Engineer mines

[Kitesfear]

Ahahahaa. You managed to edit your most glaring stupidities out of the post while I was making mine.

I'll just repost the last part of the previous post as a reply to your edited version, then:


*The original argument you attacked against had no mention of time in it, you just claimed that two pets would land more snares with 18 tries (counted together) than one pet. Which, of course, is load of bollocks too.

PS. 90%

[Manaas]

The "original" attack was the statement: "you regularly use one pet?"

Any of the 10% of the non stupid population of this world would have realised my point in asking about that.

You, falling in the category of the other 90%, have failed to understand the point for 2 pages of posts and have now got nothing more to say.

Congratulations

[agentwolve]

should of been a blow job

[Mostadio]

lol...

[sultryvoltron]

you STILL believe that with two pets that it would not land more than 4 times out of 18?

Yes. Because if two pets try to land the snare 9 times each (total of 18 times), it is the same landrate as one pet trying the snare 18 times (total of 18), or even 18 pets trying the snare 1 time (total of 18).

So with two pets, 18 trials, I would bet lots and lots of money that you would have an average of 4 successes.

. . .

Edited out personal insults because they are irrelevent.

Land rate is the same for each pet, we have established this. That is our constant

Ok, we're finally getting somewhere!

HOWEVER: what changes is the amount of trials, because you have TWO FREAKING PETS.

Ok, we're clearly all caught up at this point.

If you're too blind to notice that 4/18 is the same as 8/36 then god help us, what are our schools teaching children these days.

So what you're telling me is the LANDRATE (as defined by successes/failures) is the same if you have 18 trials, 36 trials, 9 trials, 72 trials, etc. Did one pet do all the trials? Or 10? Or does it even matter? It doesn't.

Also, I just realized you said this:

2 pets, same amount of time (7minutes whatever)

i can say with absolute CERTAINTY that the snare aura would have landed more than 4 times if we take 2/9 as the land rate per pet.

If you're going to try and deny that then there's seriously something wrong with you.

You do realize that if the landrate is less than 100%, it is entirely possible to land exactly 1, or even 0, snares out of 36 attempts right?

[Manaas]

And you've still completely sailed over the point

great job.

And of course the number of pets used matters you total mong, we are NOT DISCUSSING THE INDIVIDUAL LAND RATES PER PET, how many freaking times does it need to be said????

You do realize that if the landrate is less than 100%, it is entirely possible to land exactly 1, or even 0, snares out of 36 attempts right?

Please learn English: "WOULD have landed" This means given different factors in the SAME circumstances. Not a completely new trial.

Bottom line is: you are getting twice the amount of trials in the same amount of time, meaning you get a HIGHER success rate than the original number of trials. This is just plain and simple and I cannot believe it has taken over 2 pages and you still don't get it or you're just deliberately not getting it for reasons beyond my comprehension.

I'm going for a final attempt to drive this concept home to the few unbelievable people above:

I'm throwing rocks at a coconut, I manage to throw 20 rocks in 1 minute and hit the coconut 5 times in that minute.
I decide (because I can) that I did not hit the coconut enough times so here's what I do: I enlist the help of my identical twin brother and we stand equidistant to the coconut with 20 stones each and the throw them at the coconut. For simplicity's sake we also take 1 minute to do this.

Now here's the hard part: How likely is it that we hit the coconut LESS times than before when I was on my own? How likely is it that we hit it more times?

[MajorOutage]

ITT: Arguments between people who don't actually play an engineer.

[Xirayne]

manaas, by definition success rate is the ratio of successful hits to misses, not hits per minute.
that would be frequency.

but yes in a period of time.. more pets = more snares ( that like to break on hit )

on a side note, I just got the eff kited out of me on my keeper by an engi cuz of that unremovable snare mine
I wouldn't mind it able to be used more often if I could use FM to remove it, or at least a shorter duration.

[sultryvoltron]

And you've still completely sailed over the point

great job.

And of course the number of pets used matters you total mong, we are NOT DISCUSSING THE INDIVIDUAL LAND RATES PER PET, how many freaking times does it need to be said????



Please learn English: "WOULD have landed" This means given different factors in the SAME circumstances. Not a completely new trial.

Bottom line is: you are getting twice the amount of trials in the same amount of time, meaning you get a HIGHER success rate than the original number of trials. This is just plain and simple and I cannot believe it has taken over 2 pages and you still don't get it or you're just deliberately not getting it for reasons beyond my comprehension.

I'm going for a final attempt to drive this concept home to the few unbelievable people above:

I'm throwing rocks at a coconut, I manage to throw 20 rocks in 1 minute and hit the coconut 5 times in that minute.
I decide (because I can) that I did not hit the coconut enough times so here's what I do: I enlist the help of my identical twin brother and we stand equidistant to the coconut with 20 stones each and the throw them at the coconut. For simplicity's sake we also take 1 minute to do this.

Now here's the hard part: How likely is it that we hit the coconut LESS times than before when I was on my own? How likely is it that we hit it more times?

The entire discussion has been about the landing rate of the snare. It has been from the beginning. It's you that keeps trying to bring up the number of successful snares from two pets in a given amount of time. That has absolutely nothing to do with landrate.

Also, here's a recap of something I already addressed. You chose to ignore it.

If you land 8 snares in 7 and a half minutes (notice: this is the amount of snares that will hypothetically land from TWO PETS!!!!!!!), you may as well not have landed any snares. That's less than one snare per minute. That landrate sucks.

