Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[Gunner7]

I think you only need like 2 casts of the nano point drain to prevent an enforcer from raging too.

Statistically speaking, 1800-1900 nanoskills vs. 3300-3400 nano resist, who would come out ahead? 2 casts, yeah right.

Let's look at it this way. Trader starts off with a NR-debuff. 8,5 second cast time will probably amount to around 2 seconds, barring any interrupts from the enforcers melee attacks. Next, divest would be the obvious choice, add another second of recharge. Now it's 2200 vs 3000 in terms of nano skill vs nano resist. Still not enough to land a nano drain more than one out of probably five casts, and that's a reasonable estimate favoring the trader. In reality it's more like once every seventh cast. You see where I'm going with this?

Guess who would come out victorious...

[Syyceria]

I mentioned this in another thread but I'll say it again here - one change I REALLY hoped would happen was for our nanos to be made tradeskill-dependant rather like the engi ones will be.(

I hope not. Yeah it's sad that tradeskilling trader can be roflstomped by nearly everything that runs around on rubi-ka, but the fix should not be to gimp those trader that do a lot of sacrifizes to perform decent in PvP. IP is really tight or do you think i need to put on a lot of twink-items to equip a burden just for giggles? Please don't make me spend IP that I don't have on tradeskills...

[Obtena]

Don't you have a TL5 trader? I'm not suggesting traders didn't need adjustments, especially as the TL's decrease. Could I ask you right now how well your trader does standing and tanking a twinked TL5 Enf?

No, but like I said, it's irrelevant. Balance isn't focused on 1 vs. 1 encounters.

[Syyceria]

Please please please please change the nano-requirements for the ac debuff to ts/pm.

TS/PM used to be the check for all of our hostile nanos, it's what we twink to land our drains/roots reliable.

The AC line has been borked since ever, so MC was the first line of choice to not spend any IP in and don't worry about it.

Now you moved an important tool from our drains to the AC line, crit (de-)buff. I still disagree with this decision, we already have enough to cast. But if you really need to move this buff for whatever reasons, please change the nano requirements at least to TS/PM so that we don't need to max another line that we didn't spend much or even any IP at all.

IP is tight for a trader.

[Gunner7]

No, but like I said, it's irrelevant. Balance isn't focused on 1 vs. 1 encounters.

Then riddle me this; why was GTH nerfed in the first place, if balance isn't focused on 1 vs. 1 et all?
It was even implemented long before any other balance projects found their way to the live servers.

I would rather have no nano and be alive than have full nano and be dead if I was facing any opponent.

[Syyceria]

Hundreds complaining about silly nanos making no fun = change.
Severals complaining about getting alphad by anything = "balance isn't focused on 1vs1".

I really have no clue how "gosh, we don't want GTH/BR like that, just give us please something that gives us the chance to live for more than 10 seconds" could turn into GTH/BR nerfed, drains nerfed, NBD nerfed, roots nerfed and aao-debuff/aad-buff completly removed...

"Dear FC, please give me a defense" - "Here, take this 4h version of your evade buff".

[swedoc]

I certanly feel that the drains and nr debuffs should last longer that 15 sec in PVM, also shutdown skills was handy for stopping that incoming alpha, we just lost that.

Our defence is lower, a lot lower without Corporate Protection / Industrial Sabotage / Shutdown Skills and -aao on drains, how do we offset this?
Will we get access to acrobat line? ;--)

Ranged init is crap, can't go 1/1 with shotgun and a 15% critscope, any possibility of giving us "free" critchance if NOT wearing a critscope to offset this?
Mostly for pvm, since we are losing AS there is no point to wear a AS scope in pvp any more.

Ok, let's see some changes on the next draft of the document.

[Johnnykay]

No, but like I said, it's irrelevant. Balance isn't focused on 1 vs. 1 encounters.

Thank you for ignoring anything I said about team pvp as it currently stands. It just goes to show how naive you are about this entire rebalance. Keep those pom poms handy when enforcers still destroy people 1 on 1 post-rebalance.

[Gatester]

Two casts will take you approximately 8 seconds? 10 seconds? That's assuming you aren't stunned once. We know Enf's suffer from a severe shortage of stuns.

It takes 4 seconds because of insta cast, 4 second cooldown, 2nd cast. TL5 enforcers do not have the stuns of a tl7 enforcer either, it's like 1 reliable stun and some really low chance ones. On the otherhand, a tl5 enforcer is much more effective at killing its relative targets than a tl7, because if their alpha fails they can still kill their target through DPM and the relative defenses of their opponents are far weaker.

Hence, tl5 enforcers are OP imo. A trader in mass pvp will cripple that enforcer though, pretty much like no other profession can.

Gatester before we go any further can you tell me if you have a higher lvl trader yourself or your experience comes from having lvl 1 one?

My trader is 202. So the experiences I have are with leveling through SL and soloing Dark Ruins, AI dailies, regular dailies. Dark ruins would have been so much easier if I could have mezzed the adds, instead I was jumping on top of things and spamming my mezz until it landed, then regained my nano, then jumped down and attacked a mob. I was so upset because despite having Nanite drains I really could not survive well, my healing was not quite enough and a single add pretty much meant death. I was in full CC or CSS as well, so my gear couldn't have gotten much better.

Now without scrutinizing the exact values, I think it will be easier for leveling traders with these changes, and pretty much my only concern is for traders that are leveling or traders that need teams. Soloing end game content is not something I value.

