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Thread: Nano-Technician Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    As far as using layers, blinds, calms, and roots after using a defensive go, I believe that all of those nanolines, with the possible exception of layers, should have their nanocosts reduced, just like the nukes, to the point that using them with a very minimal nanopool after using an emergency DtN program will not be an issue.
    I could agree to that.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    NTs are not exactly meant to be designated tanks, and are, more than any other class in AO, the *Glass Cannons*
    Except Kintaii has said he's trying to make NTs be less glass cannons and let it be possible for them to be designated tanks...

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by LyrLazarus View Post
    Except Kintaii has said he's trying to make NTs be less glass cannons and let it be possible for them to be designated tanks...
    That's not how I remembered it.

    I think he said he wants them to be more glass cannon, and they arent' designated tanks, but he did say he wanted them to tank (this isn't defined so well). I don't think it necessarily means to tank raids or instances. The documents require an emergency reflect buff to run to be able to cast the taunts.

    I guess that means NS1. It doesn't wipe your nanopool. Maybe to take aggro off of a doc or other profession instantly to save them from reclaim. I don't know exactly why the taunt value is so high, but numbers are adjustable. It's an ability you have every 5 minutes anyway. An enfo can manage 60k taunt in 5 minutes.

  4. #244
    "Ranged professions run out of ammo if they are stupid is just as valid as nanotechnicians running out of nano is their own fault. If you feel that you need to stack as much add nanodamage as possible, blame the nanodoc on your nano woes. All you'd like. I'm excited about the prospect of not having infinite nano for everything all the time - it'll add an element to the profession."

    This is not a legitimate comparison. Ranged profs run out of bullets if they are *stupid* or *careless*. With the nanocosts given in the nanodoc, NTs would run out of nano after 30 seconds of sustained nuking...which isn't a matter of stupidity or carelessness, just obscene nanocost.


    "If I wanted to make the same argument for any other profession, nobody that wanted to DD as hard as they could should ever run out of perks to execute and should be able to spam all specials. Think of the nanocosts as a way to keep your DD from being absolutely insane and untouchable by any others. It's the way I'm looking at it. It's a challenge I'm willing to brave "

    The damage-cap on other professions is the recharge on specials and perks. The damage cap for NTs is nuke recharge times. However, I'm willing to accept the idea that NTs would need to do some sort of nanomanagement in order to retain a full pool. Again though, the nanocosts given in the nanodocument are not applicable to a bit of nanomanagement, they are just over-the-top near instantaneous **** of your nanopool (and the nanocosts give in the nanodoc ARE what we are arguing about...)


    "Also tell a shade to activate acrobat or ES while perk chaining something. Their offense can, and does, interrupt their ability to use their defense immediately. An MA that casts their damage buff has a bit of an issue with casting heals. Crats that nuke won't be able to cast fears. Enforcers that rage can't immediately cast their absorbs. You'll have local cooldowns that doesn't do that kind of thing. Think on that a while."

    Top of the line damage buffs for MAs do not interfere with their nanoskills, only the lower level ones do. Having a TL7 shade, I can tell you that in the event I need to toss up DoF during an offensive perkchain, I simply press the button, and it actuates within a few seconds, with minimal disruption of defense by offense or of offense by defense. The recharge on rage of enfos and nukes from crats are very short. This is a disruption of a second or 2 from utilizing a defense. However, the emergency DtN defense of an NT is directly proportional to their nanopool. That means that if using normal nukes over and over drains the nanopool significantly, it LARGELY impacts the effectiveness of that emergency defense, which should not be occuring.


    "Manage your nanopool ;o"

    Yes, I will concede that a completely unlimited nanopool or "nuking with impunity" may be a bit unreasonable, at the most, NTs will simply need to have *some* nanopool management in order to retain a full or nearly full pool. Again, with the nanocosts in the nanodocument, this is not the situation that would be taking place.

    I apologize for the schisty quote method, as I couldn't figure out the multiquote system, and didn't feel like expending time and energy figuring it out.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Waahash View Post
    That's not how I remembered it.

    I think he said he wants them to be more glass cannon, and they arent' designated tanks, but he did say he wanted them to tank (this isn't defined so well). I don't think it necessarily means to tank raids or instances. The documents require an emergency reflect buff to run to be able to cast the taunts.

