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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    I see it now, not sure how I missed it but it happens. That makes it not as bad for pets but kind of annoying for pvp then. That is quite fast on a recharge for a CC tool, and that is not including the mezz pet possibly having nano init and making the cast even faster.

    I would rather improve the mez pet, giving it the additional functions all of the MP's have been pushing for, and an AOE CC tool that a pet spams just feels wrong.
    Still, it's merely a nerfed version of what engie pets got (20m AoE unbreakable snare).
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    Well, froobs are part of the game, whether you like it or not. You can't just ignore part of the game because that's an easy solution.
    Besides froobs actually have big scale challenging raids. Also froobs are quite balanced. FC could learn from that and make the game fun for paybies as well.

    I don't see why NSD needs such a nerf in pvm. As I understand in the paid pvm world NSD is barely used at all because it's not needed. So then there is 2 places where NSD is used currently: pvp and froob pvm. For pvp I can understand a short duration and an immunity. For pvm it just becomes even more useless. 7 seconds is nothing in pvm unless you can predict when a boss is going to nuke or cast harmful effects. What happened to the different effect in pvp vs pvm idea some dev mentioned once?

    Sorry for the ranting, but I'm seriously hurt by this. I hope I sound a bit more constructive this time.
    Because the way NSD works now is overpowered and silly. It's an on/off switch for bosses and monsters, and it ruins the way things work, by forcing devs to make encounters either completely immune or use special attacks that go around it. Look at NSD as a mitigator instead of an I-Win button.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  3. #123
    On the question of the AoE Mez pet, I think there's a really important thing about the MP, that people tend to forget: we have little or no defence against multiple attackers.

    Other professions may have defence buffs like Reflects, Absorbs, AC, NR, blockers, big short-term Evade buffs etc etc... which defend you passively, against all attackers.

    Or other professions may have defence attacks such as AoE blinds, calms, roots, snares etc which can affect a large number of attackers.

    Or other professions have single target debuffs that can be cast and maintained on several attackers at once.


    But MPs have single target debuffs, which now cannot be maintained on more than one attacker at a time, due to cool-downs and immunities. Even before these changes, it was difficult to maintain any level of debuff on more than 2 players.... but now it's impossible.

    There is no effective defence against multiple attackers.

    This is a real issue and always has been a real issue for MPs - except for SS... and that was so ubiquitous, despite its drawbacks, at least in part due to it being the only passive defence that MPs had which defended against multiple attackers.

    At least having some ability to hold off multiple attackers with the AoE mez pet gives us something. FC have over the years been very resistant to giving MPs proper passive buffs - presumably because we're supposed to be a debuffing profession (though after this document you might argue this). So there has to be at least some form of AoE defence for the MP - and the mez pet is where it's going to be.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 23rd, 2011 at 17:22:44.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  4. #124
    Still, it's merely a nerfed version of what engie pets got (20m AoE unbreakable snare).
    If it's the line I'm thinking of... that only affects other pets and mobs, doesn't it? There's an NPC Family > 0 on it... I'm honestly not sure of the effect there... but looking at the nanos that affect players and their pets (like the mez nano) it's 0 and 95-98 (with the pets being 95-98)... and mobs are target > 0.

    In PvM, the AoE Mez is more effective.

    in PvP, the pet snare would stop pets better... but the AoE Root on the mez pet would be more useful overall surely? Not sure there, I guess...

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 23rd, 2011 at 17:20:05.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  5. #125
    With AoE mezz I'll not instasplash when a Shade train me 3 spiders while I'm killing Creepy Spider in Inf. (Yes, all shades I met in inf trainned me...)
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Because the way NSD works now is overpowered and silly. It's an on/off switch for bosses and monsters, and it ruins the way things work, by forcing devs to make encounters either completely immune or use special attacks that go around it. Look at NSD as a mitigator instead of an I-Win button.
    Well, I think there are solutions that work much better. 2 examples:

    - Bosses that have some procs AND some nano's (nano's are stopped by NSD, procs are not) --> NSD has a controllable effect, but doesn't completely shut down the boss. I don't consider the current solution very controllable.

    - Boss still has enough nanoskills to cast (some) nano's when NSD'ed but with NSD you get a decent chance to counter it. --> makes nanoresist matter more. (I believe this is the case with some of Hezak's nano's).

    Best would be a combination of both.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  7. #127
    Can't be too serious but I've taken a look at the numbers and can't seem to conclude but..

    Are we top of the food chain?!

    You're first impression will be nah that can't be we're bloody MP's we suck bigtime fact fact!!1 but I've tried to simulate some fights and they all end up with me winning the fight..Or am I seriously mistaken here?

    Depends a bit on how easily I run out of nano though :P

  8. #128
    Please add all tradeskills to the Special Effect Nuke and Nano Shutdown debuffs.

