Friday with Means - November 12th, 2010 - Changes large and small

[Freor]

Yes, but then how long till you max out the market for OFAB gear... two days after the store goes live and the already existing hundreds of characters with VP in the million range fill up their playershops with all OFAB gear?

See Alternity's posts above... if it's not worth buying the VP, why do it at all seeing how many hate it? And if you do get enough for your money, it's also worth buying them to resell for creds.

XP stims, VPs, tokens, levels, buffs and past veteran items and whatever, are all available pretty much free of charge ingame already. I don't see how that leads to selling actual credits or phats. I really don't. But then, you can prove me wrong on that account the day they do start doing it. Till that day, I'll be the one who's right.

One problem with levels, VP, buffs etc is that they are effectively allowing people to pay... to not have to play! Plenty of talk about this already, but in short lately there's been much talk and plans to get more people, stop much of the content not being used. Offering a way for cash to now skip the very things that need people is quite counterproductive. Not to even mention how bad many players - myself included - feel about the thought of buying levels etc in the first place.

[Hulk]

One problem with levels, VP, buffs etc is that they are effectively allowing people to pay... to not have to play! Plenty of talk about this already, but in short lately there's been much talk and plans to get more people, stop much of the content not being used. Offering a way for cash to now skip the very things that need people is quite counterproductive. Not to even mention how bad many players - myself included - feel about the thought of buying levels etc in the first place.

At the risk of repeating myself... you can already pay to not have to play, the only difference is, now FC will get the money.

[Martialmad]

Sorry I didn't read all pages but IMO as soon as a MMO company starts selling ingame stuff, bad things happen.

Conflicts of interest appear. Like :
"why should we fix leveling and make it more fun ? It would nerf our levels pack sales !"
"why should we make alternative ways of getting tokens while we can earn $15 selling them ?"

It's a pain in some other MMOs I've been playing. For example devs keep the toons run speed very low on purpose so they can sell a $10 horse.

Actually I'm totally against the F2P + store way for this reason.

And of course as stated before it will be even harder to get people to team with.

[Cyberleet]

Instead of armor-replica:

How about:
'Special Edition Expendable Hologram Camera' It creates NODROP visual duplicates of your armor?

Maybe just temporary?

It fix your social mismatches by having a combination of armor/unique's...at least then you have had the item in your inventory, if that counts for something...altho, the feeling of acomplishment for having AI-armor is important.

With this item at least nodrop stuff like beast-armor, weapons and HI-specs must be obtained normally for the visual effect.

[Ilikethongs]

Hence, when he says we should do some advertisement because we currently have none and you pull some elitist rubbish out of your .... about how he does not really know about marketing, you do not have a point. ;D

Besides you do not really understand what I am saying. I did not say it does not have an effect I just said the effect although observable cannot be traced to certain efforts. Last peeps I talked to this about where from marketing department at P&G. They said the only thing they know is when they spend less they have less sales. Apart from that they cannot really tell what effort had what effect.

I forgive you though, since you are clearly no professional ;D

Actually, I've done marketing projects with P&G on their Sam's Club team. I also do plenty of marketing support for Wal-Mart and other big CPG companies as part of my Ph.D. studies. That is another reason why I left this game so I can concentrate on doing research on these things that you think you know so much about. So yes, I do know hell of a lot more than you do about marketing. Your "professionals" are simply afflicted with departmental myopia that they can't see the bigger picture from a macro level.

[Ilikethongs]

Henry Ford said something about marketing in early 1900:
Half the money spend in marketing is wasted, but no one can tell wich half of it.

just trolling

And back when Henry Ford was alive, there was no television and internet Marketing was still considered how to most efficiently move agricultural products from one place to the next.

[uristoph]

So only paid players with a 220 can opt to buy another character (to 150 or 199)?

I've skimmed through this thread seeing a lot of complaining, but if I'm not wrong there's still the faction/research grind no one talked about, it's still going to take a while to get some things done.

