Friday with Means - Sept. 23rd, 2011: Initiative Data

[Lazy]

You people should actually try this "Ridiculously easy AO PVM" with a toon that was made WITHOUT a sugardaddy and billions of credits.

i was tanking ado hecks in fp enfo without much trouble and without any real twinking on my 150 agent the other day. he was wearing a couple pieces of combined, but i feel that it's a detriment in pvm as +hp gear is better in those slots and the sps has a stupidly low mbs cap. so a "newer" player with a 150 agent would wear cheaper +hp gear/+nano/+nanocost in those slots and probably do better. hell hte only symbs that are really necessary for that level are chest and brain. brain is questable if they have friends (most people join an org by 150 that will help them) and chest drops off gms for a couple mil. a mix of miy and ofab and LE hp hud would do better for pvm than combined. i'll admit i had reactive chest + igph which helped quite a bit but it's nothing a ci can't overcome. ado hecks/dark ruins is basically the "proving grounds" for new players. it's where you l2p before heading off to inf. ironically it's also where most profs start to be interesting. you start casting your top non-level locked nanos at that level and you start finding funky gear that is actually useful (high ql miys, ql 200 symbs, ado brain, lv2 le huds, decent weaps, etc)


EDIT: my point is that the really expensive armors (combined) are NOT meant for pvm. you don't wear them to pvm. in fact if you wear them in pvm they USUALLY do more harm than good and can be replaced with cheaper armors that actually perform better.

i.e. for a pvm doc a cure for baldness at 150 (worth like 5m) is better than 225 combined (worth a couple hundred mil) so crying that pvp gear is expensive and hard to get when all you're doing is pvm is silly.

[Lusos101]

Yep, you just have to play according to your level of experience and ability to equip your toon.

For example im leveling a new toon atm that I equipped with a few bits here and there gathered easily (with my main) and am killing mobs 20 levels or more higher then him, with just a "few"* creds on equipping it. A few buffs from my 220 toons and he is ready to go.

A new player can as easily kill green/grey mobs.


Teaming is for gimps. Real men dont team.

*Compared with a real twink ofc. Just a few dozen millions really. Easily farmed in noob island if I wanted to.

[Gridpain]

Just a few dozen millions really. Easily farmed in noob island if I wanted to.

Come on ....

Let's stop the bull!

Do you know a player starting the game that will stay on noob island to far "a few dozen millions" ?

It's almost as funny as the post sooner answering "try the game without sugardaddy" by talking about a toon with couple of AI amor and a iGPH...
Where, for a new player, geting imps over QL 100 is not easy.

[Lazy]

It's almost as funny as the post sooner answering "try the game without sugardaddy" by talking about a toon with couple of AI amor and a iGPH...
Where, for a new player, geting imps over QL 100 is not easy.

If youd have ip`d literacy youd see that my point was that you dont NEED any of those to pvm. I could do BETTER in pvm if i swapped the ai armor for miys and ofab and the gph for a hardcore cpu. Ai armor is neither needed nor helpful in pvm.

[haxi]

Maybe people will stop soloing so much then, that would be nice too.

How much soloing is too much in your opinion? Do you find it preferable that people would solo / dual log in order to have any way to progress or just stop subscribing due to a serious lack of players to team with in some (most?) time zones?

[Gridpain]

If youd have ip`d literacy youd see that my point was that you dont NEED any of those to pvm. I could do BETTER in pvm if i swapped the ai armor for miys and ofab and the gph for a hardcore cpu. Ai armor is neither needed nor helpful in pvm.

Yes, what I m saying is : for you, the main difference between you and a new player is the iGPH and AI armor. That's the catch. It's not.

For exemple : Implants : Over QL 100, you have to TS them. So either your first toon has NP or you have to make a 2nd toon dedicated toTS, or you have to farm creds to get someone to do them for you. Or yeah, find an org that is willing to help you with implants / ADO quest / even getting past spirits in scheol to go to ado etc etc.

What I mean is :

AO is easy mode for people that have played some time and have a buffing toon army, toon to farm creds with, established in org etc etc.

AO is not easy mode for new players.

