demolitionist Hock via the COM link.
    She recites from her memory.
    Sheri Tater: There are three different methods that can be used.
    Spot jamming focuses on one single frequency, radiating intrusive signals to block the towers... ... thing.
    Sweep jamming shifts the frequency repeatedly, allowing the jammer to block a wide range of frequencies in quick succession/session.
    Barrage jamming is similar to the previous kind, but with the ability to jam multiple frequencies at the same time instead of shifting... things.This is apparently not as powerful.
    Me: I didn't really need the explanation... Just give me the devices.
    She bites her lip.
    Sheri Tater: We don't have any of those devices and yes I'm aware we are in the era of Nano bots, but they need to be compatible with the Kyr'Ozch technology. Hock told me the best result would be accomplished by building them with Kyr'Ozch components.
    Well, it seems it was the towers that kept the shield up but nevertheless it's said that Kyr'ozch has the technology for shields and possible are using it in their bigger ships.
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  3. #23
    It is indeed interesting.

    Humans have shield technology (See TMS/AMS, NS, etc).

    At the very least this does indicate that the Aliens have a similar understanding.

    I'd wager that the towers are not so much providing the shielding, as much as they are facilitating it operating at a level which make the ship impervious to attack. (A level the ship's ability to generate power simply can't do on its own)

    Thank you for providing this.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    That is very true. The issue is, combat has to occur. While Gatester suggested eWar, it's entirely possible for either:

    a) The enemy is using fighters or ships with isolated systems to prevent hacking (See: Battlestar Galactica)

    b) The Aliens are using a biological based technology which we cannot hack/disable by conventional means.

    This will result is fighters or capital ships having to slug it out. The Accord would be a means for Navies of the First Class to minimize their impact by restricting weapons, since these navies would have the most amount of weapons deployed.
    Hence why I believe the smaller ships would be the ones using primarily projectile or energy based weaponry. The larger the ship then the more vulnerabilities it would have to electronic warfare, and the more defenses against those attacks used on a ship also reduces its own viability in any type of conflict. You can wear a massive steel box without holes for "armor" and be impervious to almost any attack, but you would be unable to do anything as a result (and likely suffocate shortly after as well). It would be no different than relying on ground troops even with incredible advances in technology due to the restrictions actual conflicts create.

    To supplement the smaller combat ships would have to be boarding ships as well. In both cases you provided the smaller ships would be necessary to allow for openings, either damaging ships to create points to land or disabling ships to make boardings possible. This furthers the need for individual troops and smaller ships which are armed rather than massive ships.


    Considering we do board the kyr'ozch ships rather than destroying them with weapons (other than orbital bombardments which I also mentioned as the form of weapons large ships would be limited to) I believe it would coincide quite well with the current setting. The kyr'ozch also seem to have matter transfer capabilities which I would say is a great avenue to pursue as well.

    As for the shielding alternative, even if you can avoid smaller weapons some damage would get through, and if the projectile was a massive capital ship then no amount of shielding will be enough. If they are fighting above a planet and the ship crashes through to the surface, then the resulting impact of a large enough ship would be catastrophic as well, which I believe NONE of the corporations would have wanted (why destroy the resources you are fighting over?) In the end, stealing or disabling what others are using rather than destroying the majority of it seems to be the most viable and I believe the Unicorns themselves would have prioritized boarding parties as the primary means of space conquest.
    Last edited by Gatester; Jun 14th, 2012 at 23:11:16.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    As for the shielding alternative, even if you can avoid smaller weapons some damage would get through, and if the projectile was a massive capital ship then no amount of shielding will be enough. If they are fighting above a planet and the ship crashes through to the surface, then the resulting impact of a large enough ship would be catastrophic as well, which I believe NONE of the corporations would have wanted (why destroy the resources you are fighting over?) In the end, stealing or disabling what others are using rather than destroying the majority of it seems to be the most viable and I believe the Unicorns themselves would have prioritized boarding parties as the primary means of space conquest.
    This is largely apparent from the distinct lack of Ground Based Orbital Defence (no the notum cannons are NOT aimed at passing Kyr'ozch ships).

    As for the boarding idea, it is very largely represented throughout the game. Both AI city raids and LE missions mention boarding the enemy ship to take out the high-command and bring the ship under your control. The only mission in the game that requires you to place a destructive device on board is ofc, the Bomb Daily mission.
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  6. #26
    An interesting discussion on combat.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CKcrUkfgw&t=29m40s
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  7. #27
    That was distracting. It did bring up a very valid point that allows for deep space combat but I find that to be a very unlikely occurance. Large ships would not likely be fast enough to allow for the kinetic weaponary to even be in range to begin with. Fitting a large ship with countermeasures for energy weaponry would allow them to get close to each other, but then they would be relying on kinetic weapons at that point (probably see the other ship a day or so before you can even reach them unless we bring up point-to-point light speed travel...). Still, it would be possible to eventually get in range with two large ships in deep space and eventually hit each other with a marble and win.