[JediMindTricks]

Actually, I've done marketing projects with P&G on their Sam's Club team. I also do plenty of marketing support for Wal-Mart and other big CPG companies as part of my Ph.D. studies. That is another reason why I left this game so I can concentrate on doing research on these things that you think you know so much about. So yes, I do know hell of a lot more than you do about marketing. Your "professionals" are simply afflicted with departmental myopia that they can't see the bigger picture from a macro level.

You should have said that you come from an academic and not a real life background.

My interest in marketing is peripheral at best. What I do know is that what I stated is based on information from people that have marketing responsibilities on an European level.

I actually doubt that you will be very successful in your Ph.D studies when you are not able to differentiate between what I actually said and what you think I meant. Needless to say none of your posts manages to address any of the points I made.

Feel free to pm me the names of some papers that you think prove me wrong.

[Ctrlaltwin]

Went through over 15 pages and still never saw the true explanation to why Funcom is doing this. It isn't too hard breaking on logic people, AO is hurting on money. Even Means is upset with this (I bet a year ago he would have said this is NEVER EVER going to happen), but I bet Funcom is breathing down his neck and demanding more revenue (especially with Re-balance/Engine).

Either way, not one post I saw really hit this? It's dead obvious. Going to hit the three major controversies (tokens being the least contested, thus far):

Tokens:

Token packs will be available from the shop in different amounts. This is an item that has been long requested by the community as it represents a very significant time investment to most players. The end-game boards themselves will not be available and will still need to be obtained in the normal fashion.

This opens the crazy of what other items of long time request might be next. Farming gear? Farming research? (Farming aliens were dumbed down with alien missions). I can't be totally against buying tokens as it only affects part of one item, but the "significant time investment" part really shows me Funcom too is ready to see the game be less of a grind.

Victory Points:

A great many people enjoy PvP, while at the same time a great many people do not. Points will be available in the shop for those who would rather avoid the experience altogether. At the same time Basic OFAB armor pieces (not upgraded) will become Yes-Drop so can be sold by players with large surplus amounts of VP.

I think they should have done this to begin with, or like people suggested allowed upgrading Quality level on Ofab. The reason this took so long is odd, but now that people have collected so many points it really leaves up some questions of how inflated the Ofab market might get. Really not all that puzzling when Funcom is desperate for money.

Level packs (Boost to 50, Boost to 100, Boost to 150, Boost to 199). These items will only be available to accounts that already have a 220 Character as an option for those who want to play another profession at end game but do not have the time or inclination to replay the lower level end of the game another time.

Most debated, and most heated. It is causing a huge ripple of dividing. It does make it harder for the newer players to find teams, it does create an easy system of passing levels, and it does create a semi-rough system to benefit some noobs who want instant gratifications.

On the other hand, as mentioned by so many others people who know how to grind with OST will always be able to level fast. Will always have superior methods to level multiple times faster, and leveling in this game is tough enough...now imagine leveling in current game state with no OST, no kite invites, no 220s to power level to 199. It seems rough enough, now giving 220s an options sounds viable.

In short - Funcom is going to lose customers, and hopefully gain money from the shop and hopefully snag some old players/new players after Re-balance/Engine. I support them.

My conclusion - This is a business, and although a lot of people are use to grinding everything, it is time to take a fresh look at the game. How long does it take Average joe to hit 220/30/70 in full end-game gear? Logic + player base would dictate at times never, or on average years. There will always be Ocene's out there (multiple maxed leveled characters)...but most people never get close due to the excessive grind. It seems Funcom is going in a less grind direction while trying to max profits.

Edit: If I am wrong about Funcoms cash flow through AO, then I am sure someone on the AO staff will gladly correct me.

[taconis]

One of the things I have learned over the years is that no matter how much you whine, you will never get your full way. I am at least very thankful that the game developers are at least listening to the whole community at large and not just a portion thereof. My takes on the upcoming changes:

1. Tokens - I look at this akin to the selling of bags of farmed token items. Instead of the player gaining the credits, FunCom will be making cash to sustain the services. Honestly, I like the old school grinding because it brings me back to where I started.... a froob, and makes me get back to good ol' Rubi-Ka.

