The fact that u wont care about QQ, affects me pratically nothing.Originally Posted by Obtena
Oh, is this one of those "QQ, I'm rerolling posts?" people make when they realize they have no valid points to discuss anymore? We /care anywaysJust remember that when you need nano or wish your opponent didn't have nano in PVP.
'lol im so good at nanopool battery' isn't that fun for me. If u are happy of this, good for you.
Apparently, pure force of will allows it, or a crystal ball working overtime. I think anyone objectively looking at the information so far will realize that there won't be steamrolling or alphas anymore, unless people's reflexes are on the order of a sloth.
Last edited by Obtena; Jan 25th, 2011 at 21:22:54.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
You're inability to look beyond this benefit for others in the document is your shortcoming, not mine. There are others, you just seem to ignore them for additional QQ fuel. As another example, you laughed at additional skills a trader gives? Apparently you haven't PVPed in AO before ... who DOESN'T want those? Have you seen some of the requirements on the newer nanos? They won't be nice to have, they will be needed for many. Sorry, you're just not paying enough attention or being reasonable enough to see to see where traders will fit in the bigger picture. The best and ironic part is that it's people like you who will quit their traders will be the ones to complain when there are no traders around for PVP. /shrug.
Last edited by Obtena; Jan 25th, 2011 at 21:22:34.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
Sure, like cherries on a big ****made cake.
(i give u an hint: sh*t, in case u miss the sense)
Lemme guess... in the toilet?
Last edited by Drakeep; Jan 25th, 2011 at 21:28:41.
Enforcer is just the nerfest profession and he cant do anything but steamrolling other people. Trader, on the other hand, can make carbz. Therefore enfs should get more love or at last keep their lovechild status of today and traders should be nerfed. Thats so easy.
Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.
^^ Really, you're going to talk about poo and toilets. And here I thought you were going to make me expose you when you go and did it yourself. Nice.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
Talking with u rise an incontrollable need to visit the toilet, indeed i had just the time to print the trader nano document, that's better than regular toilet paper.
I'd post u how that document looks good into toilet, but since im full of infraction points, i'll post it in some months.
Thanks Anarrina btw. (oops i did write the name without Caps... u know.. )
The incontrollable compulsion did rise not for u Obtena, ofc, but for the uber future u did announced for my trader ;D
Bye trader professionals/community, and thanks for hints and whatever , my trader experience have been short, but fun and intensive ;p
Last edited by Drakeep; Jan 25th, 2011 at 21:50:39.
Heh I like that one cause it is actually in the proper format, if only a little off. Despite how pissed I am about new or leveling enforcers who will be absolutely screwed in regards to their survival, I think I might enjoy mass pvp on my enforcer. See all the nano changes honestly will not effect end game enforcers who needed the nerfs, but just cripple enforcers trying to make it into the big leagues.
The trader changes, however, seem to be the opposite. They allow new or leveling traders to have a very easy time as it will pretty much be mez, heal, nano drain, heal in the majority of their leveling. All the complaints about trader pvm just seem completely unfounded to me with nothing to support them. End game or pvping traders, however, will be struggling to be effective in mass pvp.
Obtena is absolutely correct that nano draining will cripple a great deal of players, especially the healers, but unfortunately AO lacks any remotely user friendly targeting for pvp. If traders could type /target Doctorxxx in mass pvp without much trouble then traders would be one of the best assets in mass pvp, but as it stands they will only be incredibly effective in small skirmishes or 1 v 1 encounters as usual.
So, in other words, we got a new GTH, and that´s about it. Don't you think that one will get 'balanced' again?
Let me state it again for the devs: WE DO NOT WANT A TOOL TO REMOVE NANO POOL FROM OTHER CLASSES TO PREVENT THEM FROM CASTING. It has been a bad idea, and always will be.
Edit: @ Gatester.
If you look closely at the document, note the nano cost of the programs. We asked for lesser casting, we got it, as a trade-off we lost 900% of the duration of our hostile on-target nanos. Lower level Traders will drain once every 10 minutes, and struggle to keep the nano pool up to spam Health plunder on the target. Thats what will happen.
