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Thread: Petition To Keep Improved Precognition For Soldiers

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    snip
    oh dear.. were do I begin...

    First of all, if you've gone full offensive set up I don't get why you think you should have a high defense, any class that goes full offensive set ups going to damage their defense.

    Secondly when I stated them needing a boost to evades I meant in the way that at the start of the game IP was so tight that many classes, specially the combat classes of enforcers and soldiers often didn't have the spare ip to raise evade enough to prevent every hit they took being a crit, and with the lack of any other way to really raise IP buffs and tweaks where given.

    1900 evades is more then enough to prevent this from happening, sure you wont be evading hits but at that point your not really focusing on evades, why should you have that on top of what you got anyway?

    Next... only 1 of those classes really has multiple defenses and thats adventurers, sure theres heals and health taps and hots (and seriously... critical decrease is a major defense? really) but there far from enough to be considered usable, specially if you want to disregard your other tools.

    Soldiers have always had 1 defense, reflects basically THE most reliable defensive tool in the game...

    So clearly they don't also have ac buffs (which are heavily unappreciated and hopefully being revamped), heal perks (may not be that great, but then neither are most non healers heals), hot nano's that beat fixer short hots, heal delta on par with a fixer long hot and yes while every profession tends to have a heal delta very few get tools to enhance it to an amount such as soldiers.

    And while your ams is being weaken your base reflects that run all the time have been increased, and reflects are so much better than most defenses, a 45% reflect buff is like having 45% chance to evade but without the downside of it depending on the opponents attack rating and luck so you wont get any unlucky streaks or people with attack skill high enough to hit you for full damage enough times in a row to kill you.

    And while yes, it may still be possible to cap through them, only by the few major specials, most of which will cap through evades anyway so that won't help much.

    Your emergency hot doesn't "leave you with -100 reflect ac" it debuffs your reflects for 2 seconds 2 entire seconds, thats the length of 1 attack or 1 perk, at worst your going to get hit by a special now and then during it if you can't kill your enemy in the time it takes for everything to go down, which considering soldiers are still going to be one of the bigger damage dealers and will probably be able to hit evaders more after balance, should not be that difficult.

    So far you have not given a single actual reason why a soldier needs an evade buff other than you consider most your defenses useless, you had it before and your reliable defense is not reliable.

    And thats not considering all the big changes being made in the rest of the rebalance.

  2. #42
    kay, i'll number this in order of points to rebutle against as im too lazy to copy/paste the quotes over and over and single them out like I would normally do.

    1. You are totally right. Full offensive setups shouldn't have substantially high evades. However, even when fully offensive focus, 2.1k defense after AAD is extremely low. And the point is not so much that we SHOULD have super high evades in offensive equips, but that a decent amount (meaning breaking the 3k~ mark as that is what is necessary to be any kind of effective) should be attainable on your own. It takes me a AAD tower to break 3k dodge still, but that's fair enough I suppose. However the buff is completely needed.

    2. Reflects may be "reliable" but "reliable" and "effective" are two totally different things. Also, 45% static is a mere 2 % higher than our current reflects.. and everyone knows how fast we go splat without AMS running right now. I HIGHLY doubt that's going to change at ALL because of a 2% boost.

    3. Just because soldiers have always had "one" defense, doesn't mean we couldn't do well with a secondary, and somewhat effective defense. Right now we have none (if not in an evade setup), and post balance we have.. none..

    4. Critical Decrease does help with Aimed Shot, last i remember. (though I may be mistaken) And healing on MA's, via perks and nanos, shades have an absorb, can drain enemies AAO, fixers have HoT's, and lots of reliable CC on top of all that speed which makes them an effective hit-and-run profession (which is a defense. I wouldn't mind being practically un-rootable and un-snareable and extremely fast while being able to CC other players).

    5. Reflects are better than most defenses, when they are a high enough number to shorten the damage significantly to the point where TMS currently is. But even in TMS 10 (if i were to take the ofab back piece off, meaning 75% reflect AC only) you still go down fast enough that it hardly matters. The new cap of 80% is going to be rough.

    6. All the "big changes" aren't going to keep a single person from perking me to death and spamming their special attacks to roll soldiers in AMS downtime. You don't need more than 1 competent player and 15 seconds at maximum for any profession that can deal a fair bit of damage to kill a soldier without AMS up. Even professions with only 1 of the more powerful specials (sneak attack, aimed shot, full auto) will drop a soldier within that 15 second mark almost all of the time.

    Soldiers need something more. A moderate amount of evades should be a possible option if we chose to go that route. Or we need something else, or the static reflects needs to be boosted even higher and the AMS downtime needs to be adjusted. If not evades, something else.

