Friday with(out) Means - July 29th, 2011: Time Keeps On Tickin'

[Flipyap]

there was only one deus ex game before the new one what are you talking about

i heard they were working on some kinda sequel called 'invisible war' or something - shame that it never came out :|

http://store.steampowered.com/app/6920/?snr=1_4_4__13

It didn't?

[Kintaii]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/6920/?snr=1_4_4__13

It didn't?

There was a joke there about Invisible War sucking that I think went over your head. ;P

(i should note that i feel invisible war gets kind of an undeserved bad rep, just because it was trying to be a sequel to deus ex - had it been its own game i think more people woulda liked it)

[Xirayne]

I loved deus ex 2. :|

though I do agree it coulda been so much better than it was

[Technogen]

What are you guys talking about? Why do you keep blacking out words in your post when talking about something coming out?! I am so confused

[haxi]

The possibility to interact with the storyline is always a bonus. Even if we are only there to witness or document the moment, that is enough. Finding hidden lore and extracting some meaning from it is fun. Direct revelations can be good as well! Everyone wants to know why they are here and where they came from/are going. I think anyway.

It needs to feel inclusive, but not focused on myself as a player. No "chosen one" garbage, just a witness to history that gets close enough to events that sometimes a little piece of story gets smeared on their visor and they need to take a bath.

[Nomad]

What made AO special to me was the first storyline, along with the option to care, rebel or do whatever you want. It was all done before in some way, but this game brought it all together with a good storyline, alot of players, and nice physics/graphics with obvious flaws, and alot of them, being fixed as they become clear. What makes a game good, is the amount of players. Theres alot of stuff to do now, so it needs more players then at launch, but that probably won't happen again, and it's kinda sad. The animated series showed a part of what AO could be, but it didn't quite get there. It was about the war setting with clan on omni, but also the other way, with smugglers and black market trading, conspiring with new friends to change the fate of the game.

Shadowlands and the rest, didn't do much for me, it was too far out there to involve the playergroup, the surroundings were good, content and all, but it was like the storyline made it another game. Another thing SL changed, was the weapons and AC and perks and how that worked. Perks were too strong, mobs had too much armor, and this resulted in overpowered weapons.

I liked Alien Invasion, it was a nice addition, without distorting the RK storyline too much. The armor and stuff like that was really cool, the weapons looked nice, but were too much affected by the shadowlands failed physics.

Lost Eden did bring some hope, it was good in theory, trying to boost the RK ongoing battle. Instead it moved focus to a grey battleground in space, with little addition, in my opinion, to the storyline. Research was a VERY nice addition to bring balance, but the weapons, even more showing what SL had done to the game, almost ruined it for me. And it was a shame that Ofab, although I'm sure someone put alot of effort into it, looked worse then the old armor in game, and I mean pretty much everything before and after jobe tier1/2.

LoX is a great addition, to me this brought alot of new interesting physics, and well made gear, although going down the same old shadowland road of failure. Along with all those quests trying to fill the holes in shadowlands and bringing all the expansions closer in terms of storyline, this expansion did alot more right then wrong.

It looks like graphics and content are on the right track, hoping for more players and storyline, I'm just afraid that the rebalance won't help the game enough in terms of combat, because it's way out there, somewhere, right now.

I think the game could benefit from some ingame voices, like from speakers, radio channels, npcs, and so on.

[DarthG]

New Nanos? When?

Since this is my last Year on both paid Accounts, i only have 10 more month and would like to see the new Nanos ingame, but i fear, it will not happen. Took a Year already, and they are still not there...

To be honest, if FC ever wants me to play Secret World, they need to do something veeery special, to catch my interest. Up to now, I will no longer deliver my hard earned Euros for promises and Daydreams.

Have Nice Dice!

[cube]

lawl. wtb toaster oven helmet then.

I am seriously thinking about that request right now... haha

[connall]

The man asked about story, and being a story-focussed player of AO and writer of some traditional rpg story based games, I'm gonna answer.