2. Victory Points - Like many others have posted, I distain PvP. I'm not into it, nor have I had an inkling to learn all the ropes and spend the bazillion credits and farming to get to that point. I prefer PvM and helping others with a smidge of twinking enough to help defend my organization's tower sites. Nine times out of ten when I BattleStation grind, I am running around trying to take an outer point or defending the side switch from the campers. These two things make BS unenjoyable. I do agree with some of the posts others have made to increase the quantity of victory points earned during LE alien mothership missions. I am also not opposed to FunCom earning a little more cash to sustain the services on a game that I have played for the last seven years plus.

3. OFAB basic armor - I think this should be expanded a bit more and make the type clumps for ofab improvement also "yes drop." This will offset those that are losing credits from the tokens change, and I hope will create another credit making revenue stream for some that don't know all the ways to be a billionaire in 10 days or less.

4. Reset points - I truly love the idea of having another reset point added. I like the concept of making a reset point item such as the empty fgrid container. Whatever the end item is, I hope that it is nodrop and unique and can come from a variety of areas to prevent over-camping a particular mob.

5. Social item replicas - Woohoo! I'm glad that those that took a break will have the chance to get some of the social items that were released throughout the years. Toga party anyone?

6. Time limited expansions - I didn't read through the whole 24 pages of postings, but I do share the concern about the billing issue. Right now if you're froob, and you upgrade one you cannot go back. I think FunCom has to have a button on the character creation page that says "Do you want this toon to be paid for free?" This would give everyone a chance to have it both ways. If I have a 220 advie (which I do), and I then want to make it froob, I would not be able to. However, if I have a 74 engineer that I want to make froob I should be able to change it from paid to froob. After all, FunCom is still getting my money every year for the account. I just want to be able to play something if my account freezes due to lack of payment. It would allow us to continue to enjoy the game without losing everything if we didn't pay for a month or two.

7. Leveling packs - Having the requirement of owning a 220 toon first is a good idea. Having the ability to freely move 220's from 1 paid account to another is a good idea if it is at will. However, one of the biggest things I am finding is that people do not know how to play their characters or know enough about the other professions to adequately team. Experienced players already know how to power level toons, and those that wish to quickly level take advantage of groups of friends to make it happen. I believe that the leveling pack idea, should it stay in game, be limited to a one-time use only per character and be scaled to 25, 50, 75, 100, and 150 levels. I also believe that such items should be cash based or veteran point based and not credit based. This way, FunCom wins either way by collecting the needed revenue to sustain the servers.

8. Pre-packaged buffs - I like this idea but believe it should be tweaked just a bit. Use the fgrid capsule as an example, make them non-unique and "yes drop." This will allow us to fill nano containers and sell them for credits. After all, who wouldn't mind a little extra XP love from a crat and advie when they're not around? I also agree that they should not be usable in BS or other PvP arenas.

9. Old phasephont vendors - Before I die, I would greatly appreciate FunCom restoring the pristine view of Newland Lake. Please move the floatilla and neon lights to the southern shore of the lake.

[Stillian]

;D

I checked my inbox you must have accidentally sent the papers that support your point of view to someone else. Without playing Dr freud here too much, you sound like a sore loser. As you are apparently not able to address arguments without taking the issue personal. Makes me wonder about what real life experience you have ;D.

Also, trying to attack me personally by implying that I might be poor is just bad style. Read my posts and try to find the "points" I was talking about. As somebody that actually studied at an university (and not only pretends to have a Ph.D) you should be able to quickly find that by quoting my other sources I was merely underlining my point.

I would rate your posts and rebuttals at 2 out of 10

Freud did not examine sore losers, those were far too obvious for him. I realise Marketing is all Psychology, however you did not do Freud's psychosexual analysis and learn your marketing expertise on the same course. Stop trolling.

You started making the issue personal when you accused someone of, essentially, being an idiot - only to find that [as per the course with the AO community, varied and experienced as it is] you'd picked the wrong target.

You are also condemning personal attacks in your first paragraph and then firing off one in your second with your accusation about lying about a Ph.D.