    I guess that means NS1. It doesn't wipe your nanopool. Maybe to take aggro off of a doc or other profession instantly to save them from reclaim. I don't know exactly why the taunt value is so high, but numbers are adjustable. It's an ability you have every 5 minutes anyway. An enfo can manage 60k taunt in 5 minutes.
    Yeah, I took that to mean NS1 as well. As far as the taunt numbers being over-the-top...well I sure hope enfos can manage that 60k taunt in *15 seconds* not 5 minutes, since 15 seconds is the time period after which poorly managed aggro while make your NT become a bloody splotch on the pande rocks.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by ArienSky View Post
    so no, I think comparing bullets to nano is unreasonable as comparing heat to electricity.
    You can use electricity for A LOT of things, while heat can only be used for warmth.
    They are both measured in watt though, and electricity -can- be used for heating.
    Both are energy and thus one can be converted to another. You should visit coal or nuclear power plant and ask them about how heat is used to produce electricity. So, electricity can be used for heating and heat can be used for creating electricity.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    This is not a legitimate comparison. Ranged profs run out of bullets if they are *stupid* or *careless*. With the nanocosts given in the nanodoc, NTs would run out of nano after 30 seconds of sustained nuking...which isn't a matter of stupidity or carelessness, just obscene nanocost.
    Numbers can be adjusted. I feel that nanocosts shouldn't make nuking infinite. If it drains nanopool too fast, we can hope that certain numbers are adjusted so that we don't nuke for, say, 10 seconds straight then wait a minute while we regain. That would be over the top and hindering - but to constantly nuke hard as you please then having the nanopool available (yes, I realize it is your only offense/defense, manage it as others do theirs) to throw up a very powerful reflect shield (or optionally DtN if you think you'll have the nano to survive an attack) has implications for pvp. Implications alot of professions wouldn't like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    The damage-cap on other professions is the recharge on specials and perks. The damage cap for NTs is nuke recharge times. However, I'm willing to accept the idea that NTs would need to do some sort of nanomanagement in order to retain a full pool. Again though, the nanocosts given in the nanodocument are not applicable to a bit of nanomanagement, they are just over-the-top near instantaneous **** of your nanopool (and the nanocosts give in the nanodoc ARE what we are arguing about...)
    I'm arguing more the concept of running out of nano. Numbers in an excel document are changeable, and irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I'm concerned with challenge present in utilizing a toolset, and as the only toolset available to NTs is nanopool, the challenge would lie in the management of it (to make the argument very basic).


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Top of the line damage buffs for MAs do not interfere with their nanoskills, only the lower level ones do.
    Top of the line ones not being available to lower level characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Having a TL7 shade, I can tell you that in the event I need to toss up DoF during an offensive perkchain, I simply press the button, and it actuates within a few seconds, with minimal disruption of defense by offense or of offense by defense. The recharge on rage of enfos and nukes from crats are very short. This is a disruption of a second or 2 from utilizing a defense. However, the emergency DtN defense of an NT is directly proportional to their nanopool. That means that if using normal nukes over and over drains the nanopool significantly, it LARGELY impacts the effectiveness of that emergency defense, which should not be occuring.
    DtN over Reflects is a choice. Not your only option. Not exactly my point either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Yes, I will concede that a completely unlimited nanopool or "nuking with impunity" may be a bit unreasonable, at the most, NTs will simply need to have *some* nanopool management in order to retain a full or nearly full pool. Again, with the nanocosts in the nanodocument, this is not the situation that would be taking place.
    We get a nano heal for 20k. Useable every 2 minutes. Perks, items, and natural gain, along with more -cost on our buffs. Your management is there, but you'll have to balance -cost with ND, ND with %damage, %damage with def, and def with nano init. Not to say those combinations are mutually exclusive or affect each other, but to say that you'll not get to run around in full defense and nuke hard as piss anymore ;o

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    I apologize for the schisty quote method, as I couldn't figure out the multiquote system, and didn't feel like expending time and energy figuring it out.
    Copy the {Quote=Person;postnumber} and paste it before anything you're quoting, then add your own {/quote} manually

    That's how I do it.
    Last edited by Waahash; Apr 6th, 2011 at 04:25:04.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Yeah, I took that to mean NS1 as well. As far as the taunt numbers being over-the-top...well I sure hope enfos can manage that 60k taunt in *15 seconds* not 5 minutes, since 15 seconds is the time period after which poorly managed aggro while make your NT become a bloody splotch on the pande rocks.
    Of course

    Just saying as an assurance that NTs are not replacing enfos. Just an emergency "here you go, now don't bid on my items" effect.

