More Structure Please

[Psikie]

What I would like to see is a direct answer to what the current developers see in each proffession. Let me explain that before I go any further.
In the begining before expansions and boosters AO was pretty simple to define tanks, healers, DD, or support. You could of course bend those rules a little but it was at cost of giving up what your prof was naturally strong in. IP's were less back then so you could make a DD crit doc but your nanos sucked. Or make a max healing support MA at cost of DD ability.
The problem I see is that with each expansion or booster those roles have been blurred. I can even tell you it started with NW when you had enforcers and doctors hot swapping with x-3 or caterwaul aimed shot rifles. To balance that caterwaul rifles were made agent only. Now at this point it would have been easy to keep AS agent only as this is probably one of the most decisive pvp elements in game. Another example take a look at advy, they used to be luke warm middle of the road jack of all trades masters of none. Dual wielding a pistol and sword. Now they are a top DD and 2nd best healer in game, with AS/sneak/dimach/brawl/fling/burst/Full auto/fast attack. The can do anything and do it all well.
Now granted one of the best things about AO was that you had flexibility to make your toon out of the box like a MA trader instead of shotgun. But in current AO there is no tradeoff or downside for having an assault rifle enforcer. Now i'm not advocating to make proffessions cookie cutter, but I would like to see more defined roles.
How to do this you might ask? How do you make weapons more class prefered without making them all class specific? You change the way specials work. Dimach is on 30min timer unless you are shade/keeper/ma. Why not do same with Aimed shot and sneak attack? Would that tip the balance for pvp too much to the profs that have that short recharge? Maybe, maybe not, but it's just an idea. I just don't understand why in the current game world every class can use AS just as good as agents or SA just as good as shades. Even crit setups almost as good as MA's and cap you without too much trouble and not much tradeoff.
I am sure this will not be a popular idea. So I've got my firemans gear on for the flames. This is not meant to take away from anyone's creativity in character builds.
I just feel the game loses something when you see a keeper hotswapping a craphander for AS and it just seems wrong. Can I get an amen?

So in closing I'd just like some form of answer about how the developers see each proffession.

[drainbamage]

I'm not going to flame you but I'm going to disagree with you (partially, anyways).
AO currently is more "structured" (in the sense you use) than it ever has been. Symbs, perks, research and other factors all conspire to lessen flexibility.

The problems you describe - keepers swapping for AS and other similar issues - are simply the playerbase reacting and adapting to what is essentially an unfair and broken system. AOs combat scales very poorly; it's obvious that it was never intended for use in an AO where modifiers and bonuses are as high as they are today, which is why there are so many band-aid fixes and scaling issues. That keepers are using AS despite them having no real support for it doesn't mean that keepers lack structure, it just means that keepers and/or AS are broken.

That said I do agree that the availability and power of specials needs to restricted or adjusted for certain professions, but in turn many professions need to have their profession-specific toolsets adjusted so that they aren't reliant on stupid things like AS pistols. The combat mechanics also need a thorough overhaul.

[Kuegen]

But in current AO there is no tradeoff or downside for having an assault rifle enforcer.

Well actually, there is. No perks, IPing dark blue skills, no buff support or armor support (AI armor/perks are the exception to these downside, but dont allow much alleviation). Its not just AR enfos though, 2he fixers get no support, even MA traders have no research lines to benefit them.

My problem is the lack of consistency. Some proffessions are extremely cookie-cutter, or limited in choices. For example, a keeper gets to use 2he. That's their only choice. On the other hand, a class like enforcers get a lot of choices, 1hb,1he, 2he, and 2hb will all be somewhat on par with a keeper. However, a keeper and enforcer are still limited. An enfo has more choice, but they are ultimately doomed to the weapons that their class description dictates. Look at doctors now. They have research support for (iirc) Heavy weapons, RE, pistol, and MA. What? Doctors use pistols I thought? The other three weapon choices are hardly related to pistol, yet the doctor has such a choice, despite class description. Traders, especially froob ones, can be decent with almost any weapon type.

So what kind of game is this? Can we choose which weapons we want to use? or are we limited? And by what method are we limited? Too much inconsistency if you ask me.

[Psikie]

Thank you both for being constructive.

