Petition To Keep Improved Precognition For Soldiers

[Vurtuoso]

*shrug* They have a pretty distinctive silhouette.

You must spend time around them to become distinctive, not everyone can pick out the differences between a gun just by looking at it. Still though, you should be proud, you have functional cognitive spacial skills, I thought .45 and nothing of it. You thought Makarov and nothing of it.

[Vurtuoso]

Let us be thankful this is not an advy thread.

Indeed. However it still applies.

[Ocene]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqD-Mmuz34k
Dodges Ak-47 & .45 GG Evades

I knew it, Rambo is a MP with Tigress on and a replica soldier social. Cause, you never see a soldier with a Bow doing Aimed Shots...

[Vurtuoso]

Thats the ironic thing, Soldiers should use everything in the game effectively. Lets not mince words here, in any real world scenario a soldier is on top, likely next to an Agent (previous soldier gone merc). Soldiers from inception are bred for combat, a trader? naw, engineer? nope, a combat engineer (soldier), a doctor naw, a field medic (soldier), Enforcer, nope a good soldier could crush a good bouncer's wind pipe. A fixer? Give me a break, someone who plays with computers all day, is silly. Advies,Shades,MP's,Nt's, and keepers are the odd balls who may have a chance of decent combat, depending what kind of dimension they come from.

[Xenotric]

When it comes down to gun usage I agree (heck I'd even go as far as saying many melee weapons would be in keeping with them as well, but that was given to enforcers)

But when it comes to other skills, I think not.

A soldier isn't going to be trained to be able to dodge bullets, they'd be trained in effective combat manoeuvres such as taking cover and flanking and all that jazz but not to jump out and start dancing as bullets fly past.

Add in AO's armour/reflect system and they'd probably be more trained as shock troopers to get dropped in and push forward as their armour prevents most attacks getting through, stopping behind cover to patch up and such.

Also combat engineers and field medics are engineers and medics, that they also get military training doesn't make them just any old soldier with a different hat!

Also it depends on the soldier and bouncer, military training may allow soldiers to best many people but what if the bouncers been training all his life in what he does? The soldiers training wont make up for that, just like in hand to hand fight a soldiers not going to beat martial artists that have trained there whole lifes.

[Vurtuoso]

When it comes down to gun usage I agree (heck I'd even go as far as saying many melee weapons would be in keeping with them as well, but that was given to enforcers)

But when it comes to other skills, I think not.

A soldier isn't going to be trained to be able to dodge bullets, they'd be trained in effective combat manoeuvres such as taking cover and flanking and all that jazz but not to jump out and start dancing as bullets fly past.

Add in AO's armour/reflect system and they'd probably be more trained as shock troopers to get dropped in and push forward as their armour prevents most attacks getting through, stopping behind cover to patch up and such.

Also combat engineers and field medics are engineers and medics, that they also get military training doesn't make them just any old soldier with a different hat!

Also it depends on the soldier and bouncer, military training may allow soldiers to best many people but what if the bouncers been training all his life in what he does? The soldiers training wont make up for that, just like in hand to hand fight a soldiers not going to beat martial artists that have trained there whole lifes.

Well the idea of ducking for cover, and fire in the hole, etc etc is an evade to me. I don't think it should act as efficient as other profs sure, but it should be there.
Another example S.E.R.E. Training where you learn to evade your foes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviva...nce_and_Escape

And indeed yes, I did not bring up MA, I forgot about that prof, and your correct about it.
Soldiers,Agents,Martial Artists are fighters at the top of their game, pure warriors.
Shades,Advies, MP's, Keepers, and Nt's are wild cards, they have no true defined archetype.
Traders,Engineers,Fixers, Crats, are absolutely not warriors, what is ironic is these professions manage to rack up the highest DD in the game, and tank the best. Far from Archetype roles.

[Xenotric]

but again thats not evasion as in matrix style dodging bullets or punches its more concealment.

Evading sight, moving without being spotted and keeping things between you and the hostiles.

And I could talk at lengths about how professions roles should come into balance in game but I wont.

All I will say is the more diverse a professions tools are the weaker it all has to be to prevent the whole being overly powerful.

This is something direly missing in many professions currently, for example adventurers and crats.

Advy's have access to almost every defence in game at a level that rivals professions who focus on just that one defence, onto that they also have reasonable weapon diversity and support that leaves them in the upper levels of the damage. Add it all together and you get a profession that is over all more powerful then most.

Crats suffer this as well, they get great damage from upto 3 pets and their own weapon support, which also grants them great defence from pet tanking, add onto that the best CC in game including init debuffs, and a solid personal defence that at times beats the professions that ONLY have that defence and you get something approaching over powered. Not as bad as adventurers because outside of pvm a lot of it can be countered/ignored but in pvm they go so far as beating adventurers in situations.

