Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #241
    SoZ was meant to be a weapon? I thought it was used for the AAD bonus/reflects.

  2. #242
    I don't make assumptions, you only have to ask him, he won't lie.
    No, I won't lie. But I'm afraid, that you've either mis-read or mis-understood my posts in the past if you think that the following is my opinion:

    thats it, we are becoming NTs and that is the playstyle Xtremetech wants, other MPs have different views
    In fact:

    - I have argued for Non-Creation weapons getting a boost

    - I have argued for AR buffs for the MP

    - I have argued for trying to improve weapon diversity for MPs

    - I have argued for weapon damage set-ups as a viable option for the MP

    - I have argued for improved passive defences for the MP

    - I have argued for improved pistol support

    - I have argued for improvements to Debuffs and more emphasis on debuffs

    etc etc etc


    In some of these things, I may have differed with some MPs as to the best way to achieve these things or what level of boost would be appropriate, or we've disagreed on what FC are likely to implement... but this idea that I want MPs to use only 'NT cyberdeck'-like buffing items, that prevent 'real' weapon use and only focus MP offense on nukes, is absolutely wrong.

    Now, let's address the reason why some people perhaps think that my position is different to the above.

    I also think that it's important, that the nuking/debuffing play-style should be supported as a viable option. The MP is at heart a casting profession. This is clearly evidenced by the green/light blue nanoskills, the range of nano-skills buffs, the large range of hostile nanos, the buffs to casting related stats from MP equipment, implants, armours, items etc etc etc.

    It's bad that the effectiveness of nukes, pets and debuffs has slipped further and further behind, when these are in fact the core of the MP design. I have nothing against MPs having weapon-strength as a viable option - but there should also be viable options for the casting focussed MP.

    I also feel that the weapons that the MP creates themselves should be at least the equal of normal weaponry in an MP's hand, overall. That almost the entire line of creations is viewed as useless is not good at all... if anything the unique, signature of the MP, is the ability to create their own weapons. The creations should be a viable and valid option for the MP - not the only ones, but they should be viable. Those weapons can be high damage with no buffs for weapon users... and low damage with heavy buffs for nukers.

    Normal weapons should also be viable options for the MP and offer diversity of options and builds... I don't believe that creations should be the be all and end all of MP weaponry... but the creations should be at the very least as viable for both weapon focussed and nuke focussed MPs.

    And from a pragmatic point of view, it's easier for FC to control the balance of creation weapons, it's potentially easier for MPs to get higher attack ratings with creations, it's easier for MPs to get future boosts to nanoskills than weapon skills etc... so there are potential pragmatic benefits to improving creations for both damage and buffing use. The normal weapon option should be maintained... but ignoring the potential in creations would also be foolish.


    Sooo... I'd like to think that this post might finally stop people from posting these nonsense posts that stuff unwanted words in my mouth and I'd hope that it might stop people from constantly mis-reading and mis-understanding my posts, because of false preconceptions. But I'm pretty certain, that this won't happen, unfortunately. But I suppose I've lived with this for a good few years now - I'm sure I'll manage to get by for a few more.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  3. #243
    Is SoZ still going to be 2hb with the same speed and 1-1 dmg ?
    As I read the document, the new SoZ is 1HB and can be wielded alongside a creation weapon.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    Partly right, im trying to make creation weapons comparable with normal weaponry, i dont see why one wants to stick to normal weapons so badly tho?

    If creation weapons were exactly as strong as normal weapons and it also has a benefit for pets, ud still not use them?

    I rather have an aspect that is already there become as usable as normal weapons because they will always excist and be there to fall back upon. We wont loose the ability to equip the old weapons and as long as AR, 2he, 2hb etc etc improves for other professions they will need to make new Bows and Pistols aswell
    Apart from a 25%-100% nanoskill AR what do you think is the difference between a normal weapon and a creation weapon?

    If you don't find any, don't you think it is better to give normal weapons the possibility to be creations?

    Quote Originally Posted by AhndraCorvid View Post
    Actually you bring up a good point. Keeping most of the talk about TL7 is a mistake. Yes, most of the people here seem to have already leveled to or near to the endgame, so naturally they are going to be most familiar with this area since its the most recent in their memory. That's fine. But since we're always so preoccupied with the endgame (and that's not a problem unique to the MP forum) we're in danger of overlooking a viewpoint from one of the most important groups within the MP population.

    Namely, the viewpoint of the leveling MP trying the profession out for the first time.

    If the post-rebalance MP does not work for those new, leveling, and lower level (twinked or not) players, we are not going to get any more people playing MPs nomatter how balanced TL7 is. Because people are just not going to enjoy the experience enough to stick it out.