Do you think limiting AS to 5-10min timer except for agents would be bad? Or limiting AS shot weapons to not have fling/burst? Same for Sneak attack being on simlar to dimach timer?

How do you give proffessions focus without limiting creativity too much?

[Mostadio]

How do you give proffessions focus without limiting creativity too much?

The illusion of variety. Giving a profession the ability to choose between 2 or more weapon lines while maintaining their core toolsets (nanos). Soldiers have variety in that they can go high HP/AR build with assault rifle or lower HP/high dmg with SMG. Nothing changes with their toolsets, however. They still pop AMS when in trouble and press burst/FA every 9/12 seconds. The same thing with engineer. Pistol engi and grenade engi have only cosmetic differences. One bases damage on a crit setup while the other goes for +dmg. In the end, they're still using pets and doing DPS. Same thing with 2he/2hb/1he/1hb enfos. It doesn't matter what weapon is in their hands, they're still casting mongo.

As for AS, it was one of the stupidest mechanics put in the game. A high damage hit that never misses... gee, I wonder why everybody uses it...

[drainbamage]

Thank you both for being constructive.

Do you think limiting AS to 5-10min timer except for agents would be bad? Or limiting AS shot weapons to not have fling/burst? Same for Sneak attack being on simlar to dimach timer?

Eh... I don't think that would be a good way to go about it. I've never been a fan of the idea of trying to balance an overpowered ability by giving it an excessive cooldown. Even at 5-10 minutes it'd still be a large-damage, always-hit special you could pop off with a quick swap. It might cut down on its usage in BSes or protracted fights but even then it'd still be something you have to do to maximize alpha damage.

I think the best solution would be to rework the mechanics of AS (and other specials) completely. Make it so that AS isn't just something you can swap a weapon for and use effectively but something you need to specifically build and gear for. So you could still have a keeper with AS but the benefit would be a lot smaller, perhaps even becoming a net negative.

[Kuegen]

I remember being surprised when I hear aimed shot could be used in pvp without sneak... So i have to sneak for a mob not attacking me (or run real fast), but I can AS a player who is already attacking me? I wonder what it would be like if AS/SA required sneak in pvp (or did it use to?)

[mcnurja]

Thank you both for being constructive.

Do you think limiting AS to 5-10min timer except for agents would be bad? Or limiting AS shot weapons to not have fling/burst? Same for Sneak attack being on simlar to dimach timer?

How do you give proffessions focus without limiting creativity too much?

this just sounds like someone got alphaed by trox shade from sneak and went emo

[Psikie]

this just sounds like someone got alphaed by trox shade from sneak and went emo

Haha I only duel. I dont get snuck up on.

[Manicmouse]

Sounds like your main gripe is with AS, and that is getting changed with The Rebalance (tm). IIRC it will be an interruptible attack that will take a few seconds to fire. Agents get an extra secondary attack (like back stab).

[Gridpain]

IPs were less "back in the days" ??

[Psikie]

Sounds like your main gripe is with AS, and that is getting changed with The Rebalance (tm). IIRC it will be an interruptible attack that will take a few seconds to fire. Agents get an extra secondary attack (like back stab).

Not so much, my gripe would really be lack of continuity. Ive literally seen enfo's that hotswap Full auto/burst plasma/nophex (what ever its called) and then AS craphander/x-3, then a sneak attack-dimach weapon as part of their alpha. Now this sounds crazy but i know you know what im talking about.

Without changing equip times- which would nerf hotswapping what is a good suggestion?

[Mostadio]

FA/AS/SA will all lock each other out.. whenever this rebalance happens. I suppose that'll fix it.

[Manicmouse]

Not so much, my gripe would really be lack of continuity. Ive literally seen enfo's that hotswap Full auto/burst plasma/nophex (what ever its called) and then AS craphander/x-3, then a sneak attack-dimach weapon as part of their alpha. Now this sounds crazy but i know you know what im talking about.

Without changing equip times- which would nerf hotswapping what is a good suggestion?

If an enfo wants to use full auto and burst it's all good, their special AR will be rock bottom and it wouldn't scratch a greenie.

AS being fairly effective for all professions is the issue. Other specials miss in weird swaps.