    If you don't really like the idea of giving soldiers Improved Precognition for whatever RP reasons you keep throwing at me, then lets talk about boosting the static reflects to 50%+ and shortening the AMS downtime to 20 seconds. Then we MIGHT stand a chance 1 on 1. We are still going to plop as soon as a second person enters the equation.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  3. #43
    1. the thing is you dont need a high evade/aad defense AND a non aad based defense, with a 45% reflect it would only take you evading 3 out of every 10 hits and you'd have basically the same defense as having perma ams now.

    2. They are effective, they effect every bit of damage coming to you, no matter the source. This means that 45% of all damage doesn't happen to you, same as if you were evading 45% of all hits, but without all the work arounds and unlucky hits evades actually give.

    3. Completely missed all the other defenses listed... you really don't want to acknowledge them do you (some are underestimated, some are not SO good but still there and apparently being revamped)

    4. Critical decrease does not help with AS, even a non critical AS from many will deal nasty if not capped damage to someone whos only defense is evades, as it isn't mitigated at all by them, it ignores them completely and ok, MA's have heal nano and perks, so does soldier (may not be as good but still there and they go on top of other bits soldiers have), shades have a HP drain that basically equates to the HD soldiers get and can drain AAO if they can land it, fixers have hots, soldiers HD almost matches their top long hot, soldier short hot beats fixer short hots, fixers have unreliable (seriously, trying to land nano's with those defense checks against people with such resists and nr while being a dark blue skill user that would have to nerf offense AND defense to cast them just to have them break instantly...) which are getting hit with the nerf stick as is the fixers ability to keep himself clean of cc himself (far from unroot/snareable).

    5. Reflects are better than most defenses as they work even when low, 10% reflects going to be reducing 10% damage no matter what, evades that are low don't work at all and absorbs to small don't even protect a full shot before completely disappearing requiring recasting to get again, heals only work if they can heal a reasonable amount, can be cast and can be cast fast enough (soldiers can block heals and stop them healing more then a trickle) most of these defenses are highly temporary or can be completely nullified... reflects can't be, they can only be reduced.

    6. But it probably will, they may still be able to perk you and you may take a bit more damage but chances are their going to be easier for you to hit yourself, and with your own new tools and higher hp chances are you will be the longer lasting one in the fight, specially when you factor in your own defenses hurt them in an unblockable manner... theirs will get reduced against you if they have any damage giving defenses such as damage shields.

  4. #44
    1. Reflecting the damage and not being hit do not work the same. Maybe on paper it seems like it would, but I promise you it does not work out to be that simple.

    2. Again, the number is just too low for it to matter. Capping specials are largely unaffected by this due to how much damage they dish out, the only exceptions to this is when you are pushing 80%+ reflects which is when you can actually reduce the caps. Capping specials are also the primary source of damage for a lot of professions. Reflects do essentially nothing against these and most professions have enough perks and base weapon damage that even if theorectically 45% of all damage is negated, you can still pox a soldier who's health is generally low enough and evades generally low enough that those pathetic reflects are all we have to fall back on. Garbage.

    3. Other defenses? Like heal delta? come on. What a joke. And AC's? you can't be effing serious using that as an argument.

    4. You are pretty much completely wrong about all of this. The the critical decrease part im not sure about, as I have said, ive just heard it reduces critical multipliers on the AS. But the rest you are over-exaggerating and equally undermining many things to try and make your argument stronger. But posting false and misleading information doesn't help make your case more credible.

    5. Again, reflects are "reliable", not so much "effective" until you reach the upper tier of the spectrum OR combine it with something else. On it's own, it is trash.

    6. But it probably wont. Outside of a few professions who swap full auto/as/sneak attack right now, damage is not being lowered what-so-ever from what I have seen so far. Some perks have been adjusted, but they also plan to make regulars more effective. Any damage lost in specials/perks is going to be made up in higher and more effective consistent regular damage.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  5. #45
    1. your right they don't work the same, reflects tends to be better, as every hit will be reduced 45%, which means big hits and small hits all get the same treatment, evades you could possibly evade every little hit but only get hit with the big hits that kill you.

    2. Unless Im missing something, there are 3 attacks that can possibly cap through reflects, all of which have a fairly long recharge compared to the rest, if you can get your hp to around 30k 2 of those should technically stop being able to cap, depends how they change the mechanics and such.

