Petition To Keep Improved Precognition For Soldiers

[Ocene]

Marine's soldier can't perk people with MR and dies in less than 1 AS recharge to Engis. Now it all makes sense... "evade" Soldier. Hahahaha! Rk2 is always great for a laugh.

Agents also have a defensive setup.. which is probably more laughable than Marine's setup.

I haven't seen Marine lose many duels with his setup.

[Blackcradle]

Agents also have a defensive setup.. which is probably more laughable than Marine's setup.

I agree completely. You're talking to one of the biggest 'evade-agent' critics there is.

[Boltgun]

Evades are bad pvp (imo, don't start a flame war), but pvm it differencies bad from good solds.

So sign me up, even if I feel it won't modify soldiers that much.

[-LL-]

/LOL'd

[Werevixen]

They better not touch Improved Quantum Uncertainty.

[Xenotric]

Your not an evade class, this doesn't mean you can't have evades, you certainly can equip and IP them, but it doesn't make sense for you to have a dedicated nano for them.

Just like it would make no sense for fixers that are all about evading hits to get acs/reflects nano's or any any other sort of defense buffs that are designed to mitigate recieved damage, as thats not what there about.

Thats not to say fixers can't ip/equip with the aim of getting such things in the same ways as soldiers with evades, but it does mean they should rely on those professions that ARE focused on those defenses for the buffs.

So sure, go evade soldier if you wish, but don't expect your professions nano set to get a random buff that doesn't fit in general to go with it, go find those that do have evade nano's to give if you want higher than usual evades.

[JustinSane4]

Not a soldier, but /signed.

Seriously, who is going to have an improved game experience because this is gone? What can it possibly hurt to leave open the option of a non cookie-cutter Soldier build? AO is about options. Pointlessly closing options (presumably for shaky RP reasons) is a bad road to go down.

And an RP defense: Throughout human history there have been soldiers who have focused more on defensive training and equipment alongside those with offensive focuses. The Greek Hoplites countered the dominant to that point bow centric military paradigm of the Persians (who also used a lot of cavalry, also an offensive stance), Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptians (notable for their use of chariot archers, a heavily offensive military platform) by the use of the phalanax and superior shield and armor design. Not getting hit is very much a part of a Soldier's core competency - they last longer that way. No reason that idea shouldn't survive on RK.

[Xenotric]

Not a soldier, but /signed.

Seriously, who is going to have an improved game experience because this is gone? What can it possibly hurt to leave open the option of a non cookie-cutter Soldier build? AO is about options. Pointlessly closing options (presumably for shaky RP reasons) is a bad road to go down.

And an RP defense: Throughout human history there have been soldiers who have focused more on defensive training and equipment alongside those with offensive focuses. The Greek Hoplites countered the dominant to that point bow centric military paradigm of the Persians (who also used a lot of cavalry, also an offensive stance), Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptians (notable for their use of chariot archers, a heavily offensive military platform) by the use of the phalanax and superior shield and armor design. Not getting hit is very much a part of a Soldier's core competency - they last longer that way. No reason that idea shouldn't survive on RK.

I would point out that soldiers have carried this tradition, they have superior shield and armour design.

Superior shielding, better armour and phalanx formations are not evasion but absorption and mitigation, which the soldier does well, he can soak up damage by decreasing it more than anyone else in game and boosting the amount of punishment he can take before it becomes dangerous.

If anything your post just emphasizes why evasion is outside what soldiers are about.

As I said in my last post, I don't think soldiers should not have any evades, but their profession tools should not cater for it.

Professions are templates to work with, they have a set of tools specific to them that they are better at, this doesn't mean you can't do other things but you shouldn't expect to get more tools for dealing with things you generally wouldn't be dealing with, instead you'd need to get others who's professions do focus on such things to help you out.

Otherwise every profession would have to have every nano in the game to allow for everyone to do what ever build they want by themselves.

[lainbr]

20k HP, 3.2K AR and 15s FA is a huge lose? Check bow MPs (14kHP 2.2k AR and 20s AS)

/Lol'd

[Marinegent]

Marine's soldier can't perk people with MR and dies in less than 1 AS recharge to Engis. Now it all makes sense... "evade" Soldier. Hahahaha! Rk2 is always great for a laugh.

More trolling eh?

As it has been stated in OTHER threads.. Fixers, crats, and shade/ma with CIB running are unperkable. Don't skew what i've posted, because it makes you look like a tool.

