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Thread: Want Dynacamps on Dovve's Map? Yes or No?

  1. #61
    Martek, going uber semantic on me...

    1) Would you call a photograph of the tip of Manhattan "incomplete," or "inaccurate," if the Statue of Liberty were airbrushed out?

    Would you call a world map that omitted some rivers, even though the cartographer knew where every river was, "inaccurate" or "incomplete?"

    The answer is... both. The incompleteness of the map leads to its inaccuracy. To map certain known content of the type desired in the map and not map other known content of the type desired will yield an inaccurate map. If that is Dovve's desire, so be it, but let's call a spade a spade.

    2) Better directed to FC? I am addressing my opinions to Dovve because she solicited them... in this very thread no less. And based on the work product I've seen from FC, I am not certain if I would want them to even try to make a better map because it would take a year and cost me $29.99 in a booster pack to get Cheers.

  2. #62
    Originally posted by Suzsu
    1) Would you call a photograph of the tip of Manhattan "incomplete," or "inaccurate," if the Statue of Liberty were airbrushed out?
    Not applicable, as nothing is being "airbrushed out". The debate was inclusion, not deletion.

    Would you call a world map that omitted some rivers, even though the cartographer knew where every river was, "inaccurate" or "incomplete?"
    The debate is inclusion of particular "points of interest", not geography. I believe that major geography is included. Even on FC's own map. If you wish to point out geographical omissions, we might all learn from the post.

    2) Better directed to FC? I am addressing my opinions to Dovve because she solicited them... in this very thread no less.
    Yes she did, in this very thread. However I was addressing your specific point. I apologize I wasn't more clear; but it was the following point about which I made that remark:

    Originally posted by Suzsu
    So the end result will be that the only decent map available of RK will be a relatively primitive and purposefully inaccurate one. This is reminiscent of the state of affairs in the late middle ages and Renaissance where religious interests fought to stifle knowledge at every opportunity.
    It's a bit disingenuous to lump a single fan's work with a concerted effort to suppress by knowledge major entities, no? I mean, do you really mean to lump us favoring "no" on this issue, or the decisions of individual fans creating works, with the Spanish Inquisition? Surely not! But if you were to be serious about it, then the analogy would be closer if FC itself were to censor the work and forbid its release.

    In any case, it was your above point that I was addressing as more applicable to be argued with FC and not an individual fan; as it is an argument against organized suppression of information. That is hardly applicable to an individual's query on the direciton of a work they have created.

    As it is, there is abosolutely nothing preventing you from taking up the cause if you feel strongly about it.

  3. #63
    Originally posted by Martek-SLAG
    Not applicable, as nothing is being "airbrushed out". The debate was inclusion, not deletion.
    My analogies are apt. Address them or not, but don't try to split hairs (again) to dance around them.

    Originally posted by Martek-SLAG
    The debate is inclusion of particular "points of interest", not geography. I believe that major geography is included. Even on FC's own map. If you wish to point out geographical omissions, we might all learn from the post.
    The "debate," if any, is whether to include dynacamps on a map. My position is 1) that a map of such camps would be extremely beneficial to the entire community; and 2) the only good reason for not including the new camp is that people who expend the effort to find them first should be rewarded with gameplay advantages. I believe that 90% (maybe all) of the other "nay" reasons posted here are really this reason in disguise. 3) The benefit to the community as a whole outweighs (2) by alot. But apparently Dovve has already made up her mind, so this is moot.

    Originally posted by Martek-SLAG
    It's a bit disingenuous to lump a single fan's work with a concerted effort to suppress by knowledge major entities, no?
    We operate characters on a fake world; Dovve is the chief cartographer. Many people have reasons to suppress terrestrial knowledge and seek to use their persuasion here to facilitate that suppression. Haves v. Have Nots, same old story. The analogy is apt.

    Originally posted by Martek-SLAG
    In any case, it was your above point that I was addressing as more applicable to be argued with FC and not an individual fan; as it is an argument against organized suppression of information. That is hardly applicable to an individual's query on the direciton of a work they have created.
    Martek, your last two posts are full of cheesy avoidance of the issue at hand. Either drop it and discuss the issues head on or we have nothing further to discuss. We should probably drop this anyway; she has apparently made up her mind.
    Last edited by Jutlina; Oct 14th, 2002 at 23:10:44.