    3. heal delta, at a score of around 250 (gettable, if not more so) you'll be only 25 hp a second less healing than the fixers top hot if their at their high end HP score, but your healing will be every 2 seconds rather than every 8. 1000 ac's is technically 100 less damage, not seen many people min my damage even on high min low max guns so more ac's are still effective just people ignore them, plus I believe kintaii said AC's where getting looked at in this balancing when I brought it up oh so many months ago.

    4. yes critical decrease stops AS crits being as bad, but it doesn't matter if it hasn't got anything else to cushion it, its still going to be hitting more or less full cap damage. And what parts am I wrong about? soldiers do get everything I stated, ma heals are getting boosted I grant you that, but I've not seen any changes to shade health drain (95 health per second although its actually only every 10 seconds, massive gap with no healing to get killed in), fixer short hots end up giving 109 health per second but only every 10 seconds, again a big gap, compared to a soldiers 18% hp in the same time from the hot (at 30k hp thats 540 health per second and heals every 3 seconds not 10) even if you half it its still double the short hot. And fixers CC is still going to be unreliable, more so now that its duration its enough for a current free movement to instantly remove it (still not a clue how their going to change those to make them not ridiculous) and they are losing a lot of their CC protection they currently have.

    So what exactly is incorrect?

    5. fine then, you can have the uber evades that can be bypassed by almost every profession in one way or another, I will take the reliable defense against every incoming hit regardless of source.

    6. those that swap for specials will be reduced, others have already had their potential AR and AAD reduced, many have lost some of there bigger defensive and CC tools, perk combat system is being revamped to make them land more, AAD/evades are getting reworked (aka regular hits land more often) and AC's are apparently getting redone. All this seems to actually be in favour of soldiers, specially ones not relying on evades, they'll get CC less effectively, they'll land perks more often, their regulars will land more often (you will of course still be reducing regular damage against you reliably the same) and your higher AC's will be more effective...
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 14th, 2010 at 11:18:31.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    And I'm quite sure they're unperkable to you. However you'll find that if you switch to non-gimp setup that will change.
    True! Also consider that CiB has a 10 min lockout! And also consider the long execution time. Unless it's a duel it's not a reasonable defense against it
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
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  7. #47
    I support a viable defensive setup option for soldiers if it comes at a cost of reduced offense. This is how it should be for all professions, but sadly atm it isn't for some (adv and nt comes to mind).


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    I support a viable defensive setup option for soldiers if it comes at a cost of reduced offense. This is how it should be for all professions, but sadly atm it isn't for some (adv and nt comes to mind).
    Actually, this makes perfect sense. So I'll /signed.
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  9. #49
    /signed

    I still don't think evade setup on a solja is all that good*, but this game lives and dies by the huge amount of choices and possibilities when making our toons. Please don't take it away from us.

    Random notions about the posts in the thread:

    1. Soldiers have the second worst supported self HD in the game, if you count agents using the doc HD buff... and they're always in doc anyway. If you don't believe me, gear each prof up with a full set of alpha symbiants (choosing symb with HD for each spot for those who can use several symb choices), buff up and see their HD tick. NTs are the worst. Using custom implants for HD? Sure. Does that also mean that doctors are supposed to be the top AS profession cause they can use 3 AS implants? =P

    2. "Low" reflects are not that useful in PvP cause of the capping attacks. This is especially highlighted on lower TLs, where soldier get capped hits from AS/FA/SA with the new reflect calculation formula under TMS cause of their relatively low HP and reflect amount.

    3. Comparing soldier HD against other profession's healing from their HoTs/heals/perks/whatever is silly, cause there's no profession at 220 who doesn't have 2s HD tick. It's like claiming that engineers are hands-down best profession that can use martial arts cause they have the biggest MA buff, not counting anything else like perks, IP, research and armor choices.

    4. Crit decrease helps against AS from crit-happy weapons, like Craphander. It have little effect against weapons with decent damage range.



    *There have been evade soldiers before and after Marine. 3k dodge is good against gimps and greens, but what ranged profession (at endgame) has both less than 3k AR, 100% perks and weapon + perks as their only source of damage?
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  10. #50
    So soldiers complain about a defense that's always up or down with a long cooldown/vulnerability. Funcom listens and gives you an AMS with shorter duration but shorter cooldown as well, the ability to cast nanos during AMS (which is HUGE), and more passive healing than soldiers deserve anyway. So what now you want a defense that's always up? And who cares about 'supported' setups. A Soldiers HD is more effective than most professions with your toolset, admit it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitesfear
    *There have been evade soldiers before and after Marine. 3k dodge is good against gimps and greens, but what ranged profession (at endgame) has both less than 3k AR, 100% perks and weapon + perks as their only source of damage?
    Of course the answer is none Which is why soldier evade setup is similar to agent evade setup... only good vs gimps. And no you won't evade many normal attacks by any competent players either. Then again clearly those are the ones Marine struggles with most if his posts reflect at all on his ability to play, or lackthereof.