    No reason why Engineers should get away with it now that they've changed their nanoskills to tradeskills.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #129
    Nano-cost will be a big issue, for sure. Casting everything a nano-cost capped nano-mage MP will spend 1,103 nano/second. Our nano-regain second (with Soothing Spirits 10 and Ancient Knowledge 10 perked, from the last publicly released perk documents) is a bit under 300, assuming we've put some efffort into nano-delta. I'm guessing we'll run out of nano at right about the 25 second mark in a fight with heavy casting, so long as we don't get with any nano drains (and faster for non-NM MPs).

  10. #130
    I think we may see some very different builds going on. More emphasis on lots of Nanopool to try to deliver more within a given space of time, for example. Much more emphasis on Nano-Delta is likely too etc.

    But also, I wonder whether people might opt more for perklines like Notum Source: Extra Max Nano and Nano Delta plus Nano Heal, Nano Damage increasing debuff, NR debuff, and Nano Hit to go alongside the Nanocost debuff perhaps?

    The question is which of the others do you lose to train it of course... but maybe if you're going for an all-out casting build and play-style, there could be advantages to going for the slightly different builds?

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  11. #131
    Will there be a perkline for 2hb users other than CohI? If not, I would not mind seeing the Attack Rating of those weapons changed to 100% TS & 25% 2HB. It would make them more interesting compared to a dual-1hb weap setup and allow for dmg setups based around weapons and nukes.

    Also: Nano dmg debuffs are spammable? Don't like that from my NTs pov. Spammability makes it overpowered.
    Rather have a smallish cool down added. 5s for instance. As it stands, with them being insta-castable with no cap, 1s recharge and MPs nanoskills guarantees a success within less than 5s. The way I figured, FC wanted NR to matter again.

    Really like the DtP addition. Although I am not so sure about the combination of regular reflects (e.g. rrfe, 30% pre-pvp-dmg-reduction), DtP (20% ?-pvp-dmg-reduction) and DtN (e.g. NMsecondary, 10static or 25%shorttime, post-pvp-dmg-reduction).
    The big question on this is, where in the stacking order will DtP and DtN be post re-balance?
    Somewhere along this? Reflect->absorbs->pvp-caps->DtP->DtN?
    If this is the case then let's look at a 13k AS hit a 15k HP MP in pvp:
    absorbs? naaaah
    rrfe:13.000*0,7=9.100
    pvp reduction: 9.100*0,5=4.550
    pvp cap: 15.000/100*30=4.500
    DtP: 4.500*0,8=3.600
    DtN: 3.600*0,9=3.240
    3.240/4.500=0,72
    That's an effective dmg reduction of 28% post pvp cap.

    Or a regular hit for for 3k dmg on said MP.
    absorbs? again, none.
    rrfe: 3.000*0,7=2100
    pvp reduction: 2100*0,5=1.050
    pvp cap: unaffected
    DtP: 1.050*0,8=840
    DtN: 840*0,9=756
    756/3.000=~0,25
    An effective dmg reduction of ~75%.

    And if I look at that, its a good thing they took blockers away, else MPs would be completely OP vs sols and Agents.

    @ Kintaai: Could you please tell us how the future dmg reduction will work? At which points will AC, Absorbs, Reflects, PVP Caps, DtN and DtP kick in?


    On a side note: NM is looking extremely interesting for MPs atm. Coon, DtN on top of DtP, ..... Speaking of those breed perks... Will the +heal effi buff from NMprimary10 affect the heal pet?
    Last edited by sannz; Mar 23rd, 2011 at 18:37:18.
    keep smiling
    Najade s, Najengi s, Najngi s, Najmp s, Shadysannz, Toccata, Frobos, Chaodoc, Najcrat, Najtank
    sannz - ENL - NR01-GOLF-11
    a time of changing has begun; the leaves are fallen and undone; inside my spirit starts to run; and all my fears are overcome. - Chiasm, Rewind, 2005

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by SeeminglyMostUninformedPersonInAO
    Tell it to NTs and Advs who runs around with 3k and those enfs with almost 4k.
    Those NTs are nr1 and those Advys are nr2 then. It's called a sacrifice. Enfos well... we know how rage is being changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leduc69
    i already have to put some effort to not be alphaed by any 3K+ ar prof, i can't do both.
    What does that have to do with your custom implant that doesn't add NR. Can't have your cake and eat it too (as a MP).

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Corily View Post
    Can't be too serious but I've taken a look at the numbers and can't seem to conclude but..

    Are we top of the food chain?!

    You're first impression will be nah that can't be we're bloody MP's we suck bigtime fact fact!!1 but I've tried to simulate some fights and they all end up with me winning the fight..Or am I seriously mistaken here?

    Depends a bit on how easily I run out of nano though :P
    Are you simmulating with all perks landing? Cause only Docs, Def Agents and other MPs cant land then on us.

    Well you not all wrong. Now I can see myself winning a duel against MAs But we cant do proper simulation w/o revamped perk docs.