A "small change" like uncapping inits that will probably not affect vets much, and, sorry to have not too much faith, but this change has probably not been tested at all levels / places, and are likely to {mess} up new players.

And do we really need new players to quit the game ?

[Neon_1]

If youd have ip`d literacy youd see that my point was that you dont NEED any of those to pvm. I could do BETTER in pvm if i swapped the ai armor for miys and ofab and the gph for a hardcore cpu. Ai armor is neither needed nor helpful in pvm.

I think you are not arguing about the right issue here. The issue IS NOT the game being too difficult, even for newbies. You dont need uber gear to do basic things of your profession in early/midgame, until you reach ado (like said here). However the real issue of starting to play Anarchy Online is KNOWLEDGE. That is the reason why many people quit before their journey has even begun. Let me open up that a bit;

- There isnt much info about gameplay or essential items that you will need on your way at the start of the game.

- There isnt any info about implants, and how to make them yourself (is this fixed nowadays in noob island). Also, the implants cost far too much creds for new players. (same question, has this been fixed nowadays ?)

- There isnt any good ways to make credits to get basic things early in game

- For basic stuff like income, you usually need to farm some things like rings from subway (does anybody buy those any more ?), or farm stuff from missions with Clicksaver. Clicksaver is an external program, that you need to learn and get used to at start. There is no mention of that whatsoever anywhere

- For leveling places, there is not any info after subway, maybe totw. Those who have bought expansion(s) hopefully find their way to SL somehow, if they havent started from backyard that is.

- Nowadays there is automatic IP-expenditure ingame, which is good help for starting players to get little hold of things. However there isnt any good guide for what skills you need and what you absolutely dont.

- You can solo your way to 100sh with just killing basic mobs all over the place or doing easy missions, but after that you need to team. There isnt any "quests" or other info to find your way to popular leveling places or Dungeons. You have to search all of them from forums/webz.

- Same goes with what is good loot/armor/items/implants/symbs

- Also after 100, you really start hitting the bottom unless you are having moderate implants and some basic gear (Miys, carb etc.) and weapons at your disposal. You many times see newbies with low RK-weapons at Ely, or some occasions even at Ado. That of course comes from OST/kiting, but doesnt explain all. Then those people are amazed that somebody could do over 1k dmg with Full-Auto, or that somebody can actually hit mobs with fast-attack.

- The difference and effectiveness of weaponry/items are totally differend in RK/SL, and that isnt explained anywhere eather.

- Farming stuff for yourself as a newbie is challenging, since either it is hard to find info about where to get new items/parts, but also if you happen to find info and get there, to have 100+ levels higher toons camping stuff for sale/alts (predators armor... -.-)

- Now you can also say, that those items dont cost more than few millions, but I never had more than 3-4 millions most at my main toon when I started this game before I was level 120sh or so. Solely higher level implants+clusters cost easily millions.

- Getting things done ingame require big social network or preferably dual account with 220. Encouraging socializing is a very good thing, but nowadays when getting 1-2 buffs takes 1-2 hours, its very frustrating

- Connecting to previous point, when you want to get for example implants made/on, you need to find grafter and possibly 1-10 ppl to buff you up. Of course you dont need that much for lower level stuff, but eventually you need that.

- Getting teams is lot easier now due to LFT, but there isnt much people to team with, especially if you are newbie.....ever heard of....."Hey, sure, lets team. You have OST ? No ? Ok, dont bother then". Getting teams gets easier when you know what and where to look, but newbie doesnt have that luxury.


Those are just some examples from low level play, and thats just a scratch. Many will say that most of those problems are solved by getting to a good org with even some active members, but that isnt exactly that easy eather. Again, there the knowledge helps a LOT. Then, you can say that "If you cant find decent org, just change and get to a new one.". Yeah, thats what we all do, all day long, right ? People dont have the patience to look colossal amounts of info just to get started in the game. I dont want to say that AO needs to be like WoW or anything similar, but some basic guidelines/quests INGAME wouldnt hurt eather. And some basic items (implants/armor/weapon) should be easy to obtain, more easy than now.