20k HP, 3.2K AR and 15s FA is a huge lose? Check bow MPs (14kHP 2.2k AR and 20s AS)

/Lol'd

Bow MP's have needed some improvements for awhile. Using a broken profession for an example doesn't really prove anything.

Not a soldier, but /signed.

Seriously, who is going to have an improved game experience because this is gone? What can it possibly hurt to leave open the option of a non cookie-cutter Soldier build? AO is about options. Pointlessly closing options (presumably for shaky RP reasons) is a bad road to go down.

And an RP defense: Throughout human history there have been soldiers who have focused more on defensive training and equipment alongside those with offensive focuses. The Greek Hoplites countered the dominant to that point bow centric military paradigm of the Persians (who also used a lot of cavalry, also an offensive stance), Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptians (notable for their use of chariot archers, a heavily offensive military platform) by the use of the phalanax and superior shield and armor design. Not getting hit is very much a part of a Soldier's core competency - they last longer that way. No reason that idea shouldn't survive on RK.

Again, one of my main points has been said here. AO is about options. You have to make many full on sacrifices to make this setup work, and it does work with pretty decent results. Sure, we may be a Combat profession, but just like there are many choices of weapons and tactics, there should be as many (well maybe not AS many, but some) choices of target skills via equipment.

I am not asking for a boost of any sort, just to maintain what we have now. In a full offensive equip, you can hardly notice that we have a dedicated evade buff. Only in a full defensive equip, which again takes many sacrifices, does it even show that we have one. And even then, we are still not Over poweredly defensive. We barely break the 3k dodge mark using almost EVERYTHING available (within reason). And our CLSC is much lower than that.

Not only is improve precog removed, all evade nanos have been removed. They don't fit in with the overall design of the soldier and what the dev team feels they should be. However, nothing is set in stone at this stage, so if you have a well-thought argument as to why they should stay, post it here and I'll pass the message along.

High HP and heal delta seems to be the focus now. While you can make a huge sacrifice to create an evade soldier, it's not really what the soldier concept was intended to be - I'm not sure why we had the evade buffs we did had in the first place. Losing them is a blow to everyone, not only fully geared def soldiers, as they helped to mitigate critical hits.

At the end of the rebalance, though, given the changes to perks and items and nano costs, virtually every soldier is going to need a full IPR to be effective so we can fully use the new options open to us. It's not as if only the few soldiers in a full def setup are going to have to rework their equipment and IP - we all will.

I'm fine if we need to re-work a little. I've already accepted the fact my weapon choices will probably change in order to remain viable and I will have to kill myself getting 1276 sense on a trox soldier again

But even with a "focus" for a profession, such as Soldiers general "focus" is AAO/big guns/burst/fa/reflects.. allowing some variations is what makes AO great and adds depth/replay value to the game. Forcing everyone to run around cookie-cutter style is not only boring but takes away an unnecessary option for soldiers that is not overpowered in any form, and merely a choice.

[Bonghigs]

*snip*

High HP and heal delta seems to be the focus now. While you can make a huge sacrifice to create an evade soldier, it's not really what the soldier concept was intended to be - I'm not sure why we had the evade buffs we did had in the first place.

*snip*

This. I am all for avoiding one-size-fits-all professions (the variability of builds is the biggest selling point of this game imo), but some things just don't fit some professions.

[Berinda]

But even with a "focus" for a profession, such as Soldiers general "focus" is AAO/big guns/burst/fa/reflects.. allowing some variations is what makes AO great and adds depth/replay value to the game. Forcing everyone to run around cookie-cutter style is not only boring but takes away an unnecessary option for soldiers that is not overpowered in any form, and merely a choice.

In the future, I hope we'll be focused on "guns" in general, but that's a debate for when itemization happens - but the reworked weapon buffs give me hope that'll be the case.

As for variation, it looks like most of our variation is going to come from perks. With the new perk line added, and the fact not everyone will need CoNC to cast top nanos, we'll be free to experiment with a lot of different perk and weapon combinations, and those will be meaningful choices. And we have yet to see what is going into HUDs and armor.

We're losing an old choice that was only given to us because of one APF nano. We're gaining multiple new choices that are more viable.

[Marinegent]

We're losing an old choice that was only given to us because of one APF nano. We're gaining multiple new choices that are more viable.

