Want Dynacamps on Dovve's Map? Yes or No?

[Canto]

Originally posted by Suzsu

We should probably drop this anyway; she has apparently made up her mind.

"Attention: Suzsu

The horse is dead.

Why are you still beating it?"

Nospeak, I see you have mastered the art of cliche, but have not yet attempted the much more daunting task of reading this entire thread. The answer to your question is "Because I feel like it."

[Jynne]

I read your flame, Suzsu. I am not going to flame in reply, because I wasn't flaming you. That you read that as an attack against you does not entirely surprise me but, regardless of what you think, it was not.

I do not feel this thread is the right place for flaming, and I was hoping everyone would let the fires that were getting started die down. If you have a burning desire to take issue with me, I have my private messages enabled, feel free to take advantage of them.

[____________Nothanks]

How to NOT Receive Constructive Replies to Your Posts:

A Guide By Suzsu




1. Alienate Your Potential Allies

Any other arguments against an accurate map are either disingenuous or naive.

Before you make your argument it is important that you insult everyone who shares the opposite point of view. This is important because:

It alienates everyone whose only objection to the dynacamps was "map clutter." These are people who made up a large percentage of your oposition, and would have happily joined you if you offered them a suggestion to reduce map clutter. Instead you offered them a flame. Congratulations! Now thoroughly alienated, these people who would have been the easiest to convince to join your side now hate your guts!
--


2. The Tao of Trolling
Insult a person who is highly respected in the AO community. For example, a person like Dovve. Bonus points awarded for using a patronizing tone of voice. Double bonus points awarded if your post is a reply to a thread posted by such person! For example, it is much better to say:

In effect, you are siding with the "flat-earthers." For a cartographer, that is a very interesting position to take.

than it is to say what you really mean:

In effect, you are siding with the "flat-earthers." For a cartographer, that is a very stupid and unprofessional position to take.

If you pull this off correctly, you will be in the unique position of being able to deny any harmful intent later (see Step 4), while at the same time conveying what you really wanted to say to everyone who reads your message! Congratulations!
--


3. The Homer Simpson Analogy
Use bad analogies. Use lots of bad analogies. Bonus points awarded if you analogies include some form of organized religion. This really alienates a lot of religious people and has been the start of many an internet flame war!

For example, a great analogy to use would be:

The NYC Subway Map includes locations of tracks, stations, transfers and exits. However it does not include the locations of bathrooms. So the end result will be that the only decent map available of the subway will be a relatively primitive and purposefully inaccurate one. This is reminiscent of the state of affairs in the late middle ages and Renaissance where religious interests fought to stifle knowledge at every opportunity.

Congratulations! Not only have you just alienated all the religious people who might have been on your side before, but your analogy would make Homer Simpson himself proud!
--


4. Plausible Deniability
When people start to respond to your posts with flames, it is important to pretend that you have no idea why. This makes them even more upset, thus eliciting even more flames! This time tested troll teqnique is the most important step to learn because it always generates the most flames.
--


P.S.

We, The Alienated were wondering:

What do you hope to accomplish by continuing to post here after a) Dovve announced that she has made her decision, and b) Receiving a direct response from Dovve herself?

Edit: corrected obvious spelling mistakes. Happy Trolling!

[______Dragon Falcour]

What do you hope to accomplish by continuing to post here after a) Dovve announced that she has made her decision, and b) Receiving a direct response from Dovve herself?

This IS Dovve's thread, perhaps if anyone has any personal battles to attend to it would be done respectfully in another thread that was designed for such

[Canto]

LOL, no one except Dovve has attempted a head-on, thoughtful reply to my posts. Everyone either side steps, resorts to ad hominem or mischaracterizes my posts instead of just answering them. Not even Jynne, whom I respect, wants to address the issue head-on, perhaps because the thought of being in the "knowledge suppressor" camp is troublesome to someone who has helped so many newbs. Fine, as soon as I reply to Nothanks I'm done here and you can all line up to have your "Hurrays," "hug fests" and trade some more cliches at poor old Suzsu's expense.

[Peisinoe]

Think some of you need to get that stick out of your ...

Perhaps Suzsu isn't the most diplomatic huggable person in the world. But he's basically correct. No one forces you to use Dovve's map. So most arguments against placing the dynacamps on it are pointless. His statements were a bit acidic, but the replies to his post were plain stupid.

Still, Dovve does this for free. Don't see why you'd criticize her for what she does.

[Streaz18]

I vote yes as Im lazy and Id like to go do one with a few buddies and be able to tell them where one is in advance and have backups.