The gameplay and the actual killing part isnt hard if you got mediocre setup and have a clue how your profession can perform, but seeing NT/MP/Crat/Trader running away from basic mobs at Ely, shooting with starter pistols or level 20 nukes is just sad. And that IS NOT just because they are lazy or hecknoobs. Its because the KNOWLEDGE of AO is currently the biggest currency of an AO-newbie, and that currency is hard to obtain. Its easy to forget that as an veteran, where you have done the same **** over and over again for soon 10 years, but for a NEW player in AO, that is still one of the biggest challenges that you will have, in good and bad.

[Saetos]

*Compared with a real twink ofc. Just a few dozen millions really. Easily farmed in noob island if I wanted to.

Thanks for the siggy.

[Gunfytr]

Try to make a new toon from scratch, without creds / support of your own toons/org.

try to find an org, try to level.

Then talk about AO being easymode.

Sorry if I wasnt more clear, but I was referring to endgame encounters.

[Aeliniyah]

Dude, AO pvm is so easy that it's not even funny. If you have put no IP into anything and attack a mob that's red, then OK, it's hard. If you go around on newbie island, then there's nothing that's actually difficult if you use your IP. Subway is easy too.

I recently tried Rift. I found it fun for a while. A very short while. I had my account there open for two months. During that time i managed to level one toon to 48 (50 was max) and three others to 35+. During that time, i never needed to ask help from anyone. I never had ANY difficulties to SOLO anything i needed to solo. Only teamed for the World events and instances. There was nothing i had to think through before doing it. That was easy. Thats why it got boring during the first two months.

I've played AO for over six years. That would've never happened if this was easy game like the new MMO's are.

The super easy gameplay in AO, means that a twinked character can easily kill red mobs 20+ levels higher than himself. At the same time, someone new to the game, who will have a lot of difficulties to afford any of his/hers professions nanos and the implants (even the ready-made implants are very expensive for a new character when you need to do about 50+ RK missions and loot and sell everything to get a full set), will have a hard time killing even greens.

The real difficulty and fun in AO is the ability to make those said twinks. And when you put a lot of effort, time and creds to equip your character to the max, it is pretty much the reward from doing it, that the mobs will be easier to kill after it. And there are a lot more professions in AO than Crat, Doc, Enf and Soldier. Try MP for example. It's almost impossible to find teams for MP, because people think they can't do any damage, and they don't offer anything else for the team that some other prof can't do 3x better. It's also very difficult to solo anything worth soloing unless you use the shield (at which point you will actually blow your damage dealing potential out the window). There are other professions with similar problems. I think only Crat, Doc, Enf, Sold, Shade and 215+ NT are the ones getting teams relatively easily, and for raids and instances, those are the only professions that get invites.

AO is super easy for some professions and for veterans with loads of creds and gear to spare.

A couple years ago i tried starting from scratch in RK2. I managed to level up to around lvl40. At that point the choice was either continue leveling up as a total gimp, or stop to farm creds 24/7 and gear up. I kinda lost interest with the toon. I guess i could continue a bit. It's not that hard to make the credits and all. It's just boring as hell at that level. At the moment the said toon can't even solo the greens anymore. Even a small train in totw gets it killed.

[Aeliniyah]

i was tanking ado hecks in fp enfo without much trouble and without any real twinking on my 150 agent the other day. he was wearing a couple pieces of combined, but i feel that it's a detriment in pvm as +hp gear is better in those slots and the sps has a stupidly low mbs cap. so a "newer" player with a 150 agent would wear cheaper +hp gear/+nano/+nanocost in those slots and probably do better. hell hte only symbs that are really necessary for that level are chest and brain. brain is questable if they have friends (most people join an org by 150 that will help them) and chest drops off gms for a couple mil. a mix of miy and ofab and LE hp hud would do better for pvm than combined. i'll admit i had reactive chest + igph which helped quite a bit but it's nothing a ci can't overcome. ado hecks/dark ruins is basically the "proving grounds" for new players. it's where you l2p before heading off to inf. ironically it's also where most profs start to be interesting. you start casting your top non-level locked nanos at that level and you start finding funky gear that is actually useful (high ql miys, ql 200 symbs, ado brain, lv2 le huds, decent weaps, etc)


EDIT: my point is that the really expensive armors (combined) are NOT meant for pvm. you don't wear them to pvm. in fact if you wear them in pvm they USUALLY do more harm than good and can be replaced with cheaper armors that actually perform better.

i.e. for a pvm doc a cure for baldness at 150 (worth like 5m) is better than 225 combined (worth a couple hundred mil) so crying that pvp gear is expensive and hard to get when all you're doing is pvm is silly.