  9. #249
    To sum my opinions up, here this goes:

    I concede the fact that without nano-management, NTs should be able to run out of nano. However, it should not be particularly difficult to stay at nearly full nano, as the emergency DtN requires a large amount of nano to use. I'm not particularly considering NS1 in these thoughts, due to the fact that it completely eliminates any offense and most debuffing capabilities you have, and so isn't exactly applicable to the other sort of emergency defenses that other professions get.

    At level 220, yes, you get a very large nanoheal of 20k every 2 minutes, along with other perks and nano-regain items, etc. I don't believe, however, that with the current nanocosts in the document, that these will be anywhere close to sufficient.

    Gonna break out the calculator for some rudimentary number-crunching here.

    Base nuke available every 4 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 30 nukes. Each costs 3000 base nano, assuming a 60% reduction of nanocost, thats dropped to 1200 nano each. Therefore, in 2 minutes, of chaincasting youll take up 36k nano. Assuming a rate of cast 75% of that (nano-management) youll take up 27k nano.

    Alpha nuke available every 10 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 12 nukes. Each nuke costs 5000(!) base nano, with 60% reduction, thats 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 24k nano, assuming 75% cast rate, thats 18k total nano.

    Finisher nuke available every 30 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 4 nukes. These also cost 5000 nano per nuke, 60% reduction, 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 8k nano, with 75% cast rate, thats 6k total nano.

    Adding these together, assuming the 60% nanocost reduction, and a rate of nuking that is 75% off of chaincasting, we get a total nano consumption of 51 thousand nano in 2 minutes, and this is assuming no calms, no blinds, and no layers. 51k nano in 2 minutes is a completely obscene nanocost that would totally overwhelm any nanoregain that is available, including the massive 20k regain per 2 minutes. As such, it is fairly obvious that the nanocosts need to be lowered significantly.
    Last edited by Pyroatheist; Apr 6th, 2011 at 04:42:39. Reason: oops, also, roots dont take nano atm...

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    To sum my opinions up, here this goes:

    I concede the fact that without nano-management, NTs should be able to run out of nano. However, it should not be particularly difficult to stay at nearly full nano, as the emergency DtN requires a large amount of nano to use. I'm not particularly considering NS1 in these thoughts, due to the fact that it completely eliminates any offense and most debuffing capabilities you have, and so isn't exactly applicable to the other sort of emergency defenses that other professions get.

    At level 220, yes, you get a very large nanoheal of 20k every 2 minutes, along with other perks and nano-regain items, etc. I don't believe, however, that with the current nanocosts in the document, that these will be anywhere close to sufficient.

    Gonna break out the calculator for some rudimentary number-crunching here.

    Base nuke available every 4 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 30 nukes. Each costs 3000 base nano, assuming a 60% reduction of nanocost, thats dropped to 1200 nano each. Therefore, in 2 minutes, of chaincasting youll take up 36k nano. Assuming a rate of cast 75% of that (nano-management) youll take up 27k nano.

    Alpha nuke available every 10 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 12 nukes. Each nuke costs 5000(!) base nano, with 60% reduction, thats 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 24k nano, assuming 75% cast rate, thats 18k total nano.

    Finisher nuke available every 30 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 4 nukes. These also cost 5000 nano per nuke, 60% reduction, 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 8k nano, with 75% cast rate, thats 6k total nano.

    Adding these together, assuming the 60% nanocost reduction, and a rate of nuking that is 75% off of chaincasting, we get a total nano consumption of 51 thousand nano in 2 minutes, and this is assuming no calms, no blinds, and no layers. 51k nano in 2 minutes is a completely obscene nanocost that would totally overwhelm any nanoregain that is available, including the massive 20k regain per 2 minutes. As such, it is fairly obvious that the nanocosts need to be lowered significantly.


    Glad to see we can see eye to eye on some things. Numbers can be changed still, so don't start fretting over it yet. Maybe FC doesn't want it to happen the way you described, maybe they do. I'm not going to speak for them, but still, the numbers theirselves are irrelevant, it's the concept that matters the most.

    Actually I think Kintaii said that same thing.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Waahash View Post


    Glad to see we can see eye to eye on some things. Numbers can be changed still, so don't start fretting over it yet. Maybe FC doesn't want it to happen the way you described, maybe they do. I'm not going to speak for them, but still, the numbers theirselves are irrelevant, it's the concept that matters the most.