For me, the story is about immersion. If it has consistency, effect and involvement then its good. If it lacks any of those, then the immersion is broken and the story doesn't work. If you'll permit me, i'll hold forth a little about each of those categories.

Consistency. It's the backbone of story. If the background to your world isn't consistent then you're pretty much bust from the off. AO is blessed with a pretty good background, that's pretty inwardly consistent. The classic stuff and the SL stuff (which is really the only stuff I know about, having been away for AI and LE and LoX) makes sense within itself. Where there are inconsistencies, they are small enough to remain mostly unnoticed. Whilst you can occasionally get away with the ret-con, if you make a habit of it, the immersion is broken and your story no longer matters.

Effect. Your story need to have an effect and repercussions upon the world. Hard in an MMO, for sure, but AO does seem to have managed this in the past (When the sentinels moved into Tir, for example). The trap is the Next Gen Star Trek scenario, where each week they discover that Wesley Crusher is a boy genius, and then the next week he's relegated to being ignored when he tries to tell the crew an "important thing" (TM). If your world doesn't grow with your stories then your players will start to feel neglected and as if their actions are meaningless. And then the actions become a matter of rote; we go through the motions to gain xp and levels, and the story doesn't matter. The game becomes, yet again, just a game, and the immersion built from background and story is lost. We don't expect that every action in the story will have a world-shattering effect, but the cumulative effect of actions should have some effect. IIRC the medusas used to not aggro, but after being farmed for a while, they started to do so. A change for game balance reasons? Probably, but also one that made the world feel more real, as the medusas got fed up with being the ducks in a duck shoot.

Involvement. Your story should be subservient to the players, always. If the story potters along without requiring intervention from the people that it's aimed at, then you might as well not bother. If whatever the players do, the story ploughs on regardless, then it's ineffective. Sure, in a game like AO, where the story _is_ going to move along regardless, this involvement requires a consensus with the players. They get to be involved in the plot, and in exchange they accept that the outcome is likely to be predestined. This particular section is where classic AO won my heart. The plot/story team were so responsive to player action and so determined to put players at the heart of the story that it took online gaming to a different level for me. To offer examples briefly, I remember once staging a sit-in with a bunch of clan leaders outside the CoT building in Tir, until Radiman came out to speak to us. One of the story team jumped right onto the Radiman toon and we were invited into the building and got to talk to him face to face. Another case, the battle at Sabalum - the player clans led that event; we gathered the army and led the assault. Or at least we were made to feel that this was the case. The illusion of involvement was there.

If you can nail those three, then the rest is just a bonus. This is an MMO, whilst it's nice to get literary standard writing, we don't expect it. We don't need story to be high drama, or brilliant comedy, or even much of a cut above your average daytime soap opera - but we would like immersion, and if that's not there, then I, for one, don't get much of a kick from your hard work.

PS: Apologies for the length.

[aramsunat]

For a change I try to be constructive now:

Regarding the question of the OP:
I think by far the most important thing is the atmosphere of the game. But its a very vague word with many components.

What is really interesting in AO is that it has 3 different atmospheres namely RK, SL and APFs (including lox) they are all kinda unique.

SL: In my opinion the atmosphere is great and the storyline is somewhat engaging even though its pretty cliche driven (redeemed = good guys, unredeemed = bad guys) some dialogs made me make funny faces. but otherwise i think its great as it is. No change needed here except for fixing the geometry which has been tormenting some people for a while

APFs: Lox is really well-made. And no complaints about the APFs either. Story is OK too, though thats not the most important thing. I would emphasise the INVASION feeling of it though. I remember being a lvl 55 froob with my very first character, seeing the alien mothership flying over a desert. That was quite a sight! I asked orgmates whether I should run now, when i saw alien fighters flying about. Nice feeling!
Too bad I learned later that its just a prop and appears at every city raid.
Maybe a Desert Rider like unique encounter with the mothership might be interesting. For example a spot in some desert where aliens start pouring out. If you kill x number of aliens (similar to the counter of the desert rider encnounter) then the big alien comes that drops interesting but not powergamer items (similarly to desert rider again)

