Want to fix tl7 pvp?

[Notcrattey]

@ Sultry and Ob : Ur BOTH right. Leave AS weps alone and change AS mechanics.

/solved

I agree with this post!

[sultryvoltron]

Hey, let's be clear ... you were talking about CAPPING consistently. Now your not. Backpeddling here? I think so. You were crying about CAPPING. Now your saying it's not about capping, but consistent damage. I guess you are just fishing for reasons now. That's OK. It's clear that you have already expired the best reasons you had. Removing a weapon because it does consistent damage? I guess we can remove all weapons then ...

Enters this thread on Page 3

AS on a one-handed weapon . . . that gives an extremely consistent AS.

Page 4.

And yes, I think it's unreasonable to provide professions with a consitent damage special that never misses . . .

Page 4.

That AS pistol freely hands out an 11s AS that hits extremely consistently to 4 more professions.

Page 5.

You are very optomistic if you think people will get rid of a consistent 11s AS weapon, along with major boosts to various areas of their toolsets.

Page 6.

That's not to say that, for example, you will AS like an Agent, but you still have a special that never misses, and can in fact cap people. Particularly only to the AS pistol is a complete removal of hitting gimp ASes.

Page 7.

No, AS is very OP'd because people who DO NOT have high AS skill can cap it on people. These same people also never miss with it, and hit very consistently because of an item that FC never should have put in game.

Page 7.

The AS pistol doesn't cap because of it's great max damage, you're right. But also, it never hits a gimp AS because of the damage range. . .

Hitting consistently doesn't mean capping consistently. In fact, the AS pistol probably caps less often than a Tiger used to, or even a Craphander when it crits.

Page 7.

Hey, let's be clear ... you were talking about CAPPING consistently.

I was? Huh... Interesting.

That doesn't make sense. AS always uses the max damage of a weapon plus crit modifier. the min damage of a weapon is completely irrelevant. Also AS multiplies add damage mods along with the damage. Hence you see fixers hitting better AS with slugs on then without and crapstatic AS when they don't crit and have no slugs running.

Edit: Found something supporting this claim. I always assumed it could vary within a damage range because of gimp ASes from a craphander. Having a 225 max damage is likely not the culprit. I suppose it has to do with +dmg being so popular for pistol setups keeping Pistol AS pretty regular? Point still stands, that pistol hits good AS consistently.

Still, AS pistol provides ~2x the max damage of Craphander, making it far more reliable (as you need a smaller multiplier to hit a decent AS), although capping with a Craphander is based on critting, and capping with a Troa'ler is based on good rolls. It's more clear to me now. Thanks.

[Obtena]

No, AS is very OP'd because people who DO NOT have high AS skill can cap it on people.

Don't for get this one .. page 7. I formatted it a bit to refresh your memory on why you told us you think AS is OPed.

[sultryvoltron]

Don't for get this one .. page 7. I formatted it a bit to refresh your memory on why you told us you think AS is OPed.

As you can see, I clearly included it because, if you understand the english language it makes my point perfectly and also shows that you have argumentatively been grasping at straws for pages.

You see,

AS is very OP'd because people who do not have high AS skill can cap it on people.

Obvious only to the masterful English wordsmith, I clearly must have said they cap every time with it. Afterall, you're the professional. You know what's best.

[Notcrattey]

AS is very OP'd because people who do not have high AS skill can cap it on people.

To be honest, this really is grasping.

[sultryvoltron]

To be honest, this really is grasping.

Try it with FA on an Engi/Doc/Crat. Good luck capping that on like... anyone. Or better yet, you're a shade. You're experience with SA. Does it cap on people if you have low SA skill? Could a Doc/Crat/Engi cap it on people?

It's not as ridiculous of a claim as you think it is. Due to how AS works, it is one of the major factors that makes AS OP'd. Any profession can make it a viable special. The same is not true for any other special.

[erozc]

It's the disgusting amount of damage it can pum pout against evade profs like MA, shade, advy, Fixer, crat, NT and trader that makes it OP'd.