"More" or "Less" viable can be debated, and it's probably best to stray from labeling things nobody has tested as "more viable" than the current ones we have tested..

It's one nano that doesn't have any real reason to be removed. It seems nobody has a clear answer, instead its a "Just cause".

I should still be allowed to choose which type of a soldier I want to be. There's no real reason to remove the nano, so why do it?

Leave it in-game for the sake of choice. Maybe i'd like to be an evade geared soldier with all the new proposed defense mechanics. Maybe I like outlasting people as best as possible rather than being a full on offensive one-chance-only powerhouse. AMS + evades has done decently for me so far, i'd like to continue using the setup. I've seen what HD setups do for soldiers, and it's pretty pathetic when you aren't under AMS.

[Xenotric]

From what I've seen it seems profession toolsets are becoming more defined as to what they can give.

Random buffs that seem out of place are being removed and gaps that have been present are being filled.

What this means is that as I've posted previously, while your personal tools are being removed others are being added to others.

You can be an evade soldier, nothing is stopping you, but like any other class that is trying to take advantage of stats their profession isn't dedicated to, your going to need others help.

There is reason to remove Iprecog, it doesn't fit with the soldiers toolset and nor does it seem fair that while it doesn't fit their other tools its better than some professions who are dedicated to that.

So your not being forced to go away from being evade soldier, but you are having to use other people to maximize your build as it is not focused on what your profession caters too.

Just like any other class.

So to maximize your evades your going to have to look up fixers or other evaders for their evade buff, just like they'll have to look up soldier or engi's for reflects/gun buffs, Soldier or enforcers and docs for health and stamina buffs, nt's, mps or traders for nanoskill/nanocost/nanoregen buffs etc etc.

I don't think its unreasonable for soldiers to have to work with other people to get non standard builds the same as everyone else, specially considering soldiers are one of the classes with the most variability possible that's actually supported by their own tools.

[Gunfytr]

High HP and heal delta seems to be the focus now.

Does this mean we are getting more HD on Arty symbs?

[Berinda]

Items won't be worked over until all the profession's nanos are worked over, so I have no inkling of that.

[Xenotric]

also scratch what I said about looking up fixers, they wont be able to give out much evades at all, another thing funcom decided they shouldn't do (just the 79 that would have come with GSF).

MA's would be your primary go to guy at the moment, giving out a nice big 150 evades buff.

[Marinegent]

There is reason to remove Iprecog, it doesn't fit with the soldiers toolset and nor does it seem fair that while it doesn't fit their other tools its better than some professions who are dedicated to that.

We have evades support on our Special Forces perk line (profession SL perk line). We have also had Precognition since the game came out.

I'd also hardly consider I-Precognition to be a substitute or, as you put it, "A better tool" than those professions with DoF/Limber, careful in battle, etc.

Even if our single-evade buff is higher than a few other professions, the fact that we have had some evade support via perk lines AND nanos means that the option was clearly intended to be there. We still don't compare to true evade professions, but there is no reason that we shouldn't have the option to be a mid-evade profession with all the sacrifices we make in order to do so.

[Xenotric]

Unfortunately having something from launch and having slight support for it in perks does not guarantee anything.

Specially not as there are many random small buffs that classes have had since launch, does that mean their class is a focus on that? or that they should continue to have such things? Specially when things like defenses are concerned?

At the start of the game stats were a lot lower and much more important, that 55 boost to your evades may have been put there because funcom saw that at that point in the game development soldiers where struggling to get the evades up while keeping everything else maxed, and placed that buff there to give a bit of a boost to prevent stuff like 100% crit rate on them.

These days stats are much higher and easier to manipulate, unfortunately for a long time funcom's tended towards looking to see whats already been given and then giving something that multiplies it ridiculously (this is what I credit advy's getting access to both acrobat <oh look multi weapon skill, advies use that!> and biococoon <probably the big defense they were meant to focused on>)

And after the rebalance perhaps soldiers being able to self buff their evades, their hp, their ac's, and their reflects would be too much in the new balance system.

Also when I talked about Iprecog being almost as good/better then some profs tools, I was talking about nanos only, the nano programs available to the profession are one of the main templates as to how that profession should work, 110 evades is better than all but the top 3 fixer evade buffs from their run buffs, and isn't that much less then there top one, and they are considered an evade class. They don't have access to all the other stuff soldiers have, so why does it make sense that soldiers should have this on top of everything else considering todays stats?