    I did some calcs with a "new allrounder bow setup" and I got 2.7kish AR w/o AAD loss (only the 70 from SS nerf) but 20s AS on tigress. I'm still trying to figure out things, but seems both AS focused setup and Creation Bow focused setup will work well (at least a bit better than today.)
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  14. #134
    I've looked at Notum Source, it is interesting, but I rather suspect it won't get used too much. The amount of extra damage you could deal by having it perked (by being able to cast a few more nukes a minute and the nano-vulnerability debuff) isn't quite good enough compared with Trance or Starfall, and Channel Rage (for the AAD and NR if nothing else) and Soothing Spirits (better nano-regeneration than notum source + improved healing) are pretty much mandatory - and that doesn't account for the DtP perkline, which I'm hoping will be an attractive alternative.

    Calcs: Notum Source nano regeneration/minute (including nano-delta) is 3,651. For a nano-cost capped NM, that would allow an extra 3 special effect nukes per minute (most efficient possible nano-cost use assuming the base nukes are already being spammed at cooldown), good for 18.4k DPM. Notum overflow (the nano vulnerability debuff) can be up 1/6 the time and increases nano-damage by 15% on the target while it's up. Sustainable nuke DPM is right around 100k/minute, so Notum Overflow is worth 2.5k DPM. Total DPM increase from the perkline is 20.9k.

    Starfall's total DPM from the same perk doc is lower, at 18.3k, but comes in handy 5 second alpha format and also brings Dazzle With Lights, which can be up 1/2 the time and is our most important perk debuff. Trance just offers more DPM.
    Last edited by JustinSane4; Mar 23rd, 2011 at 18:46:26.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by sannz View Post
    Will there be a perkline for 2hb users other than CohI? If not, I would not mind seeing the Attack Rating of those weapons changed to 100% TS & 25% 2HB. It would make them more interesting compared to a dual-1hb weap setup and allow for dmg setups based around weapons and nukes.
    Good question. Will not affect me but I'm interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by sannz View Post
    Also: Nano dmg debuffs are spammable? Don't like that from my NTs pov.
    Yes, on diferent targets. Its impossible to cast it on an already debuffed enemy and when it wears off, an 20s immunity is given. Dont worry Your DD will beonly nerfed 1/3 of time.
    If you read all 7 pages you will see us MP crying about those immuniies.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  16. #136
    Didnt see the left hand req indeed, good call X. Think i did see that the unique tag might fall off which would mean it could be dual wielded.

    Anyways lets assume they can get the same AR and in both cases ud have to go evades cause thats basically what we do as Mps. Im interrested if it matches out, and id rather not wait till beta for that because basically at that stage it might already be to late.

    So my question does remain, given that we go full defence and given that we have the same AR in all setups what would happen if u lay the damage of 1hb next to the damage of 2hb and Bow?
    Pets get cancelled out because all creation weapons have the same pet buffs
    With a small sidenote of a nukelanding plus on the bow (has to be calculated in)
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  17. #137

    Funcom employee

    As I've noted before, don't really take current perk documentation into too much consideration when busting out the calculator. The perk redraft will be a lot more dramatic than most people probably think - It's going to involve a *lot* of changes, and will be vastly different from what's out there now.

    So yeah. Wait for that one before making too many concrete conclusions. XD
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  18. #138
    Thanks for the reminder - I will put the calculator back in the drawer for the time being .

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post

    What does that have to do with your custom implant that doesn't add NR. Can't have your cake and eat it too (as a MP).
    that have to do with your "and put some effort into gaining NR then...

    k add the 87 NR from the alpha RW if u want, we still lose 410 NR. We are pet/debuff dependant to survive and without any "oh shi*" button, CC remoover, high runspeed i think i can ask if we will have enough NR no ?

    Leduc69 Soli MP 220/30
    Duckz Trox FIX 220/30
    Duczor Opi MA 220/25
    Theducman Nano NT 165/23
    Lazzay Soli CRAT 150/20
    Ducshot Trox TRAD 141


    Chest-kicker since 2007 - http://thespartans.org

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Are you simmulating with all perks landing? Cause only Docs, Def Agents and other MPs cant land then on us.

    Well you not all wrong. Now I can see myself winning a duel against MAs But we cant do proper simulation w/o revamped perk docs.

    I did some calcs with a "new allrounder bow setup" and I got 2.7kish AR w/o AAD loss (only the 70 from SS nerf) but 20s AS on tigress. I'm still trying to figure out things, but seems both AS focused setup and Creation Bow focused setup will work well (at least a bit better than today.)
    I was of the opinion that with the slower perks, our bigger heals, DD debuffs, pet -aao procs and DTP that things would become extremely hard to gank us outright while we'd be able to do some ganking ourself.

    But I might have been a little too fast waiting for that perk revamp layout.

    I'll check out some setups this weekend too when I've got more time on my hands

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