I rate your contribution to this thread 0/10 and, since we've all been asked [me included] to talk less about each other and more about these changes, please go somewhere else and/or actuallly start talking about the issue at hand, and not about personal conflicts.

[Mavritanic]

"I'm only PvM" posts.
pfft...

[BigBubba]

I have to say the buy able levels thing is difficult to back. Game has become easier and easier to level as is. Near no challenge anymore. Its scary to think their might be a day where I'm talking to someone and commenting "remember when you had to play to level". I don't think that's the best idea. I like the higher xp on weekends idea though that way players who are weekend warriors but work slaves during the week could get in some real levels.


Eunucha
Inner Circle
Since 2001

[julwithnumbers]

Considering that marketing is not an exact science and no company is able to show the effect of its marketing efforts on customers versus the money spent on it, maybe you could enlighten us on how it works then?


Besides quoting questionable sources ;D I think you are missing the point of the post. It is about no marketing effort versus any marketing effort. That is really not too complicated.

Besides, there are a number of psychological effects that mmos (ab)use to bind players to the game by catering to atavistic traits (hunting and gathering etc.). By selling out this mechanism for potential extra revenue long term growth of the player base will be diminished by having less retention. I think that is really easy to see.

Talking about successful micro transaction: There is a game in asia where all you have to do is open boxes. To open these boxes you need to have keys which you can buy for real money. At the end of the day there is a ranking on who opened the most boxes. (There is also some stuff in these boxes but you get my point.)

Way to go i guess... ?

Average people are the majority and they like bland, easy things. It works like a charm, unless you think you can beat quantity with overwhelming quality; you won't most of the time.
It doesn't matter what or who the hell I'm quoting, I do that to point out it wasn't my idea. The fact it's a fictional character doesn't change anything, it's still good something has the courage to rub it in.
Time is money, and whichever is invested binds the player all the same. Count myself in that group, I'm not willing to start fresh in other games.
What makes you fancy AO is essentially different from buying keys and opening boxes? We do it with much more class and more brain power is involved but in the end it's the same thing. We are pathetic but at least I know I am and don't fancy myself as much different from "that Asian game of opening boxes".
The listed items for sale already exist through cred selling. Don't kid yourself, anything is buyable ingame, with few exceptions (ACDC because S42 isn't running etc). If developers can take that money more power to them.

[JediMindTricks]

Freud ... personal conflicts.

You should be quoting him and not me. At no point did I call him an idiot. It is in my humble opinion still unfortunate that he resorted to personal attacks right from the start while displaying the lack of real life knowledge (that as was later revealed had academic roots). The freud thing was a joke ;D. But when someone answers to disagreement with personal attacks that cries compensation to me. Compensation for what does not real interest me and is not my problem .

Maybe something to think of is that he has at no point provided arguments or proof nor did he link to all the studies that are proving me wrong on what he thought I had said.

Apart from that I thank you for not pursuing the topic further because you did not try to read and understand my posts and blindly jumped to the support of your buddy which in turn had insulted someone else (not me) for his supposed lack of knowledge about marketing.

Average people are the majority ... If developers can take that money more power to them.

I absolutely agree with you there. Time invested directly translates into credits/items/power. Which also leads to long term motivation to play and therefore retention of the player base. By building in shortcuts I fear that the level of retention will be lowered. Of course its all only speculation as only time will tell

[Chrazy]

Too many pages to read through, but I guess Wrangeline sums it all up pretty well. Having a 220 of one prof is not in any way a reason to get a pre-leveled toon of some other prof. It's already bad enough with all the kiting and people not learning to play their prof way later than they should have (or not at all, I've seen scary examples). I can only imagine that you want to make it like this to get rid of the pocketing somehow, but this is not the way to do it. I'm 100% sure you will lose more players than you will gain from the proposed changes/additions.

[Mastablasta]

See Alternity's posts above... if it's not worth buying the VP, why do it at all seeing how many hate it? And if you do get enough for your money, it's also worth buying them to resell for creds.

Probably because they think that their accomplishment is diminished.