    The resulting explosion, which would have been the strongest argument against it, should not apply in deep space combat because the debris should not be able to move as fast as the ship could, not even close. Within planetary orbit the resulting debris would be too dangerous as was mentioned. As I said at the begginning though, deep space combat is simply unlikely. Trying to intercept a traveling ship in space, not going to happen. Finding them is difficult, catching up to them while they should already be traveling at max speed is likely impossible, and getting them to stop long enough to engage you in combat is not going to happen. There is no reason for ships to not be near either planetary bodies or astronomical events, other than to hide, which they would be doing quite well.


    Now, large ships could be fitted with the energy weaponary as an anti-dogfighter tool. Dogfighters should be unable to generate enough energy to affect each other, let alone a large ship, unless they were close enough that other weapons would be more effective. Large ships should be able to generate the energy needed to hit one at a distance and destroy it.


    All things point back to dogfighters, boarding ships, and eWarfare for me, but to take an imaginative view at this...I would say magentic weaponry that would pull itself toward the targeted ships, and also have some sort of hyper-magnetic portion that would highly magnetize the entire target forcing it to implode upon itself and avoiding any explosive debris. Now you have a single massive hunk of metal debris which you would need to "guide" around an planetary body like a satelite and then proceed to force it out from orbit and send it off into space, hopefully toward something like a sun or uninhabited planet of no economic value.

    I'll stick with eWar

  8. #28
    I agree that eWar would be a large component of space combat.

    I think the issue wouldn't be so much about trying to catch a ship which is currently in transit. Looking at vessel speeds it's just implausible to think that a vessel would be able to detect travel, plot an intersecting trajectory and launch a weapon which would intercept the vessel.

    This is where I think subterfuge and eWar would shine. If you know the vessel's course, you could setup a field to disrupt it's travel and knock it back to sub-light speeds for engagement.

    And you're right on point regarding smaller vessels. We can see them today in AO so we know the OTNF are employing them. Non-Alien fighters can be seen in the sky during alien raids, and the Alien Mission start room has an Assault Pod thing which allowed the player access.

    I do very much like your idea of magnetic weapons. They could be defeated by Hull defenses, but in my visions the Human warships are only able to have so much defense. So it boils down to weapon type used verses the type of armor the target is sporting.

    I love this topic
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  9. #29

    As Above, So Below

    Thought I'd bring up that there's already a couple weapons in the database that make references to space combat:

    Premium Heavy Gamma-Beamer: The Gamma-Beamer is a refurbished space-tech weapon, used to penetrate heavily shielded ships.

    Exellent Ares Arms AR-90 Jet Rifle: The jet rifle was originally built for use in space, but got popular for planet use after the Houracidee Show (the episodes where Captain Jalle visists the caves of the wrapped women) [...]

    Premium Steiner LM-5 Assault Laser Icon : This laser uses Steiners looking-glass shaft and zummer-portholes. Verona Steiner is more known for producing factory-lasers (and lay waste vacation-moons). This is her only attempt at making arms. (I'm assuming it means "laying waste to vacation-moons")


    Those are the main ones I remember. As for what technologies I like to believe are used in naval combat, based on weapons I see on RK:

    The Original Plasma-Emitter: A historic weapon. Noteworthy for being the first to shoot plasma blobs.

    Asia Toys - Mathis Multi-Energy Rifle: The Mathis has been - and is still, in popular use by many small armies, on planets throughout the galaxy. It is a free patent, [...]Most energy weapons use the energy in the charge both as accelerator and projectile, whereas the Mathis effectively draws upon solar powered batteries for the firing, saving the whole charge for projectile power. Hence the 'multi-energy' title.

    Premium GE XM-559 Man-Portable Laser: Originally developed for being mounted on vehicles, the XM was later modified for use with personnel.

    Ill-Treated Disaffiliation Sniper: [...] Firing contained balls of energy that erupt on impact, it can do considerable damage in the hands of a skilled marksman.

    Old English Trading Co. Type 77a: The T-77 was a fairly forgettable [...]released by the Old English Trading Co. in 25407 [...]The design is actually innovative though, using an early type of bullet glazing and a primitive, electric propulsion accelerator. The Type 77a is a retro-release of the gun, using carbo-ceramic bullet glazing, nano-propulsion accelerators and SemiSmart nano input.

    Sako J21P-103-8 Response Rifle: [...]The P-103 is one of the very few guns that can benefit from using nano-propulsion rings. Those are mounted inside the barrel, and the P-103-8 has got eight of them.