RK: My real problem is with RK. It has so much potential which is not utilized. I think it just lacks a real design concept. A bit from here a bit from there. AO is a cyberpunk kinda game, and that cyberpunk atmosphere should be emphasised imo. Im not saying AO should copy anything, just make it a bit more cyberpunk. Darker cities, desolation outside of cities all of these are basically present now, just not enough. Proper lighting would do most of the trick I guess. Gags like camelot castle are fun but do not fit into the concept i think (im not saying it should be changed though!). More random npcs (supposing the game engine can handle it) in cities to make them look more crowded city-like. Also I would increase the cities' size especially Old Athen and Borealis. Would make Omni-1 and Rome more dark and yea well... cyberpunk-like. But like I said, lighting can do most of the trick. Utilize the advertising screens to reveal more about politics and history of the place. Brainwash broadcasts n stuff. Make big cities have dark alleys but brilliant colorful neon lights blinking n stuff. Check Blade Runner for more ideas :P

Additionally because half of RK being a desert, the game has a somewhat Dune-like feeling too. I would build on that too. The desert rider encounter was a good move towards this imo. Keep it up

As a side note, it would do real great for the game's future marketing (i hope there will be) if you could sell it as "The first and best cyberpunk MMO" lotsa people like cyberpunk

The story of RK well... it doesnt really exist in the game (i know there is a book written). Its not essential though. Strong storyline is for single player games. But both games need good atmosphere.

I would also change the music, but thats maybe just me. I do not like RK's music at all, well actually im not fond of the music of the whole thing (dont get me wrong, they are great, just dont fit into the game's atmosphere). Funny enough, Unreal's (yea that old game) music fits somehow perfectly to the game.

Just an example, this is exactly how I would imagine Omni Tek's theme music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INwJdtthkek

And this piece of music fits WAY BETTER to the Adonis playfield than it does to Unreal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLos5PGps-4

Like i said the game's music is great just does not fit the atmosphere. For example most of SLs music fit more like to a horror game and RK's music is well... definitely not to a cyberpunk game.

well my 2 cents


edit: i also agree with the before post: the universe needs to be more live. Its been like 4 years or so when omni moved to borealis. that was the last even of its kind. Cmon that should not be that hard to change these stuff every 4 months or so

edit2: while i dont agree that SL is bad, I do agree that it has basically nothing to do with RK and the explanations seem exaggerated. I think it would have made more sense saying its a different planet in the system or something. SL is a closed world on its own and its indeed a refreshing change even though it would bother hardcore story fans.

[omegahealer]

looked at the screens... if those things in the middle are shoulderpieces, give them back to WoW!... first thing that popped in my mind -.-

[Namiru]

Maybe math is not your strong?

This old game with bunch of promises and they ask 18 euros for 1 month
So,we EU players,have more lag(US servers) rubberbadding(often) and we pay more
Is not 1 euro or 2 is double

See the diference.....

Hey, I was not objecting to your comment that Europe pays more. I was just saying your 9 to 18 is a little unfair. Once the upcharge goes through it's more like 10-12.

Only people that can play for 9 is Canadians

[Gatester]

My question to you guys is this: What makes a good story in a game to you? Is it the writing? Is it the *style* of writing? Is it the atmosphere, or the immersion? What is it that ultimately makes you feel a game's story is worth investing in or not? Does the lack of a written narrative bother you when playing, or do you prefer a completely open-ended world without any background or setting at all? Answer if you want. Or, y'know, don't. 'scool either way. Meantime, I'm out - Hope you guys have a great weekend, and we'll see you back here next week. Later!