One problem with levels, VP, buffs etc is that they are effectively allowing people to pay... to not have to play! Plenty of talk about this already, but in short lately there's been much talk and plans to get more people, stop much of the content not being used. Offering a way for cash to now skip the very things that need people is quite counterproductive. Not to even mention how bad many players - myself included - feel about the thought of buying levels etc in the first place.

Well, aren't everyone paying not to play in the first place? It may be that ebaying is horrible, it may be that buying a character is awful, but really how is it any worse than powerlvling through the lowbie content and then sitting at kite hill or something till you're the level you want to be? Maybe this will even be an improvement as all the people who do all the anti-social powerlvling, OST'ing and whatever else buy their characters, leaving the content open for the people who actually want to do it, instead of the ones who don't.

[Looke]

level packs (boost to 50, boost to 100, boost to 150, boost to 199).

wtf

[Matik]

Token packs will be available from the shop in different amounts. This is an item that has been long requested by the community as it represents a very significant time investment to most players.

A great many people enjoy PvP, while at the same time a great many people do not. Points will be available in the shop for those who would rather avoid the experience altogether.

Level packs (Boost to 50, Boost to 100, Boost to 150, Boost to 199). These items will only be available to accounts that already have a 220 Character as an option for those who want to play another profession at end game but do not have the time or inclination to replay the lower level end of the game another time.

Following this reasoning it would only make sense to also add endgame raid items to the shop for those players who really hate grinding raidmobs (but may enjoy levelling, token grinding and PVP). It's only fair, this way they can remain competitive after a similar investment of time and real money.

Yes, it's stupid. Just like the quoted items. Lets face it, the only criteria when deciding what should be available in the store was "what can we get away with".

Making OFAB yesdrop will already allow non-PVPers access to it.

Do any veterans really struggle levelling a new char to 199? I doubt it.

With all the new dailies it's easy to get tokens.

[erozc]

Guess what, I read the whole thread (except a few bickering trolly posts). My take, as far as anyone is interested anymore:

- Levels, tokens, etc for cash: Sure, no issue with this. What with the amount of people who afk-level already, first at kite hill and then on follow in inf missions, be my guest. They'll probably buy a bunch of XP stims too at 199. Tokens - well, they have been made to be easy enough already. But why bother with selling token packs and VP packs, when you can buy tokens for VP...

What I don't like:

- VP for cash. This goes hand in hand with yesdrop OFAB. Firstly, yesdrop OFAB will mean it's going to be so overeasy to fit a new toon in lowbie OFAB all the way up to ql150ish if you have a 220 toon, by some casual runs of the top battle station, effectively serving to the death of lower ones, just as they were slightly more alive. Money for VP serves the same goal. With the itemization changes coming, my bet is OFAB is getting streamlined to be more useful and will become the de facto standard armor at all levels. Guess how much "old" crap will just become older crap that nobody touches?

- Grid beacon, bank interface, GMS interface: So. No grid exit to APF, because it's a profession ability. No GMS search to player shops, though banks added. No fixes to Constrained Gridspace Waveform (4h comp literacy lock) but this gets added. Why not go the full monty and make a fgrid beacon that's cash buyable.

What would be interesting though, if with these buyable levels-changes, kiting/ost mechanics would be nerfed too, forcing people who want effortless afk-leveling to buy it. It's been a topic beaten to death, but so far, FC has ignored this unattended leveling mechanism. If it gets dealt with now, the coincidence would be amazing...

If this includes Wrangles, and if it makes it into the game as such, I'm deleting Ryuahn and resigning my post as Trader professional. This is absolute **** treatment of the profession, allowing other players to purchase our nanos and our tools, the same nanos and tools that made us Traders. And with all Engineers being guaranteed tradeskillers, why even have us anymore?

Hey, maybe the trader nano changes will have the same effect, that would only make sense in the end. And besides, they already gave the advy profession's unique abilities for veteran points to anyone (and even sold) - Shadowlands maps, leet morph, at least wrangles won't be free. That was crap treatment of the profession.

At least you'll still have your portable GMS interface. Oh, wait...