  4. #64

    Don't like your tone, Suzsu

    Dovve's map is a gift, she has expended considerable effort on it.

    Be grateful for what you have, don't take a snarky tone because you disagree.

    To turn this map into a proxy for some bizarre imagined class warfare indicates paranoia.

    You are lucky to have it at all.
    Vergil : OT NT : Dept of Applied Nanotechnology
    Jobe Plaza
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    Proud Owner of RubiKa's Biggest Banjo Collection
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  5. #65

    Thumbs up Very Much Yes

    If the spoilers are an issue, make two versions. One with and one without. I personally would really like to see where these are on my map... something subtle to mark a point of interest but not necessarily naming the individual camp?

    --Sorry, this was posted after the decision was made.-- <edit>
    Last edited by Psionik; Oct 15th, 2002 at 00:52:35.

  6. #66
    Originally posted by Suzsu
    So the end result will be that the only decent map available of RK will be a relatively primitive and purposefully inaccurate one. This is reminiscent of the state of affairs in the late middle ages and Renaissance where religious interests fought to stifle knowledge at every opportunity. In effect, you are siding with the "flat-earthers." For a cartographer, that is a very interesting position to take.

    Those who have posted here that they feel that the camps should "belong" to the ones who took the time to find them are being honest, if a little short sighted. Any other arguments against an accurate map are either disingenuous or naive.
    I have spent countless hours on this map making sure it is the most accurate map available of Rubi-Ka. Every inch of it was visited (and readings taken) by myself to bring people the best representaion of the world possible. It may not be "complete" but it is accurate, and hardly primitive.

    There is no written law that I have found that states cartography must include all biological lifeforms and their locations on maps (in fact I have yet to find a real life map that does). I am choosing not to do so on the one I make. As for stifling anything, I am not stopping anyone from going and making a map of their own with these locations.

    I can admit that it is possible that adding these places to the map might not be bad. Sure, mabye we are all worried for nothing. But once done it can't be undone and I don't really feel like becomming the "spoiler-queen" that messes things up for half the planet and creates camping problems (the camps I added in andromeda were a good example of this).

    Please try to appreciate the fragile nature of mmorpg game dynamics. I do find it a little odd that i am in a position to affect them but now that I am, I have to act responsibly and carefully.

    I feel that what I have created is a usefull (and free) tool that helps a lot of people. I'm not forcing anyone to use it.
    Last edited by Dovve; Oct 15th, 2002 at 07:22:42.

  7. #67

    Thank You

    Thank you for the work you have done and also for keeping some type of exploration in the game, finding a good spot yourself is a very good thing.

  8. #68
    I want the dynacamps on map!
    Azzazzimon
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  9. #69
    As much data as possible please.

    This game is unplayable with out your maps and guides
    Kissysuzuki 220 - 24 - 60/70
    Minisuzuki 205 - 9 - 13/70
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  10. #70
    Half of these replies are bull****. "I know where the camps are, please dont tell anyone else".

    Obviously, adding these camps to the map would be great. Anyone stating it's a spoiler - get a damn grip, people who download dovve's map wants the help provided, people who want to explore everything, uses the default map.

    Lich × Finalizer × Dictator × Vanguard × Techno Arch-Wizard × Godfather × Eternalist × Saviour × Deity × Guru


    'People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use' - Kierkegaard

  11. #71
    I feel that what I have created is a usefull (and free) tool that helps a lot of people. I'm not forcing anyone to use it.
    I'm quite sure I speak for everyone when I say we love you Keep up the great work, the map rocks, and the theme rocks (not sure if you made it, or just bundled it, but it rocks anyway)

    Lich × Finalizer × Dictator × Vanguard × Techno Arch-Wizard × Godfather × Eternalist × Saviour × Deity × Guru


    'People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use' - Kierkegaard

  12. #72
    Your desire not to be known as the "spoiler queen" is understandable. I don't think this would be the case, and in fact think the opposite would be true, but it is a substantive reason not to include the camps. Maybe after the camps have been around for awhile, you might reconsider this issue. Thanks again for the map and for soliciting our opinions.