The more you get, the weaker everything has to be and not linear either each extra tool has to reduce all other tools by a greater amount.

This is why some classes such as soldiers which are a combat themed class can get out damage by a fixer who isn't purely combat (I wouldn't say they are not combat orientated though, they are the thugs and criminals of AO, the ones that will mug you at knife point and spray you with bullets as they escape from stealing your stuff!) because the diversity of soldiers tool set makes up them over all more potent than fixers.

[Anarchic1]

this is more crap. Top sols will od top fixers. Sols in envy/rhata that is. They cap FA recharge, fixers don't

[Xenotric]

Fixers can get close to the fa recharge cap might even just be possible if your sacraficing more defense, add into that hit and run and such fixers get a slight edge in perks.

Granted this is only if a fixer sacrifices a fair bit of defence for the offence, something the soldier doesn't have to do.

[Anarchic1]

220 fixers with 300 eoe, full alphas get circa 17 sec FA recharge, full 300 css and etc the works. Plus fixers have only access to 6 hit and run perks. so you are misinformed

[Xenotric]

which is all the hit and run perks available... it being a fixer only perk line... but all the attacks it gives are pure damage.

You may be thinking of power up which is one soldiers get full and fixers only get half, but with the way those perks work they are very limited additional damage.

[Anarchic1]

I meanthose 6perk points,butit's like 3 perks i believe. Plus 3 perks every 1+ min or so isn't going to do better than a 6 sec FA difference...

[Xenotric]

actually only 2 actual actions and it may not directly make up for a 6 second longer FA difference but with all the other little bits it comes out closer to even then you'd think.

And Im just going by the damage dumps that come out of the pande raid I tend to go to, fixers tend to beat the soldiers, could be laziness could be set up not sure but they can and do. Assault rifle soldiers tend to be easier to beat but get a bit more variance in their perks (rather than just damage)

But when it comes down to it this doesn't actually equate to why soldiers should or should not get evade buffing, though it does kind of show that soldiers have quite diverse builds as it is.

[Anarchic1]

actually only 2 actual actions and it may not directly make up for a 6 second longer FA difference but with all the other little bits it comes out closer to even then you'd think.

And Im just going by the damage dumps that come out of the pande raid I tend to go to, fixers tend to beat the soldiers, could be laziness could be set up not sure but they can and do. Assault rifle soldiers tend to be easier to beat but get a bit more variance in their perks (rather than just damage)

But when it comes down to it this doesn't actually equate to why soldiers should or should not get evade buffing, though it does kind of show that soldiers have quite diverse builds as it is.

Well an assault rifle sol isn't a dder. An envy sol will beat a fixer no doubt about it.

[Marinegent]

fixer vs soldier PvM damage has nothing to do with this thread.

[Taranide]

So, if soldier - infantry one as the stereotype goes - "evading" mechanics from present combat style should be considered and option, it should be based more on concealment than defensive buffs.

Anyway, Precognition evade buffs can stay for all I care, doesn't make them soldiers overpowered. It's their choice to go for diverse setups if they so like, only that the defensive one won't be so significantly effective in most cases. Well played soldier is powerful with or without evades.

[Vurtuoso]

So, if soldier - infantry one as the stereotype goes - "evading" mechanics from present combat style should be considered and option, it should be based more on concealment than defensive buffs.

Anyway, Precognition evade buffs can stay for all I care, doesn't make them soldiers overpowered. It's their choice to go for diverse setups if they so like, only that the defensive one won't be so significantly effective in most cases. Well played soldier is powerful with or without evades.

I thought the evades fit their idea of combat training, that they are well prepared fighters that have some idea how go for cover and say not completely panic, it should not nearly have an impact like the shield does, cause its a great gimmick for its profession type. But Soldiers are not string beans, they are made for combat, so some evades apply. They are well versed in martial arts as well, however I am inclined to let this idea go, as it would make the tool set overpowered. I am willing to accept missile only style combat, heck take our weapon bash perk away, I think its silly.

You do bring up a point for concealment, however thats the problem. Concealment goes into the idea of a sniper, which is a quasi Agent. So theoretically Soldiers should get a small concealment buff "Camo" and evades "Precog".

[Taranide]

Some way reflects represent this "taking cover" theme, since you will be taking less damage.

[Vurtuoso]

Some way reflects represent this "taking cover" theme, since you will be taking less damage.

Reflects are a technology, not a skill. Using the same logic joe blow off the street could be a soldier.

[agentwolve]

soldiers are too nerfed in their current state, lets use this opportunity to give them a combat medic sense of play so they can cast complete heal.

they should also get access to biococoon and acrobat perklines, they need maybe a slightly better evade buff then now too, also AMS lockout is to long, make it 5 seconds and so they can still cast things.

then they can compare with the likes of mps in pvm and pvp, also where is docs and engi's evade buff.... EVERYBODY should have one, everybody should have the same perklines and nanos.