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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #161
    My calcs were using Ejathos chest, SE Helmet, and the rest CSS. I usually have around 16-17k HP in my setup, but even with 100% bow 25% TS I still won't have the AR to hit anything in pvp, just like I can't now. The only reason that setup works is a reliable 11 sec AS. Granted I don't have Ranger perked, but honestly, I won't hit anything more with it perked than I do without.

  2. #162
    Ran some easy weapon calculations with the Auno calculator with some fictional numbers but all same for each weapon

    The numbers that were constant:
    2700 AR (Based on Lainbr's setup calculations)
    Target AC of 10k
    Initiatives of 700
    Crit chance of 10
    Agg/Def bar at 0

    Numbers for 1 Asp:
    Your critical hit will be 5689 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 2333 and 2333 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 6672 points of damage.
    You would score 2.25 normal, and 0.25 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 6672 points and 0 points would be special attacks.

    Numbers for Esa:
    Your critical hit will be 7316 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 2999 and 2999 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 5718 points of damage.
    You would score 1.5 normal, and 0.17 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 5718 points and 0 points would be special attacks.

    Numbers for Accuracy with flingshot (Skill = 1000):
    Your critical hit will be 8688 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 2581 and 2875 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 6490 points of damage.
    You would score 1.5 normal, and 0.17 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 5540 points and 950 points would be special attacks.

    So in those calcs one Asp would already do way better than 2hb and a bit better than Bow and for Bow thats due to its special attack. NOTE: I didnt count the extra poison proc on the Asp and Esa, if i do that by adding the damage in the add damage bar, i put in 25% of 301 for the Asp (75) and 50% of 387 for the Esa (190) and the damage in 10 seconds goes up to 6859 for Asp and 6035 for Esa.

    As i understand it from 1 weapon to two weapons is from 30 hits per minute to 40 hits per minute or something along that region, so MIGHT it become possible to use two Asp's then damage aughta go up by a factor 1.333. Add that to the 6859 from Asp with the added Proc, then u get 9145.

    Sure theres things wrong in the calculations but this at its least is an indication of what could be things to factor in.

    If u do go 1hb i guess u should get a mean avarage damage boost of a little bit but with double Asp thats a bit much.

    Just to compare ill add in a single pistol crat damage calc with Lust with the same AR, Agg/Def, inits and crit (1000 Fling and Burst):
    Lust of the Xan
    Your critical hit will be 3488 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 1744 and 1744 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 10932 points of damage.
    You would score 3.21 normal, and 0.36 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 6834 points and 4098 points would be special attacks.

    Edit: to add in the dual wield calculation ill multiply 10932 by 1.333 and u get 14572 as an end result, so end conclusion would be that creation weapons are about 50ish percent of normal weapons, do we find that back in pets with 300 damage per hit?

    Did not factored in... Bow Clip size, dont know what that is, couldnt find in document.

    @Lainbr: Btw just checked the document and noticed that Creation bow goes in LEFT hand, Tigress goes in Right hand, so ud actually need 10 seconds to swap from Creation Bow to Tigress for ur AS, im sorry mate.
    Last edited by Metafly7; Mar 24th, 2011 at 03:11:44.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  3. #163
    @Metafly Nice calc work. And again, I wasnt think on "hotswap" :P So I still dont know if I'll focus on Creation Bow/Nanos or on AS/AR.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

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    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwop View Post
    A few surprises, but overall I think it looks pretty good. I'm just glad my brother is a Nanomage, as I worry about our Atrox MP friends here.

    Also: Good thing no one does Mordeth raids anymore.

    Also also: Since they've let Advents fly in SL with Parrot, I was kinda wondering if they'd let MP do it with Quantum Wings.
    Since when are they letting Advys fly in SL?

    I looked over their nanodocument to see if I missed something, but both their self and targeted versions of the parrot buff still have the "Not in SL" requirement.

    Also, <3 this bit about QW remaining running while we're indoors. Didn't even catch that as it was hidden off to the side. Pure win!

  5. #165
    Cool snare proc. It's a shame no one suggested something like that years ago!
    Now, one of the reasons we’ve spent the last month arguing about the debt ceiling is that half of the "teabag" Congress signed a vow to never raise taxes. Someone just handed them something and it wasn’t a gun, a crucifix or a fetus — so they signed it. Why? "Because we’re rugged individuals who love freedom. Now excuse us while we sign this document swearing to do as we’re told." --Bill Maher

  6. #166
    Lol @ quieter.

    On the damage calcs - I do think you need to take into account the environments a bit:

    In PvP, most MPs whose builds rely on weapon damage will want to go with Ranged. There are many issues with going melee in PvP.

    In PvP, MPs who want to focus more on nuke damage and casting, will tend to go with 1HB for the mods and defence more than for the damage (though if they're forced into melee, that will still be an good option).