  11. #51
    I think the discussion about I-Precognition is moot. The nano itself doesn't make much sense, regarding our toolset. If I recall correctly, our tanky Enforcer-friends don't have an evade nano at all.
    Now building a setup that utilizes evades should by all means be possible. But the key should be the equipment (and maybe perks), not a nano everyone (that did the quest) just has.
    I don't see I-Precognition 'breaking the game' though, not now, not in the future. I just think we should discuss defensive setups in regard to, well, the setup.

    edit:
    the ability to cast nanos during AMS (which is HUGE)
    The array of nanos we actually cast in the fight is not huge, rather tiny. Taunts were always castable. And those that are castable in the fight are one-trick-ponies, because they all have a significant cooldown. They are, on top of that, pvp only. Also one could argue that being able to cast the Last Resort line during AMS is no new advantage since said line is new and was exactly created with this purpose in mind. Aside rebuffing (4h durations) it is a pvp thing. You can even argue that delaying AMS to cast the debuffs wouldn't be a big deal: fast casting, fast recharge, cooldown equals one try.
    It certainly has its advantages, flexibility to changing situations being one, but this does neither merit using bold text nor the word huge.
    Last edited by Ikarus; Nov 14th, 2010 at 20:28:48. Reason: double posting
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  12. #52
    /LoL'edzplxz
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    Quote Originally Posted by quitter187 View Post

  13. #53
    bump for an important issue. also, ignore the trolls like i am.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  14. #54
    I'm curious for a genuine response here. I know this may sound like famebait to some, but i am being honest and not trolling.


    I'm trying to understand how soldiers with 3k+ evades (thus, enough evades to be seriously meaningful in combat and not just enough to avoid constant crits) is 'fair' and 'balanced'. I ask this because soldiers already have many strengths on their side in combat. I certainly can understand the point that soldiers should be strong in combat because they do nothing but combat (no CC, no TS, no calms, no nukes, etc etc), but to me there is a line between strong and unbalance.

    Current Strenghts:
    -AR. One of the few classes that can reliably hit fixers/MAs/advys even with their evades perks up (please don't deny this, i have a top notch fixer and advy and end-game soldiers with top notch equipment certainly do land hits on me enough to be considered dangerous).

    -HealDelta. For how many other professions is it truly viable to sit down during combat to heal? granted, many evaders try doing this but imo only for soldier is the HD tick good enough (again, with top notch equipment because why talk about gimps ) for this to be a serious defensive tactic in combination with...

    -Reflects. Without a doubt soldiers have the most reflect in game, as they should. This is likely the best form of damage mitigation in game, because they damage never gets to you and it does not require nano-spamming (like layers/heals).

    -HP. Soldiers have high hp and are getting buffs for more HP. With their high reflects and HD, not only do they have high HP but the means to protect and refill it when played by an experienced player (ie, waiting a bit on AMS... letting HD do some work to refill... omhh/perks... etc)

    So, in my opinion the above make soldiers one of the most dangerous in pvp to many other classes. Certainly soldiers have their weak-points (NT's and engi's come to mind), but all classes should be weak against some. If you class isn't weak against anyone, you're overpowered .

    To me, adding 3k+ evades into the picture gets us into the realm of being a bit overpowered as not only would the class have top-notch damage mitigation from their core class abilities, but would be able to basically ignore many players due to the combination of the two.


    As i said when i started this thread, i would love to hear some real reasons (and not just bickering or whining to be more powerful) why the soldier class deserves evades. Not all classes should have all 'abilities' and this seems like an obvious one to me... like doctors not having high AR and fixers not getting high reflects.


    ps- forgive the grammar/spelling, it's very early AM and i'm too lazy to correct it. I think my meaning is clear
    Proud Member of Paradise

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonghigs View Post
    Current Strenghts:
    -AR. One of the few classes that can reliably hit fixers/MAs/advys even with their evades perks up (please don't deny this, i have a top notch fixer and advy and end-game soldiers with top notch equipment certainly do land hits on me enough to be considered dangerous).
    Care to define the word 'reliably'? 1 shot landing out of 10 is not 'reliably' to me.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ocene View Post
    Care to define the word 'reliably'? 1 shot landing out of 10 is not 'reliably' to me.
    Seriously, nerf evades on everyone. They are so OP'd. Especially on soldiers.

