8,000 evades... (NR thread)

[Pomidor]

Since we still can discuss about rebalanse and things that should be reworked, I will take a little time to point major broken mechanism called NanoResist. This game is based on nanoprograms and it seems that nanoprogram classes have more power/adventages then any. Counterpart to that is that player can skill or even train his character into nanoresist.

Evades are working perfectly in favor of evading classes. Every evades from lvl 130 (by one button) is twice powerfull and we know that hiting such target (speaking of twinks vs twinks) is rather impossible. Tested it thousands of times and differance like 300-400 in AMS vs DefCheck makes hiting target like 1/10-12 (thats at tl 4 and 5 ofc). So, makeing character with 8000 evades would render it impossible to hit, or chances to score a hit would be like 1/97 (since we have setup 3% hit build in game or something like this).

So, as I speak of 8,000 evades I clearly don't see perkline in any proffesion toolset, which would add such ammount of defensive skill in evades/duck/dodge. Thats a fact. But we have NotumRepulsor line... And now I figured out, that devs from FC knows theer is something wrong with NR mechanism. Otherwise, they wouldnt put such powerfull tool... But its not powerfull at all. Something is wrong.

At tl2 (back in 49 BS range) I made NR char with over 920 NR selfed (Enf with rage, NM). I could counter most of roots/drains. But from tl3 it seems to not work at all (NR, that is). Same enf with NR perked, buffed NR, with skill at 1900 is drainable easly (1-2 tries), rootable, ect. Tested over 200 Nanoatacks and it looks lik 60% stuff lands on 2nd try, 15-20% on first. Went further and with some enf at lvl 150 we trained NR5, which made our skill at over 7k NR. And effect was, we were still drained easly (I was drained on 3rd try) and UBTed (I manage to counter few roots).

NR perked should protect any player from any Nano attacks/hostile action, and trade-off is less ar/speed/dmg ect. I belive that was the point. But its not that way at this moment.

So, either there must be something very wrong in NR skill check, or its supposed to be, that every Nano Class (Trader, Doc, NT, Crat) has adventage by design.

At this moment NR is serious flaw in game design and imho, it should be adresed first, before any changes made to proffesions itself.

[Ciex]

So you actully complain that its not enough to have 8000k nr at the cost of 8 perk points? Can i get 8k aad on my NT at the cost of -5000 weapon skills? Or even better 100% weapon/perk dmg resist at the cost of -250 nano skills? If nr perk is fine because i can swap cyberdeck on my nt with for example treatment rifle and just own all those nr perked people with 20 point aimedshots they could just be given offensive nano like summon snowball with 20 dmg to have a fair fight with me.

The question is why exactly things like nr perk line exist because its used for easymode pvp point farming on traders, nts and mps. 8 perk points to negate whote profession toolset?

[Belligerence]

I'm kinda surprised about this one, TBH. Usually it's a 'nurf NR! *cry whine emo*' not the other way around. At the cost of 8 perk points and any hope of casting -any- nanos, you can negate a whole professions tool set.
I find it extremely hard to believe that UBT landed on you with NR5. Not impossible, just hard to believe that UBT landed when NR5 offers like 40% resistance to the UBT line. And if you truly want to be immune to roots/drains/UBT, train NR8, it offers 100% resistance to multiple lines, as well as a huge amount of Nano Resist.
Also, can I get 8k evades at the cost of all my weapon skills on my NT please? (Never mind, seems Ciex had the same train of thought)

[Obtena]

I think that the UBT landing phenomenon is one of those deep AO coding mysteries, much like the capped initiatives that was recently discovered. It can't really be explained based on the current system and makes NR feel like it's broken. I too think that NR doesn't really work, not because the mechanics ingame are broken but because it simply doesn't seem to do what it seems it should do when you compare it to getting a similar amount of evades for instance.

I would like to think that if you discard a huge part of a specific toolset, you should gain near invulnerability to the hostile elements of another players same toolset. The sacrifice is actually double ... an NR twink looses ability for selfcasting and perk points. The reward for that isn't reflected in what you gain for NR as a defense in most cases. Sometimes, nanos will still land on you. That kind of sacrifice shouldn't be left to chance, it should be definite. If landing nanos on an NR perked twink is chancy, then maybe that the ability for an NR twink to selfcast nanos should be equally as chancy.