    Actually I think Kintaii said that same thing.
    Good to see some agreement, thats for sure. TBH, the only major concept I think needs to be changed, is that of NS2 being an ultra ultra rare and super expensive nanoprogram, but thats not exactly on-topic atm.

    While its true numbers can be changed, and while its true that Kintaii has said roughly that, numbers are the actual bread and butter of whats going to go on. What worries me is the possibility of numbers not having enough attention paid to them, and then a rather game breaking (for nts) update trotted out without enough testing. For example...with about 5 minutes of free time, a calculator, and a couple rudimentary assumptions, I conclusively showed that the nanocosts in the document are completely obscene and over-the-top. Think about that. 5 minutes and a calculator. The devs spent weeks/months (lots of time) to get this spreadsheet out. They obviously spent some time on the nanocosts as well, getting them to scale correctly with nano qls, setting different nanocost amounts for different nanolines, etc. With all that time and effort spent getting that document out, I find it a large lack of SOMETHING that allowed them to put out this document without noticing that the nanocosts are just completely ridiculous. That sort of thing is what worries me.
    Last edited by Pyroatheist; Apr 6th, 2011 at 05:08:15. Reason: oops

  12. #252
    Dont have the spread sheet in front of me at the moment...but there is a column called "vp". I assume that means that that particular nano can be bought with VP.

    Pretty sure I saw Ns1-2 in the YES category.
    ....................................-Eridonis-
    ................-Sleighbells-................-Northpole-
    ....-Psyche-...............-Decembersky-...........-Karma-
    ...............-Winterbelle-.................-Snowing-
    .....................................-Graffiti-

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by DecemberSky View Post
    Dont have the spread sheet in front of me at the moment...but there is a column called "vp". I assume that means that that particular nano can be bought with VP.

    Pretty sure I saw Ns1-2 in the YES category.
    Good call. I pretty much ignored the VP column after noticing the fact that it existed, since it didnt really have any bearing on the rest of the changes, but you are completely right, both NS1 and NS2, as well as izzies mockery and all of the higher level HEs.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    To sum my opinions up, here this goes:
    51k nano in 2 minutes is a completely obscene nanocost that would totally overwhelm any nanoregain that is available, including the massive 20k regain per 2 minutes. As such, it is fairly obvious that the nanocosts need to be lowered significantly.
    I calculated how much nano you could get at 220 over two minutes. Not including first aid kits it's a little less than you calced you spend on nukes in 2 minutes, so yeah, you couldn't do anything but cast nukes, much less use any DtN nanos. Well, that is to say, your nano pool would be just about full if all you did was cast nukes at 75%. However, if you cast anything else, the total cost of that nano will reduce your nano pool by that much and not be regenerated since all nano regain you have was used to regain your nuke cost, effectively.

    What this means is over 2 minutes you could nuke at 75% max capability, and if you have 20k nano pool and -60 cost reduction, you could also cast the top layer 13 times over 2 minutes (neglecting recharge times etc., just putting this into nanocost terms.) But after that 2 minutes you'd be completely out of nano and would have to sit down and get it back. If you used any DtN however, the results would be very different. Also, this is what it is like at TL7, I imagine it is worse at TL5 for example...

    Yup, for nuking without resting, the best you could do would be to nuke at 75% of your capability and nothing else, no DtN at all. That sounds... Bad. That's just using the nukes, not even the DOTs. Using Kintaii's calculation for DPS using just nukes of 3810.75 and multiplying that by .75 since we're at 75% capability, that's....

    ONLY 2,858 DPS?!?!?!? With no other capabilities or utility, just doing damage, and very mediocre damage at that, and having no defense?!?! Of course you can get some more DPS with +Nanodamage but still!

    +5143 from notum siphon max level
    +1854 from channeling of notum max level
    +4000 nano heal max level
    +3200 from tap notum source (if you're not in SL, a bit more otherwise)
    +1200 from regain nano
    +20000 nano heal
    +4704 from Novictum Reaper
    +9600 from Nano Delta with 2s tick and 160 ND

    =49,701 nano regain in 2 minutes
    Last edited by LyrLazarus; Apr 6th, 2011 at 06:14:10.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by LyrLazarus View Post
    I calculated how much nano you could get at 220 over two minutes. Not including first aid kits it's a little less than you calced you spend on nukes in 2 minutes, so yeah, you couldn't do anything but cast nukes, much less use any DtN nanos.