A good story in a game is one where you are in-fact crucial to the story itself. If a game is to have an actual storyline that matters then the playerbase must have the opportunity to become the protagonist or antagonist. No one cares about a story if it happens in the background and they just happen to be that guy that was around the same time stuff happens.

AO, unfortunately, does not seem to be an MMO where the players support the actual storyline. I have seen a few RP events, but players have not done anything so grand as to force a large city controlled by a faction to turn into a warzone, an alien invasion so significant that a playfield becomes a danger zone and players themselves have to work together to repel them, supporting a shadowland faction to the point where they can improve their military might, or even alter the situations of smaller factions such as the cyborgs. Clan cannot terrorize and omni cannot seem to dominate. The only faction truly matching the RP experience in my opinion are the neutrals.

At the very least, I would think a way to restore the shadowlands after so many years through the efforts of the playerbase, and in that way alter the storyline as well depending on whether or not omni or clan contributes the most, would be an exceptional option. Even furthering how impressiive these story actions can be, given there are two servers, both servers could actually end up with two completely different storylines taking place because of player action in the past and present.

If players are given the opportunity, then those who would normally develop the stories could have most of the work done for them. We wear the factions in game, but how often do we actually act on behalf of our respective groups?


TL : DR

Player involvement, conflicting groups, and distinct changes based on playerbase actions.

[Malentor]

Possibility for player to have an impact on a game's storyline makes for a great experience in my oppinion. You don't see much of it out there, most likely because of the complexity such poses for the game developers, but when it's done it can make for one hell of a game.

I find that mmo's, that focus too much on storytelling through boxes of text, instead of visual storytelling, suffer a lot in these days where cinematic storytelling in games has become the norm (how I hate Bioware RPG's post Baldur's Gate 2). I don't particularly mind the text box approach though, but I feel that there are better ways of presenting the story than forcing players to read through huge dialogues with NPC's every time they hand in a quest. Have the world become part of the experience, have the world tell part of the story, guide the player to the story and the objectives of their assignments, instead of having some NPC crit you for 666 billion points of wall of text damage.

I'm glad I'm not a game designer, because I'd stress myself to death.

[-Stage-]

My question to you guys is this: What makes a good story in a game to you?

Cool characters and themes.

Let's take a popular story-driven single player game. However you played him, J.C. Denton was a cool mtfk. Daedalus was pretty cool too, Icarus was cool and creepy, and Helios was even cooler. Most of the memorable supporting characters were cool. The organisations all had an interesting tone, or face, and were pretty cool.

In my opinion, AO does well in the cool-themes department, but lacks cool characters. Nobody could give a crap about the copy/pasted redeemed and unredeemed NPCs from talking to them, and even if you do the ridiculous amount of gruelling research required to uncover some of the interesting backstories behind them, they're not tied in with the game well and lack personality, having more of an "epic" sort of feel to them, being about long-past things that it's difficult to see the modern relevance of.

There are quite a few cool characters on RK, but they're all a bit one-shot, in regard to how they relate to players. You do the quests involving them, then forget about them for the rest of your playing experience, bar reading the odd item description here and there.

I think to make truly cool characters, you should introduce them, demonstrate that they're badasses by having them do badass stuff, then later use them in various ways that plays off that impression of them you've given the player/reader.

[Xkeeper]

handbags funcom?? You are waisting time making handbags??

[quieter456]

it'll soon be business as usual yet again. =)

What part of a Friday Without Means post with no news of rebalance or engine + half of FC on vacation is NOT business as usual?

It had to be said!

[If6was9]

handbags funcom?? You are waisting time making handbags??