    OT PF57 Flechette System: Just before the beginning of the 5th Corporate War, MTI and Omni-Tek undertook a joint venture to produce a close-combat flechette-based assault rifle, the PF55. When the cooperation ended, OT continued the production. The all purpose bullet is shaped into metal darts are enclosed in a sabot that protects the dart during propulsion initiation and firing. The darts are small, and rely only on their aerodynamic shape for stabilization. It yields low accuracy but high damage output. On the OT-only version two-tone nano filters are added, together with the miniature propulsion accelerators from the PF56.

    MTI SL70 RX Razorback Gargantua: [...]This version actually disassembles the shell casing and send minute slivers of metal trailing the larger projectile, shredding the target.

    I tried to put them in a rough estimate of when I'd expect the technology to have been released. You'd notice the first couple weapons near the top are listed as being almost historic weapons, publicly available, etc. The next couple cover refinements of the technology, and as you go lower you notice that nanotechnology starts making an appearance in nano-propulsion devices and bullet modifications (ceramic glazing, flechette systems, bullet shaping). Remember that Nanotechnology didn't exist before the discovery of notum; also notice that certain companies seem to be using certain technologies. Considering the cost and production time for capital ships, I'd expect to see a hodge-podge of differing technologies using everything from completely conventional and historic but still viable weapons systems to nano-pylon/primitive augmentations weapons to high-end technological "flagships" with up-to-date notum-based charge weapons and possibly some rudimentary spiritech. Each of the corporations would be using their own patented technologies which would cause strengths and weaknesses to develop within their varied fleets and technologies. I also agree that eWar would most likely exist in space, probably similar to passive programs like what crats/engis/keepers use. The Clan pads mission on noob island for example states that the healing packs the soldiers are using do not seem to work very well within the Alien fields. This could be due to the fact that they use a similar form of "field" warfare that either affects nanobots or uses their own version of that system to interfere with our own "fields."

    End of my excessively long weapons post :P Next up! some thoughts on inter-ship battles.

  10. #30
    I'll make this shorter. Essentially I see most combat being similar to that shown in the newer Battlestar Galactica series. There would be broadside attacks followed up with dogfights and landing parties as both sides vie for advantage against one another. Newer, more up-to-date ships that rely on nano technology (essentially eWar ships) would dart between combatants trying to fill a multi-role position as both spec ops and possibly anti-fighter roles. Corporations will of course each have their own twist on each technology, but I see them relying heavily on conventional weapons (gauss cannon/mass drivers, energy weapons and plasma) which are augmented by nanotechnology.

    I don't see missiles being popular if nano-field eWar is used in space: missiles would be one of the more vulnerable targets on the battlefield. They would also be very inefficient against shields under most situations. Missiles, being munitions, aren't a very cost-effective use of nanotechnology or countermeasures. I see fighters as being the lowest entity where rudimentary countermeasures would be used. Even if ineffective, the pilot should be capable of flying their ship. On the other hand, mortars could well be used for planetary bombardment. I expect the amount allowed would be limited to military installations, as anything more would interrupt galactic trade and could be used to influence things such as market prices, which ICC wouldn't take kindly to.

    As for spent munitions that didn't hit their target? Most would probably be sucked into gravity wells and either burn away in atmos or glitch against space station shielding. Energy would eventually dissipate, nanotech would eventually become inert from the loss of notum. Larger munitions might pose a problem, but this might be mitigated if combat is only allowed in unpopulated or non-viable solar systems. Afterall, who cares if an atrox gets hit by a meteor, as long as he's on a world with no viable resources.

    I also don't see vessels exploding. With limited oxygen available, I'd expect large ships would just depressurize and become derelict. As a secondary thought, I wonder what breeds are used by the corporations in space combat and how it'd affect inter-ship battles. Could the guys riding blaster beetles be old SOL troops?

    Anyways read the entire discussion so far and there's some cool ideas here. The idea of using magnetism in a defensive system is definitely nifty.

  11. #31
    sticking with the rk storyline i'd go with a nanite based projectile, timed upon firing to simply break the molecular bonds of the projectile, leaving nothing but a cloud of harmless dust.
    you could have ammo with different timers depending on location and situation, range of targets etc.

    that way u can have your uber array of defense cannons and no worry of strays doing something unintended.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by crimson View Post
    sticking with the rk storyline i'd go with a nanite based projectile, timed upon firing to simply break the molecular bonds of the projectile, leaving nothing but a cloud of harmless dust.
    you could have ammo with different timers depending on location and situation, range of targets etc.

    that way u can have your uber array of defense cannons and no worry of strays doing something unintended.
    Your suggestion is simple and elegant. I like it.
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