Statistically speaking, 1800-1900 nanoskills vs. 3300-3400 nano resist, who would come out ahead? 2 casts, yeah right.

I was referring to tl5.

[Weltall]

Pvm traders relay on evades to kill stuff and their evades were coming from drains and it was pretty weak compared to easymode pushing acrobat perks or whatever. Now with 15s duration im not sure if there will be any time to cast it between trying to heal yourself. The main concern pvm traders had was low dd output and this unfortunately wont change.

Are you just completely forgetting about local cooldowns? You can be healing all you want while maintaining drains on the target, so 15s duration in pvm does nothing beside make you cast it more often.

[Obtena]

Then riddle me this; why was GTH nerfed in the first place, if balance isn't focused on 1 vs. 1 et all?
It was even implemented long before any other balance projects found their way to the live servers.

I don't know why it was changed. I can only speculate that it was changed because it doesn't really scale correctly with other tools similar to it's function. Just like you would see the 'rebalancing' of any perk that did 5 hits of 1 million damage per hit ... if such a perk existed.

I don't see how that changes what I have said anyways. You really thing that 1 vs. 1 analysis is what is leading to the changes you see being proposed by FC over the last year? I don't.

[Gunner7]

I was referring to tl5.

Oh! Well, in that case, I'll quote someone from the doc forum;

on my tl5 adv i had no reason to complain vs traders cause i alpha most of them even before they have a chance to land the first drain and now it will be even easier to do it....FC got it all wrong

Not like comparing advs to enfs is anything like comparing apples and oranges. It's not in my place to say who has the better alpha at TL5, advs or enfs (I don't play any of them at that level), but I think we can all agree on the basic assumption that they're both leathal to even the mightiest of traders, can we not?

[Obtena]

Thank you for ignoring anything I said about team pvp as it currently stands.

No problem. If it was relevant, I would address it, but it's not. I just don't see how trader team PVP as it is now matters in this discussion.

[Obtena]

... but I think we can all agree on the basic assumption that they're both leathal to even the mightiest of traders, can we not?

Sure, but why does that matter? Since when is ANY PVP result in AO determined by who wins a duel ... other than duels? For all the PVP in AO that has a tangible and game changing outcome, NONE are based on duels.

[Larafina]

@obtena

I made clr and several others did aswell, that you can`t/don`t need to balance team pvp as it has to many variables adn is pretty balanced. So the only way to get informations for a balancing is a 1 vs 1 comparison of survival and killing power. And just to show off my prophetic powers: you will ignore that post too!

[Syyceria]

Are you just completely forgetting about local cooldowns? You can be healing all you want while maintaining drains on the target, so 15s duration in pvm does nothing beside make you cast it more often.

"does nothing more"...let's see

4x divest/plunder each minute just comes with a price tag of 14.4k nano.
Mob critting too hard? There goes another 3 ac-debuffs for 5k nano
This leaves us about 45 seconds for 'healing all you want'.
With 2 seconds recharge, that's about 20 heals...aka 54k nano.

Going with 45% NanoCost-Cap, it turns out to about 41k nano we need each minute.
I don't think we will be able to cover that with stims and NT-lub alone, so it seems like we also have to throw out a few Plagiarize Notums which will regain 4k nano.

I'm too bored to calculate how many PN and heals we could cast at the end, but i'm pretty sure that the mob we are fighting will run out of nano quickly and so will we. So what's the plan to solo hard mobs in the future, make sure to pull 10 adds to it that we could leech nano from?

Anyway, "local cooldowns" should not be used as an excuse that everything will be fine. It won't. Looking forward to see the 2nd draft of the document...

[Weltall]

Yes, does nothing more.

[Syyceria]

Yes, does nothing more.

Can't argue against that, you win...



(Considering duration, nanocosts, reduced effects and removed aao, i would see myself casting the drains as they currently stand in the document once every 10 minutes in PvM.)

[Obtena]

@obtena

I made clr and several others did aswell, that you can`t/don`t need to balance team pvp as it has to many variables adn is pretty balanced. So the only way to get informations for a balancing is a 1 vs 1 comparison of survival and killing power. And just to show off my prophetic powers: you will ignore that post too!

And again, you're association of 'balance' to some sense of fairness or equality to other professions is what is clouding your perception of the process that FC is taking to make these changes. These holistic changes aren't about 1 vs. 1 encounters or based on purely team considerations. It's about fixing tools that don't make sense within the concept of each profession and the result is that there is a more focus on applying more team-based stuff to address gaps that any profession has in an indirect way. It's clear most people don't get that, but that is what is happening here.

ON a more practical approach, I see alot of crying here, but nothing is being suggested that follows the concept being shown to us by FC in this nano proposal. That's alot of fail if we want to see changes. No one is compelled by statements of traders playing in toilets and such.

[Syyceria]

And again, you're association of 'balance' to some sense of fairness or equality is what is clouding your perception of the process that FC is taking to make these changes. These holistic changes aren't about 1 vs. 1 encounters or based on team considerations. It's about fixing things that don't make sense and the result is that there is a more focus on applying more team-based stuff to address gaps that any profession has in an indirect way. It's clear you don't get it, but that is what is happening here.

So removing all defenses from a profession that already complained about having too few makes sense because it forces us to join teams, so we have others to address our gap. Yeah, being forced to find an engineer w/ blockers and 5 pocket-docs/advies is much better than the current state and way more balanced...thanks for opening my eyes. Looking forward to play this way.