Fear the Purse of Doom(TM).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

For storylines I have an opinion:

I'll go through the quests/storylines I'm aware of:

RK
1. Crash landing on RK. ok, but, once you're off newb island, it's over. 3/10
2. Subway. Good. 8/10
3. TOTW, so-so, not a lot of connections to the faction thing, but a nice interlude. 6/10
4. Biomare, epic. Best sided quests in game in my opinion, dungeon needs work. 9/10
5. Smugglers Den. VERY good. Mantis hive, so-so. fits in, mobs need a bit of work. 8/10
6. COH. Not bad, pretty interesting concept, could REALLY use a follow up in terms of storyline. 7/10
7. IS brings something to the table, as a follow up to TOTW, but, repetitive graphics and no REAL exploration here dumb it down considerably. 5/10
8. Bronto Burger quests: Interesting, not too long,can be done solo at 120 if youre well setup, get decent reward, doesn't really tie in too much with FAction thing. 7/10
9. Bazzits quest. Great quest, BUT, really needs more oomph. XP rewards, a 200 hacker tool, something to drive it home. Would be a great quest to be a starting point for another quest tying FACTION, with ALIENS and UNICORNS together. 8/10
10. Fgrid quest. Quite cool. 7/10
11. DB quest: VERY GOOD. could be another pre-req to the quest that follows bazzits, drawing Dustbrigade into the mix with XAN and ALIENS and FACTION. 9/10
12. DB instances: very good, short+sweet, not too difficult, not too easy, good rewards, but not ridiculous drop rates. IMO, these are great. 10/10
13. PVP quests: excellent. but, there should also be an option to take a quest where you need to kill another player. Ya, flagged is ok but, lets take it a step further. Give a quest to kill 1 or two other players in BS, flagged combat, towers, or duel. As a "PVP" quest, flagging up is hardly PVP. 5/10 good idea, poor implementation.

Shadowlands:
The problem with SL is that theres nothing in SL that RELATES to RK. It's like another world, you go into SL and everything seems foreign, from NPCs right down to mechanics. SL isn't bad, however, its just different. SL has a lot of issues, BUT, it has a lot of really good quests and stuff which makes it a great place. Because nothing in SL relates to RK though, there is a massive disconnect. What does crash landing on RK have to do with garden keys? nothing. So, SL, right from th beginning, and even to this day, it just feels like the black sheep in the family.

SL positives:
1. lots of content
2. lots of interesting mobs, weapons, armour
3. some REALLY good quests
4. presents some great opportunities for learning how your prof works in a functionally different environment.

SL negatives:
1. Has absolutely no tie-ins in terms of storyline to RK (the subway ring quest is pretty weak imo.)
2. Clan omni faction doesn't really translate into SL. REdeemed/unred is just too bizarre.
3. too much content... I know I put this on the plus side as well, but, while lots of content CAN be good, it's also annoying in that it spreads the population quite thin.
4. Too easy to exploit mechanics to level (OSTing).

AI expansion:
Great. Could use some more quests tied to bazzit or new ones to develope the storyline, provide some mid range loots, and AXP.

Notum Wars:
Awesome, and really drives home the faction storyline, but, needs a few updates. more complexity, possibly a few different towers, some mix ups on how gas is calculated even, could use an NPC in the tower shop who gives you a quest to do something which may include PVP, and may give you a new temp quest tower or soemthing... like a raid buff from DB, you plant it and it lasts 24 hours or something, and provides some nice bonuses.

Xan:
Interesting. Arid rift is a bit long for my tastes, but I duel logged it the 2nd time around and I didn't mind it. The 3rd party maps are absolutely necessity. Nerevta is interesting too and not too long. Vortexx is a fun instance, but frustrating if you haven't been able to farm the crystals. Mitaar is a serious pain in my behind. A LOT of players are unable to do mitaar because of even just a HAIR of lag, results in wipes. I'm not fond of these instances, but 12man I think is quite cool.

[SoapTarder]

handbags funcom?? You are waisting time making handbags??

if the purses had the ability to be right clicked, and a trade window opened where you could store creds, then i think funcom would make ALOT of money off them (i.e. - a trade window with 2 text boxes, one you type in credit amount to add, the other you type in the amount to remove).

not sure if the mechanics would be possible, but its an idea if it can be done, wallets too plox... and being trade-able would be an added bonus.