Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[Saetos]

Also, probabilities don't work that way. It's been a while since i've done statistical analysis and probability work, but i don't think you can say that 5 people getting a 15% chance means a 75% increase in crits

I said collectively ...... hush! ;( /me runs off and cries

My point remains that calculations for YOUR shade have next to no relevance for any other shade. Not everyone spams perks as hard, not everyone has the same DD gear, not everyone has the same lag (takes longer to hit perks and slows DD slightly)... those stats are relevant for you, but noone else and this is true regardless of what professions' DD you want to discuss. That is why they are irrelevant to the larger picture.

Again, paper calculations != actual AO numbers.

If you're ever given 15% crit for free as a Shade, you better have the initiative to push and improve your DD in other areas to take the most advantage of it. And it's hard to make nanos and items that incorporate any potential lag a player might experience.

Plus - correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume two Traders would both gain 15% and lose 15% from the other's buff, keeping their 30% crit intact and giving 4 other players 15% crit, making DD much improved for all involved

[Drakeep]

After we countered gaterster trolling attemps, and since this trader nano changes document is a kinda of toilet paper, i think is time to suggest a better one.

Let's starts!

My first cosideration is about drains, expecially at tl5. Looks like fc has no idea about how much AR some TL5 classes have, enfos/advys/soldj/ma expecially.
From actual changes i didn't saw these classes AR goin that lower, niether their potential Alphas.

So far i'd keep drains as they are, putting some level locks on them, for avoiding tl3 laddering nanite drains, either changing their duration to 60 seconds or such.

... or is fc giving us access to acrobat perkline?

Finally i want to remember, since i saw ppls arguing about the wonders of PVM traders, that as it's this document, trader will be a mediocre pvper, and a mediocre pvmer, so what's the good point in being a trader now?

As are now traders are just in the top list of tl5 pvpers, right behind enforcers and advies, and just viable tl7 pvper (who thinks that tl7 traders are op, should start considering playing pacman instead of AO).

Hard to belive that funcom has such problems finding the OP classes, like there wasen't artwork to support em http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5904/truthp.png. (unfortunately im not the artist)

[Lektronik]

To be quite honest... we've been needing SOMETHING that adds damage to our team besides Sacrifice and a 153-point AR buff that's useless with such low MBS values, anyway. 15% crit, for some professions, and especially for potentially five people, is a giant jump in damage for some professions (Shade, anyone?)

We might lose 9%, but a team gaining, collectively, 75% crit damage (well, 66%, but) is huge.

Dang, this whole time I was thinking the AC buff was a "+15 crit" to the trader as well.

Why should traders be expected to give up 9% crit chance just to be wanted in teams? That sounds very unfair. They didn't ask MA's to give up crit chance did they?? I don't care about the "design" of the trader toolset, there are some things that is too much to ask of, and that much crit chance is too much to ask of a crit reliant profession.

And considering all of the crap-damage, phallic-look-a-like weaponry that FC has yet to remedy for traders over the years, I think that the "-15 crit chance" option should be blatantly refused.

[Larafina]

it is not only --15% crit on the ac debuff. if we dont see a massive increase of nanoskills in our perks we will have to wear alot of nanoskill buffing items in pvm, so we would loose another 5 (snipers friend)+ 7 /dust/godness armor) = 13 % of crit to be able to use our nanos, though it should be worth it loosing 13 % crit for a 5 k nuke, but the fact shouldnt be ignored to get picture.

[Drakeep]

Lol poor traders, we are goin to be the crits/skills prostitute (put a coin for crits, put 2 coins for skills).
What a terrible end for a such beautifull profession.

[Gatester]

Mind stopping posting false numbers?

Those being what exactly? I only have the nano document to use.

First of all trader are usually not lazy about casting, in PvP they are usually quite busy with running away and spamming heal on themself. Or root on others.

Yeah, 3 minute drains were so fair in pvp. Although, the comments were also about pvm not pvp, way to stay in context.

The 'more crit' comes with the cost of casting nanos I didn't had to cast before. This is less time to cast important nanos like heals, roots, drains, ...

Wait, what...NOES! More crit comes at the cost of casting more nanos! How dare FC give traders nice things at the cost of doing stuff! By the way, you do know what a "cooldown" is and what it does for casting right?

And just in case we are really bored and can happily keep all those drains up, there's no way that we have twice the healing as before. First of all most health-drains will be resisted in PvP, which puts the new heal probably on the same level as the old, and second if we are 'non-lazy' and keep all the drains up, we simply don't have the time to cast the new heal that often to have '2x healing'...