    Is that what you are trying to say?
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    So soldiers complain about a defense that's always up or down with a long cooldown/vulnerability. Funcom listens and gives you an AMS with shorter duration but shorter cooldown as well,
    I'm sorry but that's not true. The downperiod is 40 secs just like before. At 215+ that is. It is much longer at lower levels. And the duration is ofcourse nerfed to halt.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonghigs View Post
    I'm curious for a genuine response here. I know this may sound like famebait to some, but i am being honest and not trolling.


    I'm trying to understand how soldiers with 3k+ evades (thus, enough evades to be seriously meaningful in combat and not just enough to avoid constant crits) is 'fair' and 'balanced'. I ask this because soldiers already have many strengths on their side in combat. I certainly can understand the point that soldiers should be strong in combat because they do nothing but combat (no CC, no TS, no calms, no nukes, etc etc), but to me there is a line between strong and unbalance.

    Current Strenghts:
    -AR. One of the few classes that can reliably hit fixers/MAs/advys even with their evades perks up (please don't deny this, i have a top notch fixer and advy and end-game soldiers with top notch equipment certainly do land hits on me enough to be considered dangerous).

    -HealDelta. For how many other professions is it truly viable to sit down during combat to heal? granted, many evaders try doing this but imo only for soldier is the HD tick good enough (again, with top notch equipment because why talk about gimps ) for this to be a serious defensive tactic in combination with...

    -Reflects. Without a doubt soldiers have the most reflect in game, as they should. This is likely the best form of damage mitigation in game, because they damage never gets to you and it does not require nano-spamming (like layers/heals).

    -HP. Soldiers have high hp and are getting buffs for more HP. With their high reflects and HD, not only do they have high HP but the means to protect and refill it when played by an experienced player (ie, waiting a bit on AMS... letting HD do some work to refill... omhh/perks... etc)

    So, in my opinion the above make soldiers one of the most dangerous in pvp to many other classes. Certainly soldiers have their weak-points (NT's and engi's come to mind), but all classes should be weak against some. If you class isn't weak against anyone, you're overpowered .

    To me, adding 3k+ evades into the picture gets us into the realm of being a bit overpowered as not only would the class have top-notch damage mitigation from their core class abilities, but would be able to basically ignore many players due to the combination of the two.


    As i said when i started this thread, i would love to hear some real reasons (and not just bickering or whining to be more powerful) why the soldier class deserves evades. Not all classes should have all 'abilities' and this seems like an obvious one to me... like doctors not having high AR and fixers not getting high reflects.


    ps- forgive the grammar/spelling, it's very early AM and i'm too lazy to correct it. I think my meaning is clear
    I'll do my best to address all of the points.

    AR - We give up a very hefty amount of attack rating to run around in full defense. Both special AR and static weapon AR. It shows on evade classes too.

    HD - We give up pretty much ALL of our heal delta, because in order to be an effective defense setup, you need to wear a custom left arm implant (no HD possible here) and a artillery foot symbiant (no HD possible here.).

    Reflects - we give up some static reflects in order to go full def setup (see notucomm in place of ofab back piece) and outside of that as has already been addressed, static reflects in the range that soldiers have access to now are pathetic and hardly do anything at all to keep us from being smacked around like a rag doll as soon as AMS drops.

    Nobody is debating, that at least in a one-on-one environment, AMS is indeed very powerful. It's the before and after reflect status that is garbage and really, really, does nothing at all for our survival (why do you think I even WENT for a def setup?).

    HP - HP here is tricky. We have a fair amount, averaging 19k in low hp setups (full cc/css etc) to 25k in a full HP setup (lower AR, lower full auto skill, etc). All of these HP values are decent while under AMS. Outside of AMS, more HP is still a good thing most of the time. Just be aware we give up a fair amount when we go for a defense based equip. I ran around with about 19.5k~ most of the time as an atrox.




    For your closing point, yes, ADDING evades free of charge would not be right. But we give up (to some degree or another) ALL of the above stats in some way in order to make defense setups work. And I can give you the numbers, should you like to see them.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    *snip for brevity, the points are fair*


    For your closing point, yes, ADDING evades free of charge would not be right. But we give up (to some degree or another) ALL of the above stats in some way in order to make defense setups work. And I can give you the numbers, should you like to see them.
    I see what you're saying. In a way, i think we almost entirely agree My thought is that if evades are clearly not your profession's "intent" (as i think you can admit, given the extreme sacrifices made for a defensive setup compared to the sacrifices for AR or HP type setups), then your profession should not get a buff for it.
    Proud Member of Paradise

  20. #60

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