If someone has managed to level up to 150, i don't consider him being a newbie anymore. And btw, Perennium weapons are not newbie friendly weapons either. Also when actual teams without pockets still used to kill hecklers in elysium, the typical level range was 90-140. After that (or often around 130) we used to move to ado. 150 toon in ely was typically laughed at.

The "only 5m" cheap gear you mention is not cheap for someone who has just started to play AO. 5 millions is a lot of money for a true newbie without a sugardaddy. Even the couple of millions needed for a full set of ql 100 profession implants and the next couple of millions needed for nanos required for lets say lvl 50 toon require a lot of work to get. And a lot of research in the forums and asking from other players to figure out how to actually make that money. AO dont have any tutorials that tell new players about the ways to make money. Or what items are worth more when sold to players than shopfooded to vendor. Not to mention the fact that they don't know about clicksaver, nanonanny and other required tools and maps.

[Mastablasta]

I'm surprised to hear you say NTs get teams since LOX I have never been invited to a team the times I tried LFT for endgame stuff. Random stuff like specialist required areas gave hits, but commonplace stuff like Xan bosses, and dustbrigade after it lost the new-factor? No, never.

[Lazy]

Also when actual teams without pockets still used to kill hecklers in elysium, the typical level range was 90-140. After that (or often around 130) we used to move to ado. 150 toon in ely was typically laughed at.

i was tanking ado hecks in fp enfo without much trouble and without any real twinking on my 150 agent the other day.

once again, literacy helps

on topic, however, between 100 and 150 there's a myriad of things one can do as a new player to ungimp their toon (things that would be explained to them if they'd just ask in ooc channels)

ql 100ish untyped ai weapons are free (farm s10 enterance)
cfb and elysian cuirass for the profs that benefit from them and pred armor is farmable easily in ely provided you're high enough for the adds to be grey. (and all these items are useful LONG after the mobs are grey so don't give me bs that they're not)
miys is both free and farmable at the level you intend to wear it (bit easier as a ranged prof, i admit, but even melee can kite mort borgs in a medsuit with a random high-ish ql rk weapon at lv 90ish)
ql 150-200 imps are free (common rk mish drops)
i clean implants on my fixer for free and put in clusters that i have enough np to put in for free, and im sure most tradeskillers would do the same if they saw someone roll up in carb armor and a pair of sleekmasters.
totw rings and pads are free and aquireable in a medsuit as is neleb's robe.

so that covers armor, back, shoulders, implants and a weapon. everything a toon would need for some heckbashing in ely and ado between levels 100 and 150 and all easily farmable solo. hell if you get extras you can sell them and make a couple mil for your first yalm.
what else would you need? sure, you're not an ubertwink with igph and combined, but it'll get you by til you're high enough to realize you should join an org and make teams and ****. hell miys, ql 200 imps, a vektor nd and cfb was good enough for my doc at 150 and that was my first toon. i wasn't rich and i certainly didnt have a sugardaddy main. i joined a wonderful helpful org that taught me what to do and what to get and where to get it. i know the population is pretty bad but people forget they're not alone in this game. everything i learned when i was starting out was from asking in ooc/orgchat/people i've teamed with.

[Lackofgravy]

AO does have tutorials on youtube and fan sites. People even do workshops for people interested in tips to improve their pvm/pvp style from wall h4x nub to actually not getting reclaimed when you go around a corner with your pet tanking just to help your pet out.

[Aeliniyah]

AO does have tutorials on youtube and fan sites. People even do workshops for people interested in tips to improve their pvm/pvp style from wall h4x nub to actually not getting reclaimed when you go around a corner with your pet tanking just to help your pet out.