    P.S. Vergil... "Don't like your tone." "Snarky" is apparently slang meaning "irritable or irascible." If you are inferring irritability from my use of the words "primitive" or "inaccurate" in previous posts, you are mistaken. My argument was that a map that purposefully does not include as much relevant content as possible is relatively primitive and inaccurate in degree to one that does. I have as much right as you do to state my opinion forcefully.
    Last edited by Jutlina; Oct 15th, 2002 at 15:38:40.

  13. #73
    Ok, let me be more direct....

    Anyone who criticizes a GIFT is a jerk.
    Vergil : OT NT : Dept of Applied Nanotechnology
    Jobe Plaza
    Retired NT Professional
    Proud Owner of RubiKa's Biggest Banjo Collection
    Server First!

  14. #74
    Originally posted by eaze


    I'm quite sure I speak for everyone when I say we love you Keep up the great work, the map rocks, and the theme rocks (not sure if you made it, or just bundled it, but it rocks anyway)
    Thanks eaze And yes the theme was pixel painted by yours truly

  15. #75
    I am behind Dovve entirely, and I would be regardless of what path she chose to take. I have known her for a long time, and I consider her one of the wisest, and kindest, people on Rubi-Ka. This was not an attempt to leave people out, act elitist, or suppress knowledge, it was a question asked in good faith by a responsible person who wished to make a good decision.

    Please show her the respect that she deserves, even if you disagree with her decision.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  16. #76
    Vergel, sorry troll, no flame war from me today, gl stirring one up though

  17. #77

  18. #78
    Originally posted by Jynne
    I am behind Dovve entirely, and I would be regardless of what path she chose to take. I have known her for a long time, and I consider her one of the wisest, and kindest, people on Rubi-Ka. This was not an attempt to leave people out, act elitist, or suppress knowledge, it was a question asked in good faith by a responsible person who wished to make a good decision.

    Please show her the respect that she deserves, even if you disagree with her decision.
    super dual bump! one for Jhynne and one for Dovve and all things kuporific everywhere.

  19. #79
    Jynne, please reread my posts thoughtfully instead of skimming them and looking for catch words to react unfairly to. Am getting a bit peeved that you and others REFUSE to discuss the issues involved directly and instead are either trying to circumvent the issue or trying to paint me as some sort of hotheaded ingrate.

    In this whole thread there are two valid arguments against including camps on the map. 1) The people who expend the effort to find and camp a spawn should get more advantage in the game than those who merely use a map to find the spawns, so including the spawns on the map has a chance of creating inequity. 2) Inclusion of spawns on the map could create bad feeling towards Dovve. The rest of the reasons posted are either self serving window dressing for 1) or just not well thought out.

    The best argument for including the spawns is that it makes the map much more useful for the entire player community. For example, many of the new bosses are summoning bosses; many aggro easily. Most people are not hardcore enough to "camp" anything... me, I lose patience with Neleb... but they would like to be able to go and see these things or avoid them, at their option without spending WHAT FOR MANY ARE PRECIOUS GAMING HOURS running or flying randomly through vast areas of space. IMO, especially if this game is to be viable in the face of upcoming competition, there is also a valid selfish motive in wanting newcomers to the game to find a more enjoyable experience. If I spend the time building characters in RK, I want to make sure there are enough newcomers staying around to insure the financial health of FC

    And yes, if you vote no, you ARE voting to suppress knowledge. And no amount of ad hominem flaming of me, or ass-kissing of Dovve, or dancing around the issue is going to change that. If that's how you feel, deal with it. I'm not equating you to a book-burner or some sort of thought police, but this exact same issue has arisen in history time and time again, it's just that the cartographical examples concerned the church and the middle ages. This is an ageless issue in RL.

  20. #80
    Attention Suzsu:

    The horse is dead.

    Why are you still beating it?

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