    In team PvM, I could see the 2HB coming into its own more - because of pushing the agg-def bar up. No need for being full-def in team PvM and in your calcs, being full def on the slow weapon is always going to be a killer.

    In solo PvM, you can see 1HB coming into its own more as a damage dealer. Many 1HB solo MPs engage much more in melee alongside their pets - going full-def and with the shields offering them the defences to do so.... and who knows? Maybe the parry shield will be the shield of choice?

    These also happen to be pretty much how the various weapon types are mostly used at the moment. PvP MPs want range and use ranged weapons of buffing shield set-ups, 2HB tends to get used for team PvM, hard solo specialists tend to go 1HB/Shields - maybe switching to dual wield when teaming.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  7. #167
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Those attack / recharge values on weapons are just killers. It cant work. There is an interesting thing with martial arts weapon, it gets slower with higher ql. Maybe creation weapons could work same way if they insist on it so much? Having 3/3 speed on ql 30 weapon and 3/3 on ql 300 isnt fair as people using ql 30 will have way less inits than people using ql 300. Maybe it could be 1/1 for qls less than 100, 1,5/1,5 on qls between 100 and 200 and 2/2 on ql 200+ or something like that?

    Or... maybe they could just use nano init instead of weapon init?
    Last edited by Ciekafsky; Mar 24th, 2011 at 09:39:41.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    Lol @ quieter.

    On the damage calcs - I do think you need to take into account the environments a bit:

    In PvP, most MPs whose builds rely on weapon damage will want to go with Ranged. There are many issues with going melee in PvP.

    In PvP, MPs who want to focus more on nuke damage and casting, will tend to go with 1HB for the mods and defence more than for the damage (though if they're forced into melee, that will still be an good option).

    In team PvM, I could see the 2HB coming into its own more - because of pushing the agg-def bar up. No need for being full-def in team PvM and in your calcs, being full def on the slow weapon is always going to be a killer.

    In solo PvM, you can see 1HB coming into its own more as a damage dealer. Many 1HB solo MPs engage much more in melee alongside their pets - going full-def and with the shields offering them the defences to do so.... and who knows? Maybe the parry shield will be the shield of choice?

    These also happen to be pretty much how the various weapon types are mostly used at the moment. PvP MPs want range and use ranged weapons of buffing shield set-ups, 2HB tends to get used for team PvM, hard solo specialists tend to go 1HB/Shields - maybe switching to dual wield when teaming.

    X
    When i put them all on 100 agg/def then they do indeed do aproximately the same damage:

    1hb:
    1hb
    Your critical hit will be 5764 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 2408 and 2408 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 13718 points of damage.
    You would score 4.5 normal, and 0.5 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 13718 points and 0 points would be special attacks.

    Bow:
    Bow
    Your critical hit will be 8688 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 2581 and 2875 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 13817 points of damage.
    You would score 3.48 normal, and 0.39 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 12867 points and 950 points would be special attacks.

    2hb:
    2hb
    Your critical hit will be 7506 points.
    Your normal hits will vary between 3189 and 3189 points.
    Over 10 seconds you would do about 14016 points of damage.
    You would score 3.48 normal, and 0.39 critical hits.
    The damage done by normal attacks would be 14016 points and 0 points would be special attacks.

    But thats the thing, u dont want to switch that agg/def bar to much while u play, and u really need to put it on a 100 with the inits that i calculated in. But in the end it does add up to be decent
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  9. #169
    Or... maybe they could just use nano init instead of weapon init?
    Now there's an idea....

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    Well, I think there are solutions that work much better. 2 examples:

    - Bosses that have some procs AND some nano's (nano's are stopped by NSD, procs are not) --> NSD has a controllable effect, but doesn't completely shut down the boss. I don't consider the current solution very controllable.

    - Boss still has enough nanoskills to cast (some) nano's when NSD'ed but with NSD you get a decent chance to counter it. --> makes nanoresist matter more. (I believe this is the case with some of Hezak's nano's).

    Best would be a combination of both.
    Which could lead into a situation where the boss was only doable with a shutdown person on the team to keep it challenging for when such a person is present. The total-shutdown is bad, and it's one of the reasons why things are either way too easy or completely immune to the debuffs.
    So, would you rather have a scenario where your debuff has an impact on the fight, or one where you have no impact at all because the debuff is too powerful and the mob is either immune or only uses procs to deal special attacks?
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
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    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    Now there's an idea....