[Rurounin]

You can't really compare getting 8k evades while losing weapon skills, since NT's doesn't use them at all. All professions uses nanoskills, and that's what they give up for perking NR. Not saying that NR8 is balanced, just that your reasoning to compare it that way is beyond silly and stupid.

The way you see it is purely as the off vs def, while it's my belief that it's actually about toolset vs def. Gain an advantage while losing another.

[Ciex]

I understand Rurounin, thats why i suggested -250 nano skills for 8000 evades on NTs. Nts use nano skills, dont they? Should be around the loss of ar for nr8 shade or keeper. Gief nau FC!11!

[Lazy]

I understand Rurounin, thats why i suggested -250 nano skills for 8000 evades on NTs. Nts use nano skills, dont they? Should be around the loss of ar for nr8 shade or keeper. Gief nau FC!11!

for ar profs every point matters. nt's just cb3, root and then trololol doubles. as long as you have the nanoskills to cast everything you're golden.

[Obtena]

Actually the analogy between NR and nanoskills is Evades and weaponskills. For example, if the logic is that you lose nanoskills perking NR, then wouldn't the same logic apply for Cib? Acrobat? Shouldn't a profession lose AR for gaining evades from perks as well?

Unfortunately, perking NR is a biased and zero-sum proposition, while perking evades is a no-brainer, win-win one. That's a disparity that should be addressed.

[drainbamage]

NR is a dumb bandaid fix implemented by lazy fools and it has no place in a properly rebalanced AO

[Obtena]

Good point. IMO, the NR check should be replaced by nano blockers, just like FC's proposal for how parry will work. Probably reasonable for the short duration hostile nanos being implemented in PVP.

[Belligerence]

'Your nanoprogram was parried!'

Gogo I want this to be how parry works after rebalance!

[Burgly]

Wtb 55% check nano that lowers 3k def by casting 3 times :/

[Armus]

I just dinged 220 on my nt and sure there are some shades that can be annoying but most of them have very poor attack rating so they can't do much.

[Djiax]

Tested over 200 Nanoatacks and it looks lik 60% stuff lands on 2nd try, 15-20% on first.

This is ****ed up. This kind of "test" is why people are complainin since years that NR "doesn't work". This kind of "fact" exists only in your mind, cause probabilities doesn't work like that. You implying that the probability engine "remember" what you scored in a previous roll. It doesn't... Chances of a successfull roll are the same no matter if it's your 1st try, your second try or your XXXth try.

That NR "doesn't work", i might agree, if you talking about how they designed it ; i believe Nanoskill vs NR mechanics/probabilities are super close if not exactly the same as AR vs evade are for normal attack. According to that, i think NR works exactly as intended, and after playing my NT for years, this is what i observed ; needless to say i don't believe in "I got 15k NR and i m still drained easy whaa whaa". But nano program / nuke doesn't compare well with normal attacks and shouldn't share the same system.

What is missleading is that nanoprogram pretty much needs to land only once to **** you up, or in case of the infamous tripplzor, it does so much damage in a single time that it's conparable to debuff's case.

So, proposal :
In the case of debuff, NR should lessen the effect (say, a 300 pts drain could effectivly range from 50 to 300 after taken into account opponent's NR).
In the case of nukes : KEEP the same landrate system IF they have short enough recharge so that you can get close to the theorical average, like it happens with normal attacks. OR, lessen the damage / nuke, according to opponent's NR. Or mix both system.

An hybrid system for debuff where NR would affect both landrate and the effectivness of the debuff would be very hard to balance i think, hence why i think hybrid system could work only for nukes.

Now, that some very specific bug might occurs, like UBT landing too much, or i don't know, maybe it's true, but untill i see a serious test about this i ll keep thinking people are just 1 : very bad at maths and doesn't understand the basic of probabilities 2 : doesn't take into account all the time they did counter UBT (cause, yknow, anyway it's lost in the log, and you notice it only when it DOES land). In either way it just shows a lot of stupidity from that NR whiner crowd !

[Pomidor]

Djiax, in one thing you are right - that, if hostile nano will land, you are f'd up. In other cases, you are wrong. Firs of all, NR doens't work same as evades. If you have problem with this, just made simple test: attack target with 3k Evades, haveing 2k AR and see result after first 5 tried, then repeat it 10 times. Then attack with 2k AR with Nano attack on targt with 3kNR, do 5 attacks, then repeat it 10 times. See numbers. (be sure to have same TL lvl characters).