Player vs Monster traders have 2x healing. Player vs Player is not Player vs Monster. Stop being ignorant and reply to what is said not what you want.

To bad its not enough to avoid being perked by any combat profession, at last at tl5

If those changes would ever hit life there would be almost no active traders in pvp. There is nothing to argue about. Fortunately they wont.

Player vs Player is not Player vs Monster. Traders in pvp will be drastically different and which is why I am remarking mostly on Player vs Monster. You cannot switch up your argument for an entirely different situation when it suits you.

My point remains that calculations for YOUR shade have next to no relevance for any other shade. Not everyone spams perks as hard, not everyone has the same DD gear, not everyone has the same lag (takes longer to hit perks and slows DD slightly)... those stats are relevant for you, but noone else and this is true regardless of what professions' DD you want to discuss. That is why they are irrelevant to the larger picture.

Again, paper calculations != actual AO numbers.

I just finished my testing in AO to bring some rough numbers for consideration. At 3290 attack rating, 15% crit chance increased my shades critical rate by 12% of my total hits on a 275 rubi-ka dyan which I assure you is a high AC mob with above average def. I performed this test by removing crit buffing gear only and not effecting other stats. This was without any procs or temporary perks, only the static debuffs of my SP line. Now my regular damage is increased by 2345 on my main hand and 2380 for every critical hit I make.

30*.12*2345+20*.12*2380 = 14154 damage per minute increase from 15% critical chance

This does not include the -10000 AC debuff, which can effect every regular, critical and especially perk hit. This does not include the benefit of an additional 150 weapon skill, which effects crit rate and perk damage. This does not include my temporary AAD debuffs or -200 evade proc further increasing damage.

Now I mentioned that my numbers may have been off, they were just rough estimates and unfortunately were a bit higher than I would have liked. The way critical chance works is a curving ratio of effectiveness between critical chance, weapon skill, and the targets defense level.

On inferno mobs my critical rate would have been maybe 2 or 3% higher and on aliens it would have been closer to 6 or 7% higher with the 15% increase. Professions with higher attack rating will gain a higher crit benefit from the 15% than my shade and those with lower attack ratings would gain less.

DD gear has no effect on the benefit of crit chance, only attack rating and the number of evade debuffers in team. There is a base level of effectiveness regardless of your ignorance of the mechanics involved, just because you are not aware of it or have taken the time to learn about it does not mean others, like myself, do not have this knowledge.


Now probably the most important part of my rebutle will be to point out the biggest flaw in your argument. You are arguing that I cannot use my knowledge, testing, or any work based on the mechanics in this game to prove the effectiveness of a 15% increase in critical chance. However you are also arguing that this 15% critical chance is not effective enough to make traders desireable in a team. How can you argue that my support for this team buff, which also uses actual testing in game, is less valid than your mere opinion that people will not prefer a trader based on the entirety off their toolset?

"I think" this is not good enough is not an argument because I simply have to say I think it is good and counter you completely, and assuming that a game that functions utilizing basic math and formulas cannot have a certain degree of predictability is the sign of someone who is ignorant of those mechanics and is not an appropriate source of a valid opinion. I am a DD whore and I support this change. Who do you want to team with if not the highest DDers?

Plus - correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume two Traders would both gain 15% and lose 15% from the other's buff, keeping their 30% crit intact and giving 4 other players 15% crit, making DD much improved for all involved

Traders or Mimic Trader agents cannot recieve the team buff based on a notation in the document.

After we countered gaterster trolling attemps, and since this trader nano changes document is a kinda of toilet paper, i think is time to suggest a better one.

Let's starts!

You can't diswade me from posting just by being ridiculously ignorant no matter the shere volume of ignorance you guys can collectively produce. I have yet to see any reasonable support for anyone's arguments, and I will only concede to logic.



I am curious though, if what is currently proposed is not "good enough" for you guys to see traders being teamed in the future, what exactly is your alternative? In addition, anyone who does not think tl1-5 traders were OP is going to find themselves in the minority, so sorry, you get nerfed.

[Larafina]

gatester 15% for the team is definitly nice, and with nanocost going up, traders will be welcome to teams for sure, but that doenst help traders who want to pvp. I dont get it why you you discuss in over 10 posts why 15% crit is a huge dam increase, if you might totally forget pvping on a trader if these changes make life they way they are atm. Spaming plunder wont keep you alive if you eat the full alpha of everyone out there.