    X
    lol how do we have to interpret that? :P
    As in this has already been mentioned more than once or?
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    EJathos Chest, SE Helm and Ofab pants? - 30 noskills/evades and -150 bow and here you 17k HP on a nanogimp. **squeezes**
    Well, that's not 2.6k AR anymore.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Which could lead into a situation where the boss was only doable with a shutdown person on the team to keep it challenging for when such a person is present. The total-shutdown is bad, and it's one of the reasons why things are either way too easy or completely immune to the debuffs.
    So, would you rather have a scenario where your debuff has an impact on the fight, or one where you have no impact at all because the debuff is too powerful and the mob is either immune or only uses procs to deal special attacks?
    Did you read my post? What I say is that it doesn't have to be only procs or only nano's, but a mix between them. That would mean there is no total shutdown and it still is challenging with an MP in team. Yet the debuff would have an impact on the fight. This has a few advantages:

    - It is controllable. The effect is certain, you feel like you are in control of the fight.

    - You depend less on luck. With the current mechanism, one time you'll get stunned all the time during NSD immunity and the other time you'll prevent all stuns with NSD. I think this leads to very frustrating scenario's.

    - I'm not sure the MP will bother casting a nano, considering the relative small chance the boss will cast a nano during the next 7 sec.

    (The 3 above advantages are related)

    - The devs can put in a little variation on how useful NSD is in different raids.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  14. #174
    I see my 150 MP becoming more OP then it already is!

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Still, it's merely a nerfed version of what engie pets got (20m AoE unbreakable snare).
    I have an extreme hatred of the engineer snare aura. MP's are not crowd control and neither are engineers, the toolsets being handed out to everyone like candy just demeans the professions that rely upon it as a core aspect of their toolset. If I wanted to get into a real debate about it I would argue the point that only melee reliant professions themselves should have CC tools while the ranged have removers.

    I know it is rough on pet users, but CC tools need to start being limited and we should simply make it more difficult to actually run away or kite. With very strong pets, it starts to take away the justification to also force people into combat with them. Against an engineer now when my MP gets snared I do not last very long, and the same will apply to MP's if we are not careful. The more professions with effective CC tools available means more professions that make pet profession life more difficult and less enjoyable.

    Now this is of course entirely my opinion, but I feel at the most that engineers and MP's should not have extensive CC toolsets that are also low risk to use, but perhaps minor snares or stuns to periodically allow our pets to catch up to targets rather than force targets to be pummeled by pets until the target dies. CoC would have been a perfect nano if it merely had a cooldown attached.

    PVP CC-esque utility pets I would even argue for a blind effect over an actual CC tool, to disorient opponents rather than control them directly.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Well, that's not 2.6k AR anymore.
    Pff.. Then go 3.1k AR, 14k HP and double AS

    Quote Originally Posted by Coookiez View Post
    I see my 150 MP becoming more OP then it already is!
    Your nano will witstand you new OPness? Also dont forget you will have no Parry stick.

    EDIT:

    @Gatester MPs have only one CC tool, which is mezz pet. The AoE improvement will not make us zerg boss with all adds around (well, shades fixers and crats already do it) but will make us survive if two adds repop or a shade train us.

    Seems like you dont know the current MP OP solo paradig: Zero add - We rock; One add - We rock; Two adds - We cry/die; Three adds - Instasplash PWND. While everybody else who cqn solo what we solo can witstand/ignore adds.
    Last edited by lainbr; Mar 24th, 2011 at 16:58:31.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  17. #177
    ...know the current MP OP solo paradig: Zero add - We rock; One add - We rock; Two adds - We cry/die; Three adds - Instasplash PWND. While everybody else who cqn solo what we solo can witstand/ignore adds.
    QFT. MPs will not be replacing Crats, Traders, Advs or NTs (presumably) as preferred calmers for team or raid PvM. The AOE mezz is however a desperately needed solo PvM tool, particularly with the effective removal of SoZ sending our damage mitigation off a cliff. Without SoZ on an MP tends to just die if adds happen.

    I'm not sure how damaging a root that breaks on a soft breeze (100% break chance on attack/nano attack/debuff) would be in PvP either, even if cast rather frequently. Pet professions truly need some way for their pets to hit their targets at least occasionally, and absent a minimal level of CC I'm not aware of any effective anti-kiting mechanics (pet pathing just isn't that good).

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    QFT. MPs will not be replacing Crats, Traders, Advs or NTs (presumably) as preferred calmers for team or raid PvM. The AOE mezz is however a desperately needed solo PvM tool, particularly with the effective removal of SoZ sending our damage mitigation off a cliff. Without SoZ on an MP tends to just die if adds happen.
    What level or location of adds is everyone referring to and I am assuming only tl7 since SoZ is mentioned?

  19. #179
    and absent a minimal level of CC I'm not aware of any effective anti-kiting mechanics (pet pathing just isn't that good).
    Aye... the snare proc for the pet holds some promise... but needs to be a higher proc chance I think.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    MP's are not crowd control and neither are engineers, the toolsets being handed out to everyone like candy just demeans the professions that rely upon it as a core aspect of their toolset.
    But advs are? This is exactly what I was arguing against with the new adv stuff. You thought it was fine then. What changed?

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