I just wonder what we are supposed to do in the remaining 9:30 minutes, after we are done casting? a fling shot every 6 seconds, and a few low damage perks. Reminds me of a keeper.
Oh, even l 250 mobs run out of nano quickly. How are we supposed to drain from an empty mob? We do not gain a single Nano point from an empty target.
Last edited by Shareida; Jan 25th, 2011 at 23:05:03.
Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
Freshman Jefferey"Bailan2"Ginsberg - Retired
Shareidah - First Order
A Producer's point of view
I guess we are supposed to buy a nanostim for recharging mobs lol.
Maybe an nt should cast the uber new pnh on the mob
Right, 2k nano every 40 secs. sounds promising.I guess we are supposed to buy a nanostim for recharging mobs lol.
Maybe an nt should cast the uber new pnh on the mob
Thats almost enough for one health plunder @ 2,8k nanocost.
Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
Freshman Jefferey"Bailan2"Ginsberg - Retired
Shareidah - First Order
A Producer's point of view
/tell Datfixer gfs please
Two casts will take you approximately 8 seconds? 10 seconds? That's assuming you aren't stunned once. We know Enf's suffer from a severe shortage of stuns. I can't pretend to know what professions you play, but I know standing around for 8-10 seconds my old 164 Trader meant a quick trip to reclaim and on my endgame 220 MP means I'm either dead or running.
My argument is I have yet to see a dramatic change in an Enforcer's offensive firepower so long as they have the ability to catch their prey. I have yet to see any changes suggesting an enforcer with gsf will have huge difficulties catching anyone. Looking from a duel standpoint, I guess I was hoping that certain profs would not be forced to kite melee profs to survive. Melee profs absolutely hate kiters, and to be honest, ranged profs I'm sure would prefer not to be force to kite. I understand rage will have a cooldown, but CC tools are receiving cooldowns as well.
I agree that we've yet to see how NR may be changed. However, I really don't see the removal of runspeed from rage sending one of most powerful pvp profs to the end of the line.
Don't you have a TL5 trader? I'm not suggesting traders didn't need adjustments, especially as the TL's decrease. Could I ask you right now how well your trader does standing and tanking a twinked TL5 Enf? Fixing tools for PVP in my opinion would allow profs to have a chance against every prof through various measures, be them debuffs, defenses, or offensive firepower. I repeat my argument that TEAM PVP rebalance is a joke that the devs are going to hide behind in case the rebalance is a failure. If team pvp was the main focus, then support profs have no problem right now so long as there is a 220 doc to heal them. But is that balance? I'd say it isn't.
Last edited by Johnnykay; Jan 26th, 2011 at 00:25:28.
Good point; that nano will be the new scarce resource..
While Doctors can pull healing out of nothing, the trader must take it from himself, the same with AC, skill and nano..
They can -also- steal to them selfs from monsters, so:
1) Steal from monster ->buffing self
2) giving to team -> gimping self
Indeed a "battery" of nano, health and skill.
At least that was the original idea for traders, now they seem to just spawn nano out of nothing to the team, having to push a button every 60 seconds to do that..
Give monsters a lower nano pool, if "draining nano is an important thing", I have only seen low lvl monsters running out of nano, and that is when a high lvl trader drains them..
The current way to disable monsters (and players) are: Decreasing initiative/speed) and Decreasing skill, so they can not cast..
Stealing nano, which costs credits is nothing in the big picture, the steal is simply too little and takes too much time, compared to disabling the monster/player by drain skill or health instead..
I want Traders, not Givers..
team buffs -> gimp trader
or the smart trader:
drain monster/player -> über trader
buff team -> OK trader and über team
Traders do something active (drain), they should be better than a profession that does nothing, as an example Soldier..
Profession that are good all the time, with no action needed, to me that should mean less DPS.
Just like a fixer using special bullet attacks and bow users first tradeskilling (making 20 at a time), then using special arrows.