[frankt]

I vote yes pls. Main reasons people say no are 1. Spoiler 2. Well cluter the map..
Well as for spoiler, nah this will help lowers lvl have more fun with outdoor hunting. As for higher lvl who cares most of us know where they are now anyways, just now instead of me picking up a piece a paper (my cheat sheet) all i have to do is press p (Dovves awesome map), anyways there is a ton of these so camping wont be a prob.
Cluttering well dovve im sure will solve this for us.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Nothanks
How to NOT Receive Constructive Replies to Your Posts:

A Guide By Suzsu

1. Alienate Your Potential Allies

Before you make your argument it is important that you insult everyone who shares the opposite point of view. This is important because:

It alienates everyone whose only objection to the dynacamps was "map clutter."

This is a straw man, half those folks voted yes and some of the others were undoubtedly window dressing their self-interest, and in any event, none were going to change their mind. Besides, I don't think calling arguments disingenuous or naive is all that insulting. Calling people those things is a different matter entirely, but I don't think I did that.

Originally posted by Nothanks
[B] hate your guts!

This phrase brings back memories, haven't heard it in years.... If someone out there hates my guts I am truly sorry and want to take this opportunity to tell everyone that has posted here that though the discussion gets heated from time to time, I do not hate your guts. I do not even hate your guts, Nothanks, and I hope that over time, people who have come to hate my guts because of this thread will get over it and not hate my guts any more.

Originally posted by Nothanks
[B] 2. The Tao of Trolling
Insult a person who is highly respected in the AO community. For example, a person like Dovve.

I did not intend to insult Dovve and if I did then I apologize.

BTW, Nothanks, that "Tao of ..." is quite a clever construction. Maybe you should copyright it.

Originally posted by Nothanks
[B] 3. The Homer Simpson Anology
Use bad anologies. Use lots of bad anologies. Bonus points awarded if you anologies include some form of organized religion. This really alienates a lot of religious people and has been the start of many an internet flame war!

For example, a great anology to use would be:

Congratulations! Not only have you just alienated all the religious people who might have been on your side before, your anology would make Homer Simpson himself proud!

I see your point here, and am truly sorry for alienating all the religious people out there in RK land. I will try not to alienate religious people in the future with my anologies. Also, I will try to watch more television to find out what in the hell you are talking about otherwise.

Originally posted by Nothanks

4. Plausible Deniability
When people start to respond to your posts with flames, it is important to pretend that you have no idea why. This makes them even more upset, thus eliciting even more flames! This time tested troll teqnique is the most important step to learn because it always generates the most flames.

I am well aware of the reason why people are responding to my posts with flames, and I am not retyping it for you here.

Originally posted by Nothanks
P.S.

We, The Alienated were wondering:

What do you hope to accomplish by continuing to post here after a) Dovve announced that she has made her decision, and b) Receiving a direct response from Dovve herself?

I guess I do it because I enjoy corresponding with you, Nothanks. Tell me, what's your excuse?

[Jynne]

Suzsu: Dovve is my friend, but I do not speak for her, and I will not make public posts, such as flames, that might diminish her satisfaction with her map, even if it is to 'defend' her.

From Dovve's reply I read that she feels there is a risk that adding the camps might reduce her happiness with her map, and that she does not feel comfortable taking that risk. As her friend, that is all the answer I need. My concern has been a concern for her happiness with the game as she plays it, and for me, the argument ends there: I will support what she is happy with, and I will not be moved from that. As I said, knowledge suppression has nothing to do with it, it is entirely about friendship.

But if you want a reason why I myself personally do not agree with you: If people do not expend the time and effort to explore, then they do not have any right to benefit from the exploration of others. Your position seems to assume that people have an inherent right to know where the camps are, regardless of their having explored or not. I counter that no such right exists, and the knowledge of where the camps are is something to be earned.

[____________Nothanks]

Just read your reply.

Your editing advice will be incorporated into future versions of How to NOT Receive Constructive Replies to Your Posts which will also have the subtitle changed to "A Guide By Nothanks with special thanks to Suzsu"

Now that you have completely explained yourself, I ask you to consider this serious question: will you marry me?

P.S. I no longer hate your guts.

[Canto]

Thanks, Jynne.

Nothanks, you are indeed one sexah looking fellow, but I will need alot of time to ponder your marriage proposal.

[Elektro]

Dovve- I think your map is one of the better things that someone has done to enhance gameplay and make it easier to navigate RK. There are many reasons I think it shouldn't contain all the camps locations. I like it just the way it is.