My expierince with pvp on my trader is that, even if you land divest before your oppenent can react you still eat so much dam that you have to use dam-to-nano shild and you can only hope that you landed all debuffs by the time your nano runs dry. With drains lasting 15 sec they run out the moment your nano runs out and you definitly dont have full hp at that moment so what should you keep from dying then ? 7 sec roots ? or shall we kill people in 15 sec with our ubar dd-perks and normhits and maybe 1 or 2 2k nukes if we got the time and the luck to land plunder ?

[Saetos]

Traders or Mimic Trader agents cannot recieve the team buff based on a notation in the document.

If it's true for other Traders in the team as well, not just your own, that's rather stupid.

[Drakeep]

I am curious though, if what is currently proposed is not "good enough" for you guys to see traders being teamed in the future, what exactly is your alternative? In addition, anyone who does not think tl1-5 traders were OP is going to find themselves in the minority, so sorry, you get nerfed.

You ever tried to duel with tl5 trader, vs a enfo or ma or an nt?
(When im talking about enfo/ma/nt i refer to the ones that had the bright idea to ip NR a little, not to the s10 farmer noobs, that thinks that raising nr is just for nerds. Or to the noob ma that opened a drama thread about traders, cause he thinked 'lol im so good at evades, lemme bs in full agg')



Go try...

U know nothing about tl5 AR/NR, so why u talks, just cause u saw some s10 farmers (or the uber medsuit twinked toons running their bs dailiy) whining about getting drained?

Being just good in pvp, for a class that is hopeless in pvm, isn't a shame, its just fair.

[Charmedu]

So, gatester, what's your take on TL7 trader pvp come the rebalance? I'd like to know, since you seem to have a good grasp of the document and how things work in practice.

[Charmedu]

Saetos. CP was a good way to temporarily boost our defense in an omni-directional fashion. It is now, as we know, proposed to be cut from our tool set. Seeing our drains have regressed to be worse than they were back in 2001, what's your opinion on this?

[Saetos]

Saetos. CP was a good way to temporarily boost our defense in an omni-directional fashion. It is now, as we know, proposed to be cut from our tool set. Seeing our drains have regressed to be worse than they were back in 2001, what's your opinion on this?

I would definitely like those nanos back in some form.

[-Klod-]

Seriously people, cooldown on drains is too low.

[Drakeep]

Seriously people, cooldown on drains is too low.

we have drains still?

Ah damn, u added 'Seriously', so everything is bad on that drains,
1) duration of the drain

2) ammount of the drain.

3) cooldown.

If the attemps was to stops tl3 trades from casting nanite drains, just adding a 150+ lvl lock to nanite drains solved the problem, and reducing the duration to something like 60 seconds. The cost of nanite drains is already high for a tl5, continuosly casting em will be a problem.

You know trader are the first target under a zerg, since we have no defences cept drains, we go down quickly and this wont change, none will love having his skills lowered even for a small ammont. Since -105 skills wont save u anymore from alphas, u will die before being able to perform any other action cept drain. So the rest of things introduced are useless

[Saetos]

Seriously people, cooldown on drains is too low.

No it's not, our other nanos recharge fast as well so we need to keep track of them as well.

[Plat150]

Why can't FC just leave drains as it is. If there is a need to reduce duration on PVP so be it. Not that it matters as before you can cast both (assuming the first one lands) most likely the trader would be dead. As some TL7 profession have very high AR that a single drain does not matter now.

But to change how drains work in PVM will kill the trader profession.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Why can't FC just leave drains as it is. If there is a need to reduce duration on PVP so be it. Not that it matters as before you can cast both (assuming the first one lands) most likely the trader would be dead. As some TL7 profession have very high AR that a single drain does not matter now.

But to change how drains work in PVM will kill the trader profession.

trader drains didn't used to drain AAO (like 2001 to 2008), and traders still managed in PVM, why talk BS?

[Plat150]

trader drains didn't used to drain AAO (like 2001 to 2008), and traders still managed in PVM, why talk BS?

When you say "managed" what do you mean? Why BS because its people playing BS that says traders are OP especially at lower levels. And traders also like to play BS.

[Shareida]

trader drains didn't used to drain AAO (like 2001 to 2008), and traders still managed in PVM, why talk BS?

Sure, lets go back to the stone age. Hell, delete Keepers, because they didn't exist either 2001.

What a retarded argument.

[Bonghigs]

trader drains didn't used to drain AAO (like 2001 to 2008), and traders still managed in PVM, why talk BS?

Sure, lets go back to the stone age. Hell, delete Keepers, because they didn't exist either 2001.

What a retarded argument.

Agreed. SL didn't exist in 2001 either, so that should be removed as well!