    Ideally, we'd hope for new people trying out the changes post-rebalance with no prior knowledge of the MP profession to give feedback to FC about what works and what doesn't. I'm considering rolling a second MP after the rebalance just to see for myself what difference the changes make to the way that players are introduced to the profession, and what kind of experience they might get while leveling through it.
    There is not enough nano, I got lvl 2, lvl 25, lvl 60, lvl 90 and lvl 165 MP twinks, there is not enough nano now to make constant damage in teams using nukes.

    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    ^^ I gonna do both roll a new mp and transfer my ubah ones to test server to feel the changes.

    And I dunno about the others, but I'm trying to think on lowbies as well. As you said its hard cause I played there as a sloob MP loooooong time ago. What just make me think: There are a way to few MQ nukes on low level. And all of those dont have Unmake/Dominates debuffs attached, diferent of higher MQs.
    Boa Viagen, lembra-te de usar um froob sem créditos nem ajuda.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Boa Viagen, lembra-te de usar um froob sem créditos nem ajuda.
    ^^ Por que não? Era o que eu estava pensando.

    P.s.: I thought the forum here was english only. /shrug
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  6. #246
    Saying bom voyage is not against the rules

  7. #247
    Well, anyway :P

    Gonna wait next NanoDoc and random post here when I found something else wrong ^^
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  8. #248
    Another question, those of you who are ranged, and probably have CS equipped, how much MC and TS do you have now and what endgame nanoskill equipment do you have?

  9. #249
    There is alot of differences, currently and what im arguing a bit for is the attack/recharge on them. Other things thats different is the way in which they can dissapear after 8 hours. There is alot of differences and there have to be. Thing is that both strategies like X actually said above, deserve a possibility. What u seem to want is for creation weapons to not excist at all.

    To ur question, no i dont wear Scouts, but i do get in the 2.35k MC/TS region if i recall it correctly, dont really know tho, havent been looking at my nanoskills for a while now. Have all the oppurtunity to get to 2.5k Nanoskills tho, even 2.7k would be possible i recon
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by AhndraCorvid View Post
    Actually you bring up a good point. Keeping most of the talk about TL7 is a mistake. Yes, most of the people here seem to have already leveled to or near to the endgame, so naturally they are going to be most familiar with this area since its the most recent in their memory. That's fine. But since we're always so preoccupied with the endgame (and that's not a problem unique to the MP forum) we're in danger of overlooking a viewpoint from one of the most important groups within the MP population.

    Namely, the viewpoint of the leveling MP trying the profession out for the first time.

    If the post-rebalance MP does not work for those new, leveling, and lower level (twinked or not) players, we are not going to get any more people playing MPs nomatter how balanced TL7 is. Because people are just not going to enjoy the experience enough to stick it out...
    Personally the reason I've not spent much time discussing TL1-6 is that we look to be fine there. Already we do just fine up to lvl 150, some of the more significant nerfs we've been hit with only apply at higher levels (SoZ, Sacrificial Shielding), and most of the love we're getting helps just as much or more TL2-6. The SL pets being extended down (all the way to lvl 145 lock in the attack pets) should help at late TL5/TL6, where our power presently fades.

  11. #251
    Thing is that both strategies like X actually said above, deserve a possibility.
    I believe that madmax has me on his ignore list (at least he says this is the case). I've never had anyone on an ignore list, so I don't really know what happens... but I'm guessing he won't see my posts.

    My post above was more meant to ensure that there were no misunderstanding's of my position by those who read his posts, but on the off-chance that he does still read my posts, that wouldn't hurt either.

    I'm personally sorry that he has me on ignore. He has at times had some good and creative ideas, and I personally find that discussion and sometimes argument about the issues on these forums, has helped to inform my understanding of the issues of others - and has also changed my approach to many issues.

    That said, hiding from the argument and being unwilling to listen in that way, is a sign of a closed mind.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 26th, 2011 at 21:55:59.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  12. #252
    Actually, the creation bow is a really good creation weapon, apart from the known creation weapon benefits it is a DD weapon targeted to improve nuking damage and range with the added benefit of weapon perks and hits. It is a very good weapon for DD nuker MPs, but it is worthless for weapon MPs. Saying that it does not exist is not true since that weapon will be used by nukers.

    You probably want the same thing I do, more AR with normal weapons or calling normal weapon creations by giving some of them +25%? TS-MC attack skill. The creation weapons will exist for tanking and DD nuking. The melee normal weapons for your description of warmage MPs and the ranged normal weapons for debuffers

    Of course anyone can get 2500 nanoskills, but what will you sacrifice to get it as a weapon wielding MP?

  13. #253
    Quick note on creation weapon/non creation weapon balance:

    So far as I can tell, and this is not official from FC but more the vibe I've gotten, is that the design goal is for either traditional or creation weapons to be viable choices with the very best non-creation weapons offering a bit more total damage and less defense (including healing) while the creation weapons offer better defense and close to the same damage once the improved nuke access and attack pet damage buff are counted in.