When it comes down to it, if you want to be a mid evader, you can make that sacrifice and you can still be it, you just may have to seek out a friendly MA to top up your evades.

Just like an MA could become a high HP tank like person with sacrifices would need to look up a soldier for reflects and hp/ac buffs.

Neither will be optimal specially by themselves, but both will be functional with support from others.

So just to reiterate my stance on this:

If your sacrificing to get skills to a functional level and non of your profession tools really cater to that skill (and by cater to I mean a proper line of nano's that clearly designed to keep you boosted in that skill through out your leveling career, not 1 or 2 nanos that are miles apart) then your professions probably not focused on that, as such it makes little sense for them to have tools for it. But that shouldn't mean you should be completely unable to use that skill, but it should mean you'd need support from those that are trained to use that skill to take full advantage.

If I were to make a completely illogical and silly reference to real life, it would be like a carpenter wanting to some electronics work, him being a carpenter the tools he would have himself would be carpentry tools, for him to do some electronics work he'd have to go find an electronics engineer to lend him the tools and knowledge to do what he wants, and it would be no were on par to what the electronics engineer could do. (yes in this example humans are locked to a specific set of knowledge, stores no longer sell functional tools to anyone outside those professions and wikipedia doesn't exist)

[Marinegent]

Well, lets consider a side of your argument.

You mention funcom perhaps placing the buff in the game, due to a profession lacking heavily in one area.

Take the standard soldier equip. Full Offensive gear, left arm symbiant (means no AAD) leg and feet implants (reduced dodge/clsc on leg compared to symb, and no dodge at all on the foot and reduced CLSC). Combined Commando's armor. Albatrum huds, Offense hud 3, nano deck, and dreadloch stabalising aid.

The basic NCU's, maybe a leo NCU for some RE/assault rifle/smg/whatever. Most soldiers do use defense board for more HD. Ofab pads for assault rifle soldiers, IGoC's (optimally) for SMG soldiers. Etc.

The standard soldier equip leaves you with (i believe it was) 1750~ evades, and a laughable 250~ add all defense if I recall correctly. (I remember the number being no higher than 2.1k dodge, give or take a few points) So, 2.1k dodge WITH improved precognition. Meaning under 2k dodge without it, and under 1900 CLSC without it..

Is that not pretty lacking in and of itself? I would say those pathetic numbers alone are enough to justify having an evade boost. Being perkable by TL5 twinks as an end-game offensive soldier is pretty pathetic.

Even if we were generous, and used say, CSS in place of CC, thats barely pushing 2.2k dodge with Improved Precognition. Still barely anything worth mentioning.

The need for the nano is there, even if we arent in a full evade setup. Just a general offensive/HD setup leaves us with the most laughable tl7 evades (sub a tl7 doctor perhaps?) there are.

I don't want to be a fixer, or an advy, a MA or a shade. Those other professions have multiple forms of defense, via Life taps, heals, extremely high evades, critical decrease, etc. Soldiers have always had just one form of defense, Reflects. No profession with only 1 form of defense ever really performs all that well. Agents being a prime example. CH is about as one-trick of a pony as AMS is. Granted, if you get off AMS - yes it is powerful during the 80 second duration, but that's being cut in half post-balance. Also heal delta is a very poor excuse for a "defense". It's not reliable or strong enough at all to be considered a defense. And it's hardly unique since every profession has a heal delta of some sort so I really don't want to hear the argument soldiers second defense is HD.

We have a few junky heal perks which amount to no more than a second or two worth of damage when AMS has run out (a couple regulars or a special will out-damage our crappy heals) and with the shorter AMS duration AND nerfed reflects, soldiers really do need a second form of defense like most other professions have.

And as has been stated in the soldier forums, this whole "payback time" nano that is proposed, the HoT that heals 60% then drains 30% of that and leaving us with -100 Reflect AC, is not going to be the "emergency" Heal people are being told to believe it will be. It will be the very next defense we use every single time after AMS has run out, because without AMS we drop like flies and this is no secret. Even to professions without huge capping specials, we go down quick.

Point being very simple...

Soldiers need another alternative defense. I and many others have realized this. I am fine with the reflect % and duration nerf of AMS, but to take away the last option we have as something to fall back on when AMS is out, and hopefully something to rely on a little before being forced into AMS is just NOT okay.

I-precognition needs to stay, or soldiers need something else besides "payback time". It's really that simple.