If I, as a player, sacriface AR (from around 150 to 400), Defence, healing abilities or whastover class will lose by haveing Nano on -7000, I would like to be atleast vurnerable to all Nano attacks. Ofc, 1 stun + alpha will get me down, but still, thats what I will think when I meet melee...

[Burgly]

Thing is, nanos are spammable, if u got 2k nano ar and ur target got 4k NR, u can just spam until it lands, if some1 with 2k ar tries to perk a person with 4k def its a different story, so its not really the same mechanic :S Would be like if u just spam clicked a perk and it landed eventually even tho ur AR is not close at all to ur targets def. But ofc regular hits might act more like nano ar vs nr, u will eventually land a regular hit.

I myself have been CB'd in nr8, its extremely rare, but it does happen even tho it should not, imo.

[Djiax]

Just made simple test: attack target with 3k Evades, haveing 2k AR and see result after first 5 tried, then repeat it 10 times. Then attack with 2k AR with Nano attack on targt with 3kNR, do 5 attacks, then repeat it 10 times. See numbers. (be sure to have same TL lvl characters).

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...=559857&page=6

I trust that guy's tool more then anything else because i think he did some proper testing before figuring out what he think is the correct algorythm for nanoprogram landrate and normal attacks landrates, which means rolling hundred / thousand check in the same conditions, not just 50 like you imply. Nevertheless, i d like you to explain me why you put it that way : "5 tries, then repeat 10 times", rather then a simple "roll 50 times" ? This is a mark of amateurisme once again, that i can't take seriously, unless you can explain me exactly why you d need to do 10 x5 tries rather then 50.

Now if you are interested about probability distribution (and this is indeed what matter for debuffs, since you indeed wanna know how many time you win before that the debuff land, ie how many tries you counter generally), this is a thing you can calc only *after* knowing the average theorical landrate.

So let's check what these tool gives us as far as landrate go for 2k AR vs 3k def :
2k nano AR vs 3k nanoresist (AAO/AAD not taken in count), with defender @ full def : 33.27%
2k weap AR vs 3k evades (AAO/AAD taken in count), with defender @ full def : 38.17%

tl:dr about this tool, it gives always a bit more landrate in favor to normal weap vs evade, from 1% to 5%.

Now the distribution. Can only gives 2 basic exemple because i don't know the math to calc the theorical distribution given a defined % landrate. Let's roll with a 50% landrate so it is simpler :

1 = success 0 = failpalm

Case 1 : lands on 2nd tries 100% of the time
0101010101

Case 2 : lands on 1st try 50% of the time
101001000111


Yeah and i forget, an other solution to fix NR design for debuff, would be to consider that the more NR you got the more time you win before that the debuff land (like it is at the moment, except it's very random). But we'd eliminate randomness totally. So we need to add a new stat, we could call "nano min-max landing time" which could be varying for each nano or not, depending how dev want to achieve balance. Simple exemple :

"Marius's point at you"
This nanoprogram debuff your Max Health by 100k
nano min-max landing time : 10 seconds

33,27% theorical landing rate to take the exemple above. This would be converted to a timing nerf to the landing time, so at 33% it would take an additionnal 6.6 seconds after casting it to land on your opponent.

[Pomidor]

Each attack is rolled independandly. This is makeing NR attack even more sillier and dangerous at once, because its clearly visable that mechanics arent working. If I can't hit a target that has more Evades then my AR by 400 within 10 tries, then I hit him once, then 5 none, then 1 another hit then 3 none its 10% of accurate attacks. This will be reapatable, and by any calcs I will get around this number (it varies betwean 8-13%). But If I got attacked by player with 600AR less kill then my NR (like MC vs NR), I will have at top 33% chances to counter program. Whats more interesting then those actual numbers, that UBT seems to have landing chances better then anything (compared i.e to roots, which I counter most). After all experiance, I'm still more then sure that NR has it serious flaws and require deeper look into.

[Djiax]

Wtf !

[Ninewood]

op is definetly right about nr being broken. even high numbers in nr give very little protection. nano resist is a part of this game, and it should be reworked. as to how is another question. but i do definetly agree, that the protection nr gives you is in no relation to how hard you have to push to actually see an effect. that you can easily drain, nuke and ubt people with triple nr compared to your nano ar just isn't right. and i'm sorry, but i do fail to understand anyone who can't see this. and i don't need to tool or anything to state this, more than a couple thousand rounds of bs are enough "testing" for me.