    So I don't think there is much chance of getting our creation weapons boosted to where their DD rivals Xan weapons - the Xan weapons are supposed to slightly out-damage the creation weapons + creation pet damage buff + base nukes instead of special effect nukes.

    On there other hand, non-creation AR is really really low for anything but bow, and that is a problem, but at present the prospect of getting a scaling AAO or weapon bonus off from nanoskills or something similar does not look too promising. Any additional explanation the pistol MPs out there could post of what support you all need and why it's necessary would help that cause IMHO.

  14. #254
    Adding pistol to research.
    Adding pistol to ofab armor.
    Anything that can give us 10-30% AR scaled by level.

    Necessary to be able to have regular hits since weapon MPs do not have worthy specials now. It is even hard to hit now in PvM and imposible in PvP.

    Your picture of the situation is more or less the same picture I had.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Of course anyone can get 2500 nanoskills, but what will you sacrifice to get it as a weapon wielding MP?
    You will sacrifice some brain cells to make a ql 300 Nanocontroller Unit. + Nano hud to swap. MAGIC and you cast a shinning Notum Scourge.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    So I don't think there is much chance of getting our creation weapons boosted to where their DD rivals Xan weapons
    The Min-Max(Crit) on Creation weaps are good itself. But attached with 3/3 speed... make then do half of Beast Weapons.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    You will sacrifice some brain cells to make a ql 300 Nanocontroller Unit. + Nano hud to swap. MAGIC and you cast a shinning Notum Scourge.
    2500 is still too much. If it stays like this, I expect it to tear things apart just by looking at them.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    On there other hand, non-creation AR is really really low for anything but bow,
    Bow did not needed AR because it was based on AS. If AS is nerfed them bow MPs will need a boost in AR too.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    2500 is still too much. If it stays like this, I expect it to tear things apart just by looking at them.
    Agree, it is too high, if MPs (the nanoskilled profession by default for some...) need to start swapping equipment when they have endgame equipment on, them we are not so much nanoskilled as some people cry out loud here.

    I got 2350 with nanodoctorate, org benefits, champion of nano combat fully perked and four CS pieces in the armor. Pretty expensive for us the masters of nanocasting huh?

  18. #258
    Yeap, 2.5k is a way to much for current AS MPs. I agree with it. But its possible to ever then swap stuff to get it.

    Its possible to cast new end pet on AS MPs. But... Meh.... :x
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  19. #259
    good post but that NSD is gunna suck for us froob toons who like to raid HI, its hard enough as it is without a 7 sec duration, thanks fc for only thinking of the paid people (lots of paid have froob toons who are frequently played also!)

    pretty stupid if you ask me, should still last 1 min imo, just have the resist check lowered, since endgame NR is pretty much higher than needed anyway, as i see it, thats what this balance is aimed at, only endgame people.
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    There is not enough nano, I got lvl 2, lvl 25, lvl 60, lvl 90 and lvl 165 MP twinks, there is not enough nano now to make constant damage in teams using nukes.
    That was one of the largest jumps in capability I noticed from a 74 MP and a 75 MP. The 130ish CO I use allows me to spam nukes about twice as long as I do now, I think its about 40 seconds of spamming, which is quite a bit at full out casting. Lesser geared MP's or even 74 and lower MPs already run out of nano quickly.

    Based on the document I think I could cast the basic nuke, the other three nukes, then the basic nuke one last time and run out of nano lol. The damage, however, would be around 5875 nuke damage without %nano damage, all 5 hits would generally be 1k+ damage. Without even including the pets my 75 MP would be able to guarantee an alpha against all but keepers, soldiers, and enforcers (I believe non-atrox doctors are below 6k max health in that range). Even then those keepers, soldiers, and enforcers would take a critical amount of damage.


    Perhaps this is balance, in that my MP should not be able to cast all those nukes so freely? Literally sacrificing for max nano in my setup just barely allows me to maximize the nuking efficiency and not utilize any other nanos at my level. All professions are facing similar situations, casting is becoming more difficult all around. If everyone is allowed to easily cast their nanos as they are now, then we only continue the problem we have been facing where nanos are too easily spammable in this game and literally make casting the most important balancing issue.

    Casting is necessary in pvp to be successful, but not in pvm at lower levels and leveling. It would certainly help, but the pets do the majority of the MP's work, so I do not see as many issues with it as others may have. Basic leveling will remain simple at low levels, a pvp MP will have to make choices, and a pvm twink will still be able to sit back while a high level set of pets does the majority of the work.



    I will make one point though, FC adding these Nano Damage per Second calculations are highly misleading. A true DPS does not include something unrealistic, such as MP's chain casting those nanos for more than a minute at 220 and a decked out setup. It would be similar to proposing a weapon that does 700-1000 (600) damage, has 10 attack and 10 recharge, and then FC posting the weapons DPS based on someone with 7000 initiative points.
    Last edited by Gatester; Mar 27th, 2011 at 00:20:51.

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