AO Doesn't have any tutorials IN GAME! Not one. New games have pretty much all the info needed to play, provided to new players as some sort of ingame tutorial. That is what the general MMO player of the year 2011 expects to see. Hell even most of AO's in game support is mostly done by players, and not FC employees. AO players provide help, tutorials, guides and pretty much everything imaginable, including the third party tools that are essential for playing AO. FC doesn't provide much in that department.

So, yes, there are guides, but none of them is provided to new player during normal gameplay in game at the point, when they need that said guide.

[Mastablasta]

AO Doesn't have any tutorials IN GAME! Not one.

Yes it does.

[Aeliniyah]

once again, literacy helps

Right, sorry about that

Well, afterall my point still stands. I don't consider people who have made it to Ado to be newbies anymore.

...lots of stuff for 100+ people who are not newbies anymore...

All in all, it is doable to farm your own gear when you are over lvl100. This game starts at level 1 though. And while the newbie area holds your hand to maybe level 10, there's not much help for newbies after that. They can't make much money, but they need a lot of it.

Like it was pointed out earlier, the premade implants are not that cheap. You'll need the ql100 imps around level 30-50 depending on how much you'll study and learn about AO's twinking possibilities. At that level there's no s10 token items available. And a set of QL100 imps cost a couple of millions. Which has been a lot of money for of the newbies i've spoken with. A set of nanos, for the same level costs a lot too.

A million credits is very easy to come by, for anyone who has leveled atleast one character to 100+

However a million credits is a lot of work for someone who's main character is, let's say, lvl 50ish.

BTW, none of the examples you provided are attainable for a lvl 50ish character making his way in the world of rubi-ka.

Predator armor is equipable around lvl 60, and even without much twinking around lvl100. Try camping predators with a lvl 60ish toon (which will ofcourse be gimp as hell, because it being your first and only char you are using to actually get some gear to wear). Try OD'ing all those 220's that are there hunting the same bosses for their alts or for sale. I actually tried that with my Doc way back in 2006. It didn't go that well. I managed to get lootrights some times because i had Ithaca equipped at the time at that AS usually took more than 50% of the bosses hp. But usually some 220 just od'd me. After a few months i stopped trying as i had already overleveled the usefulness of that armor, and had my tier set ready.

And there is no such thing as a free implant for someone who has just started the game. There is no chance that a new player would ever be able to blitz missions 3-4 times his level.

You can't count hand-outs either. Some people are nice and they throw the occasional bone to the newbie. Most of them are not. And god damn if that poor newbie ever goes and begs for something, they get so bad verbal beating it's not even funny.

But anyway, feel free to go and hunt for perennium weapon parts, or predator armor with a level 50-60 toon (that is the level perennium weapons for example are needed the first time).

Try also hunting those lvl 120ish medusas or borgs with that lvl 50-60 character to get the QL of miy's armor that you need. Ofcourse some might get lucky and get some from team missions. Most are not that lucky though.

Everything you mention, is indeed easy for a lvl 100+ toon that IS ALREADY EQUIPPED with some reasonable gear. It's not that easy for the toon that doesn't have any good gear yeat and is at the level where they need it the first time. Which is somewhere around 50.

[snurrie]

I hope this years Halloween brings the promised fix to last years Halloween in regards to the "my shirt is QL 300" shirts droprate, and the fact that the QL 1 shirt never dropped at all.

[Aeliniyah]

Yes it does.

right... ofcourse it has... are you referring to the useless tip window, that has outdated info about the GUI?

Or the scheol key guest that tries to teach you about the PB process?

Ok, sorry, i'm wrong. There are guides in game. Hell, there's also the books that give info about some tradeskill processes. damn. Thats huge amount of info right there. Why on earth do we need AO Universe and the likes at all?

[Mastablasta]

right... ofcourse it has... are you referring to the useless tip window, that has outdated info about the GUI?

Or the scheol key guest that tries to teach you about the PB process?

Ok, sorry, i'm wrong. There are guides in game. Hell, there's also the books that give info about some tradeskill processes. damn. Thats huge amount of info right there. Why on earth do we need AO Universe and the likes at all?

The newbie island is a tutorial, dunno if you ever played it.