For furher reading, it takes what? 15 seconds to kill the dog? What PvPer doesn't just kill the dog first? Oh snap, now you're down to one pet and you're gonna land less snares.

[Structure]

Also, Engineer mines.

[Manaas]

The entire discussion has been about the landing rate of the snare. It has been from the beginning. It's you that keeps trying to bring up the number of successful snares from two pets in a given amount of time. That has absolutely nothing to do with landrate.

No, you have horrible reading comprehension.

If you land 8 snares in 7 and a half minutes (notice: this is the amount of snares that will hypothetically land from TWO PETS!!!!!!!), you may as well not have landed any snares. That's less than one snare per minute. That landrate sucks.

It was a test for 7 minutes done by one person (who happens to play engineer as a main) of course it's going to suck. It's going to suck as much as an unreliable and biased source of data will suck. And NO IT WAS NOT TESTED WITH TWP PETS, learn to freaking read. Where in Kitesfear's post did he say he was standing next to BOTH pets????

For furher reading, it takes what? 15 seconds to kill the dog? What PvPer doesn't just kill the dog first? Oh snap, now you're down to one pet and you're gonna land less snares.

Yes it takes 15 seconds to kill the dog which has 49% reflect and is not possible to use sneak attack on since it is a pet and not a player.

Sultry do you know ANYTHING about engineers? If you start talking about soldiers and FA and how easy they kill dogs I'm going to just ignore you and pass you off as illiterate.

And no: it has not been about the land rate at all.

Go back and read, read again, then again. Then read some more.

The whole discussion STARTED with my comment about kitesfear talking about standing next to the widowmaker for 7 minutes on his MA, I then proceeded to ask if he only ever uses one pet. NUMBER OF PETS IS SIGNIFICANT, get that through your damn skull.

If you can't understand the coconut thing then maybe I can explain it mathematically: Do you know how cumulative binomial distribution works?

@Xirayne Yeah I guess I mean "number of successes" but at least you understand what I mean..

HERE is what sparked this whole travesty off. Neither post has been edited in any way and I suggest you go away, re-learn english and try reading it again.

EDIT: In fact I just read the posts again and you+wolve just confused yourselves by putting words in my mouth. Wolve said "higher chance of landing per attempt" Which I never said. You even had the right idea at the start when you said "it would land faster" so I'm just baffled at why you have taken the longest road possible again to understand?

[Kitesfear]

Still, I have no reason to believe that even with two pets, the aura wouldn't land about 4 times of every 18 tries on my MA.

then you're utterly deluded or just not telling the truth.

If you're too blind to notice that 4/18 is the same as 8/36 then god help us,

2 pets, same amount of time (7minutes whatever)

i can say with absolute CERTAINTY that the snare aura would have landed more than 4 times if we take 2/9 as the land rate per pet..

Bottom line is: you are getting twice the amount of trials in the same amount of time, meaning you get a HIGHER success rate than the original number of trials.

manaas, by definition success rate is the ratio of successful hits to misses, not hits per minute.
that would be frequency.

Now, these quotes should quite much cover the debate.

You, Manaas, my fiery friend, talk about success _rate_ but mean actual landing snares. The success _rate_ doesn't change with more pets, cause the more pets, the more tries. You stated that yourself in the quote number 3.
Everyone should be able to see that with given stats, two pets should land the snares 8 times in the 7 and half minutes. No one has said otherwise, tho you seem to think we have. Again, the rest of us have been talking about the success/landing/hit/etc _rate_, not about the actual number of the successes (which, with one pet in the time frame is 4, with 2, 8, with 3, 12, with half a pet, 2 and so on and so on.)
For the landing _rate_, the number of pets doesn't matter a thing. The _rate_ won't go up or down, no matter how many pets you have. The number of actual landing snares goes up with more pets, of course.

Are we finally in an agreement here?



PS. Actually, the MA is my "main" PvP toon. I reseted my engie for damage, tradeskills etc (tho he can still swap an AS weapon on when needed) fooled by the Soon to Come! balancing about a year ago, depending on the full IPR they'd surely give to us at the summer '10, at the latest.

[Manaas]

Im glad we finally understand each other >.>

[Kitesfear]

Great, you see how using the correct words and not shouting insults around makes everything easy!

Now, let's be friends again and go back to the soldier forums to argue about damage++ items so Beri'll get something to do.

[Manaas]

im going to just leave the last jab because im the bigger person.

And I still haven't had my damage test with Berinda

[sultryvoltron]

If you can't understand the coconut thing then maybe I can explain it mathematically: Do you know how cumulative binomial distribution works?

It means the chance of a successful trial goes up with every subsequent trial. It has nothing to do with how many people or Engi pets do the trials.

Number of pets is NOT SIGNIFICANT to landrate of the snares.

As you have by now figured out, number of successful snares in a given time frame is not the same thing as the landrate, which is what everyone but you is talking about.

[Brofist]

While we are on the topic of Snare Aura, can we please get it to stop canceling on zone?

[Mostadio]

While we are on the topic of Snare Aura, can we please get it to stop canceling on zone?

No. This is a good thing.

[agentwolve]

While we are on the topic of Snare Aura, can we please get it to stop canceling on zone?

who wants random flags when leaving BS

[Brofist]

who wants random flags when leaving BS

You can cancel the aura with a nano, and I have to cancel NSD before I leave BS anyways. Just get rid of intrusive aura cancellations like 8 second recharge and make it affect both pets at once. Problem solved.