    +5143 from notum siphon max level
    +1854 from channeling of notum max level
    +4000 nano heal max level
    +3200 from tap notum source (if you're not in SL, a bit more otherwise)
    +1200 from regain nano
    +20000 nano heal
    +4704 from Novictum Reaper
    +9600 from Nano Delta with 2s tick and 160 ND

    =49,701 nano regain in 2 minutes
    Awesome job, I give you a thousand thanks for doing the huge amount of work that I didn't do regarding the rest of the nanoregain info. So yeah, basically with the nanocosts in the document right now, if an NT uses no DtN, uses no crowd control, no layers, uses nukes at a rate 75% of maximum, they will STILL run out of nano...which is rather unacceptable.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Base nuke available every 4 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 30 nukes. Each costs 3000 base nano, assuming a 60% reduction of nanocost, thats dropped to 1200 nano each. Therefore, in 2 minutes, of chaincasting youll take up 36k nano. Assuming a rate of cast 75% of that (nano-management) youll take up 27k nano.

    Alpha nuke available every 10 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 12 nukes. Each nuke costs 5000(!) base nano, with 60% reduction, thats 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 24k nano, assuming 75% cast rate, thats 18k total nano.

    Finisher nuke available every 30 seconds, in 2 minutes thats 4 nukes. These also cost 5000 nano per nuke, 60% reduction, 2000 nano per nuke. In 2 minutes of chaincasting, thats 8k nano, with 75% cast rate, thats 6k total nano.

    Adding these together, assuming the 60% nanocost reduction, and a rate of nuking that is 75% off of chaincasting, we get a total nano consumption of 51 thousand nano in 2 minutes, and this is assuming no calms, no blinds, and no layers. 51k nano in 2 minutes is a completely obscene nanocost that would totally overwhelm any nanoregain that is available, including the massive 20k regain per 2 minutes. As such, it is fairly obvious that the nanocosts need to be lowered significantly.
    I have an uneducated question. In the senario above, did u account for the time to cast each different type of nuke?
    for ex:
    base/base/alpha/base/base/alpha/base/base/alpha/finisher/base/base/alpha...ect

    It seems that fewer nukes (using less nano) would be cast as u would be casting an alpha instead of another base(or two), same with finisher. Or is there a significant difference?
    Above appears a calc using:
    base/base/base/base...ect
    OR
    alpha/alpha/alpha....ect

    Again, this is an honest, uneducated question. I'm learning quite a bit about the "new" Nt in this thread.
    Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Because we said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This nano blocks CH. This is intended.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfytr View Post
    I have an uneducated question. In the senario above, did u account for the time to cast each different type of nuke?
    for ex:
    base/base/alpha/base/base/alpha/base/base/alpha/finisher/base/base/alpha...ect

    It seems that fewer nukes (using less nano) would be cast as u would be casting an alpha instead of another base(or two), same with finisher. Or is there a significant difference?
    Above appears a calc using:
    base/base/base/base...ect
    OR
    alpha/alpha/alpha....ect

    Again, this is an honest, uneducated question. I'm learning quite a bit about the "new" Nt in this thread.
    All the new nukes have a 1 second cast time, which will be instacast, and a 1 second global cooldown, if I understood the nanodoc correctly. If you actually plot out the exact times at which you would cast each nuke according to its cooldowns, then yes, you will have a few conflicts. However, because in the case of a conflict, the nuke you would have cast will simply be cast a second or 2 later. Over the space of 2 minutes, the change in total nuke numbers cast will be small enough to have an imperceptible difference in total nano used.
    Last edited by Pyroatheist; Apr 6th, 2011 at 06:37:55. Reason: Clarification

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by DecemberSky View Post
    Dont have the spread sheet in front of me at the moment...but there is a column called "vp". I assume that means that that particular nano can be bought with VP.

    Pretty sure I saw Ns1-2 in the YES category.
    As far as I know, VP means Visual Profession, but it's just a placeholder value.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    As far as I know, VP means Visual Profession, but it's just a placeholder value.
    Hm, that may very well be, and actually based on current nano information that is available from the database, it is actually much more likely than the ability to buy it with VP. However, a conclusive answer from a dev would be much more satisfying in this regard than player speculation...

  20. #260
    Have I been drinking recently, or aren't the nanocost caps supposed to be 55% for NMs, 50% for soli/opi and 45% for Troxes?

    Whatever the case, I rest to my case :

    1) There is no way we should run out of nano just nuking and debuffing. No way.

    2) Evade nano should be renamed, wtf is Umbral doing in my nano sheet...

    PS : analyzing work still in progress.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

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