[BigGreen]

First let me say again to Dovve "Thanks"!! I appreiciate the new map and I find it's just as useful as it was before. After I read Dovve's decision, I thought "Well, that's that". The debate raged on however, so I'd like to share my view on the debate, rather than on the decision.
I find some inconsistencies in the "No dynacamps" argument. I'd like everyone to take a look again at the map. Do you see non-geographic items marked? I do. I see Shades, Beetles, Cyborgs and many other MOB areas and points of interest clearly marked. I do not want these items removed just because I didn't "earn" the right to see them by spending hours wandering the map, as Jynne has said. I applaud those who do, I don't want to imply that it's a bad thing. But I believe, and Dovve's map demonstrates, that information wants to be free. To be shared and not hoarded, that is the natural path information takes. It does not make anyone a "spoiler queen" (or king)!
People bemoan the fact that noone goes hunting anymore. This is a perfect opportunity to knock down a huge barrier to hunting! Part of the reason that people do missions versus hunting is about efficiency. You get a mission, you go to the mission, and you have MOBs lined up to take on. Hunting without knowing your destination can take much longer than a mission, yield fewer results, and increase frustration. Now if the likely spots are marked, even with just a dot, a team can reach a hunting spot as fast as they can a mission, and they can have more fun too, since who honestly wants to do another mission after level 50. I'm sure sick of them. Hunting is just more fun. But any hunter is currently at a disadvantage to a missioner in terms of xp, and to some degree loot as well. Why not fix that?
As to "earning" knowledge of dynacamp locations, and earning other bits of information; lets be honest. How many of the people currently 'in the know' actually went out and found all the camps, versus knowing somebody or several somebodies who actually went out and found them? Or just looked it up on this forum? I bet that the majority of people who currently know the locations of the dynacamps got the info from a guildmate or three. That's just how information gets passed along in AO! So, did you "earn" that information, if you didn't go there and look at the camp? If not, at least be fair. I don't see how preventing others from being informed helps anyone, even at "uber loot" dynacamps since there are so many camps out there.
Sorry if I rambled, and please don't take anything I've said as a flame on anyone; I'm more interested in the merits of the arguments than I am interested in changing anyone's mind. With or without the dynacamps marked, I will still use the map and be grateful for all the hard work that was put into it.

[______Dragon Falcour]

Camping is ok as long as everyone picks up their cans and bottles when you leave please. Don't make me call the Obediance Inspector over

[Tikokura]

YES

[Dovve]

Those are some very good points you make Strax,

There is definately a fine line between what is and isn't a spoiler. To an extent I feel that at times I have been flirting with spoilers with a lot of the information that is on the map. Some of the more secret or hard to find things that I took a lot of joy in "discovering" are now pretty easy to find for anyone new to AO. I for example did not find the caves in milkyway untill around the 4.0 version of my map (even after flying along every zone border about 3 or 4 times).

The hunting areas like "NW Mines" were added as they are continual spawns and are not single players fighting over one mob. I am a big fan of outdoor hunting and always had problems getting people to meet up somewhere. Now it's really easy to meet people out there.

What makes the boss camps different from all of the others is that there is one boss at each one, and it does not spawn immediately, some you have to wait quite a while for. There is competition for these mobs in a way that does not exist for regular hunting areas.

Placing these on my map makes it really easy to quickly see the quick path that is needed to hit each camp in a zone in the most efficent manner possible. I can personally go to greater omni forest and clear every single boss in the zone in under 10 minutes. That's really great for me and my alts if i am farming for lower level equipment, but it really is bad for anyone that is in that zone at level 10 who really wants to fight those things.

This kind of thing takes more effort if all you have are coords. Many less people are likely to bother doing this if they have to sift through a coords list and then figure out what is where.

Early on as a test I added the andromeda camps to the map. I do specifically remember visiting thse camps before and after they made it onto my map. Traffic definately went up considerably on these camps when i put them on my map (Granted at that time they were the only ones in rubi-ka and were a new thing). The way things went with the andromeda camps is a big factor in my accepting the "camping problem" reason as valid, and I will probably remove them in a future revision for consitency.

Your argments are well put and make sense. It's a very difficult decsion to make. I just choose to error on the side of safety. I never want to hear anyone say "Yes, those dynacamps were really great untilll Dovve put them on the map".

To come full circle, I want to get people outdoors exploring, I want to make it easy for them to get around, but there is also a limit to how far i feel comfortable going with it. If I map every single special mob, point of interest, and boss, it just leaves nothing left for others to discover. The added fact that special bosses and unique mobs drop "treasure" or fancy items is what makes them a spoiler.

Time will tell if this will ever change. But for now I am going to hold fast to my decision. Mabye I'll bring it up again in another 3 months once the camps have been around a while.

Thanks again for your constructive comments.

-Dovve

[Jayde]

I think they should be left off myself....half for the sake of spoilers, half for the sake of clarity. There's a lot on the map already, and I would be afraid that adding all the dynacamps (there are up to 20 per affected playfields) would make the map a bit too unreadable.

Just my 2 cents. =)

-Jayde

[assassimon]

Originally posted by eaze


I'm quite sure I speak for everyone when I say we love you Keep up the great work, the map rocks, and the theme rocks (not sure if you made it, or just bundled it, but it rocks anyway)

Agree 100% with this.

You helping to make this game alot better with your map.

[________Soulreaper88]

Yes, i think it would be verry helpful if you can fit it with out cludering the map