Effort -> significantly more DPS.
and that is all what a trader is about: A LOT of effort in keeping the drains up, so (s)he can keep supporting the team with extra AC, skill and backup healing in tight situations..
If NTs are glass canons, then Traders are a glass vial of health,nano and skill.
Break the bottle and the team will spill that resource..
The new team nano buff comes out of nothing..
A nano you need to cast every 60 seconds..
That is an annoying bandaid, not a solution.. if Traders shall be the new masters of nanopool, then what about the NT Humedity Extractors, cost increase and decrease of MPS?.. to be honest a 25% discount is a pretty good thing, it also runs for 4 hours..
Indeed, you need to fill nano up even when you have the 25% discount (MP/NT nano savers), but stims and nano kits do that quite fine together with the genius perk..
a trader is a nice extra bonus, but if the only argument for a trader is a nano buff button he has to push every 60 seconds, then it is indeed sad for the traders.
Their skill, AC drains, nano AND healing should be the reason..
They are the jack of all trades.. but with a cost.
Kind Regards
-Ariensky
PS. I have noted this before, and will do it again: Please behave..
What good does this following sentence bring, other than an invitation to flamewar?
You put nothing constructive, just an insult.. and -then- you start explaining the thing you said you would not explain, though you started by claiming that the person disagreeing with you is too stupid to understand..
This is not the first time you do this Obtena.
Please consider to be more polite and less flaming..
You are a professional, to me that means rising one's standards to be better than the average poster and certainly not one starting a solid debate with provocative statements.
"what can I say ... that's just stupid PVP fail." with that sentence you -show- that you have considered your wording, and still taking the "your argument is stupid and fail"-approach..
Your argument would have been just as valid, if not more -without- that sentence.. because it shows an argument rather than your judgement over those arguing the contrary.
Humankind can not gain anything, without first giving something in return.
To obtain; something of equal value must be lost.
That is the 1st law of equivalent exchange
Rubi-Ka needs: a nickel statue of an astronaut pointing at the sky
With the description / plate saying:
When the stars burn out and I find I lack the strength to continue...one of YOU wil pick up the flag and carry it forward.
This really isn't a corporate product anymore...it belongs to all of us. Where it goes it up to us.
THIS! THIS! THIS!
I do disagree a little with Gatester regarding how good at pvm traders will be, but the general idea of this post sums things up very nicely.
Here's my concern (as i alluded to before). It seems that "The Great Rebalancing" really isn't about balancing. I think "The Great Removal of Things That Annoyed People" is more accurate, and that's not a bad thing in theory.
Unfortunately, in practice it doesn't work. Why? because the "annoying" things are what make support professions work. Crats need those init debuffs to help maximize their evades since they lack significant other healing... Traders need skill debuffs to make their mediocre-at-best defenses more viable in pvp... etc etc. The bulk of the changes being made are not really balancing professions out; they are just removing/shortening/etc the aspects of the game that are annoying to people.
Now, i'll admit i don't like being skill drained or rooted on my alts either, but to remove them without doing other things like lowering an Enfo's alpha capability (easy example i know, forgive me) is not balancing...
Proud Member of Paradise
Okay hmmm. As Kintaii stated, they wanted to try a new approach, and get people to argue about the document i guess. So they posted the worst case scenario for traders.
All that is left, is to fine tune the suggested changes.
My mayor points:
Duration of Skill drains: PvP 30 to 60 seconds, PvM Unchanged (3:30) and keep the aao drain in PvM.
I am not against the move of + crit from Divest/plunder lines.
However I believe that either our pets should receive a mayor buff in duration and offense OR Nanobot defense gets a MAYOR boost in duration to give us some static defense. Maybe even both, interlocking each other. (either huge off or def, but not both)
Next off, I understand that healing tone down is inevitable, but NOT i repeat NOT, make it a nano depending on cast-on-target.
I suggest a program that will punish players attacking us, making us rather a target for shutdown or CC. Damage shields, or -AAO on hitting us would be a nice idea.
We are a hybrid class relying on casting AND ranged damage. We should be vulnerable to casters, such as Nukes and Debuffs.
Melees should be most vulnerable to pure casters, and have high resistance to close combat.
Pure casters should be most vulnerable to close combat.
Build the nanos/perks according to that, and PvP/PvM will have fixed roles, and everyone will be happy.
Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
Freshman Jefferey"Bailan2"Ginsberg - Retired
Shareidah - First Order
A Producer's point of view
Talking about range damage. Can FC gives traders one light blue ranged weapon skill preferably ranged energy. I know this is being done at present but the IP cost is very high. A little love please.
I mentioned this in another thread but I'll say it again here - one change I REALLY hoped would happen was for our nanos to be made tradeskill-dependant rather like the engi ones will be.
Given our TS perklines and buffs it's clear traders were also meant to be tradeskillers....it would be really nice if we didn't have to struggle for IP and be forced to choose between being effective at combat or effective at TSing.
Otherwise trader TSers will quickly become completely obsolete, and that would make me sad
With that, they'd have to redesign drains so that they'd buff tradeskills as well, and it's hard to justify that being good at machinery and computers makes you a stellar debuffer.
[[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
== Proud Member of Core ==
[[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist
Gatester before we go any further can you tell me if you have a higher lvl trader yourself or your experience comes from having lvl 1 one? My concern comes from fact that your vision of pvm trader is a bit retarded. Proposed changes are a huge nerf to any pvm trader (aka the profession that was one of the worst anyway). Pvm traders don’t need any nano drains as they don’t run out of nano with accumulator procs. On my 150 trader I didn’t have a single nano drain bought up to tl5 when I got the highest possible ones from rka and sl to annoy people in pvp. Pvm traders relay on evades to kill stuff and their evades were coming from drains and it was pretty weak compared to easymode pushing acrobat perks or whatever. Now with 15s duration im not sure if there will be any time to cast it between trying to heal yourself. The main concern pvm traders had was low dd output and this unfortunately wont change. Their weapons are simply not good, especially that you need a crit scope to make any use of them and lower levels lack initiatives dramatically. AC drain buff is indeed nice to have but with drains nerfed and maybe not even worth casting traders are actually going to loose some chunks of their dd output from lower ar and less crits from it. Calms etc. at lower levels are irrelevant, there were no problems with calms once you drained a bit.
What I see from this documentation when it comes to pvm is no changes at all in its effect so traders are most likely going to remain one of the weakest professions. The main thing that’s going to change is way more clicking and while it may sound entertaining for someone it isn’t, as trader was already a profession that kept people busy and in fact one of more enjoyable ones, at last to me. Now its gonna besomething like a shade when it comes to gameplay but without its dd potential; crazy clicking 24/7 while most other toons do exactly same way better anyway without hurting their fingers.
Proposed changes look like a kitten trying to catch his tail; evades are going down so we give better healing, healing cost are going up so we give better nano drains, nano drains are getting some love so we nerf drains and so on. I think those changes are proposed to keep people excited and trolling on forums to make a false impression that AO is still alive while it isn’t since around 2009. Im also pretty sure that even if those changes will ever hit life it wont be enough to attract people who emo quit long time ago. Maybe for a month or two but later on they will find ol’ good grind. Same goes with engine. S….t warped into celofane doesn’t become a chocolate unfortunately.
Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.
Well this thread is certainly getting constructive fast...
Anyway although the Trader changes are pretty dynamic I'm kind of excited about them overall. Afterall this was more like a rough-draft of the changes so far. And it looks like a great step for traders in the right direction toward actually being useful in pvm, hopefully. Unfortunately, it still leaves tl7,5 and to a lesser extent lower level traders in pretty much the same scenario now in terms of no omni-directional type defense and no way from stopping anyone from perking us to death; except that now we're even less adept at doing that. That being said I'm not panicking yet because I think the some of changes could perhaps allow for Traders to actually gain one (some sort of realistic defense).
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