That's a disgusting amount of evade profs, also you forgot shield MPs.

The AS pistol doesn't cap because of it's great max damage, you're right. But also, it never hits a gimp AS because of the damage range, something every other AS weapon those profs used was subject to, particularly the Craphander, the only comparable 1-handed AS weapon.

This is wrong.

That doesn't make sense. AS always uses the max damage of a weapon plus crit modifier. the min damage of a weapon is completely irrelevant. Also AS multiplies add damage mods along with the damage. Hence you see fixers hitting better AS with slugs on then without and crapstatic AS when they don't crit and have no slugs running.

This is correct.

Edit: Found something supporting this claim. I always assumed it could vary within a damage range because of gimp ASes from a craphander. Having a 225 max damage is likely not the culprit. I suppose it has to do with +dmg being so popular for pistol setups keeping Pistol AS pretty regular? Point still stands, that pistol hits good AS consistently.

Still, AS pistol provides ~2x the max damage of Craphander, making it far more reliable (as you need a smaller multiplier to hit a decent AS), although capping with a Craphander is based on critting, and capping with a Troa'ler is based on good rolls. It's more clear to me now. Thanks.

The pistol doesn't hit "good" AS consistently in the hands of all its users - I don't know how you came up with this claim after learning how it works. It hits consistently if you have good AS skill and lots of +add damage. Having 225 max damage does help in comparison with the Craphander, true - when you don't crit. The min damage is noticeable when you are landing regulars, with craphander they were negligible even when they hit.

It's not as ridiculous of a claim as you think it is. Due to how AS works, it is one of the major factors that makes AS OP'd. Any profession can make it a viable special. The same is not true for any other special.

If you look at the above, you'll notice that you've just begun to understand how AS works. How can you make blanket statements about any profession being able to make it viable, when you apparently don't understand what makes it tick? While the claim that "any" profession can make it "viable" is somewhat backed by Supernova-using keepers and shades, this is due to the silliness of the weapon's stupidly high max damage. The recharge will be very high, however. Unlike SA, AS recharge is determined by the weapon and skill.

Also, did you know AS ignores ACs? There are some other interesting things you might want to look into as well before making such blanket statements about one weapon.

[Obtena]

As you can see, I clearly included it because, if you understand the english language it makes my point perfectly and also shows that you have argumentatively been grasping at straws for pages.

You see,

AS is very OP'd because people who do not have high AS skill can cap it on people.

Obvious only to the masterful English wordsmith, I clearly must have said they cap every time with it. Afterall, you're the professional. You know what's best.

I'm just telling you what you said .... since you are denying that you WEREN'T whining about why AS was OPed because low AS skill people cap it when you were.

[Notcrattey]

Or better yet, you're a shade. You're experience with SA. Does it cap on people if you have low SA skill?

It barely caps with high SA skill.

[sultryvoltron]

Stuff...

There's only one comparable 1-handed AS weapon. If you compare Troa'ler with Craphander, it's clear that Troa'ler hits more consistently, Craphander hits higher when it crits. I already admitted that. Thanks for nothing though.

I'm just telling you what you said .... since you are denying that you WEREN'T whining about why AS was OPed because low AS skill people cap it when you were.

Let me tell you what you said then...

Hey, let's be clear ... you were talking about CAPPING consistently.

Now you're saying something different. Hmm... you change points alot.

It barely caps with high SA skill.

You dodged the point, but for some reason I feel like you got it.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Did someone remove the AS pistol?

I want to PVP TL7 plx.

[Johnnykay]

Yup, all advies went back to melee yesterday. You didn't hear?

[Obtena]

Let me tell you what you said then...

Now you're saying something different. Hmm... you change points alot.

Neither of my statements are contradicting or differing. I change points? That's what is called 'comprehension'. Yes, I guess it's a 'problem' that I can make and follow multiple branchs in an argument, fortunately it's not my problem.

The only thing you have do so far is continually change your position, each time being refuted. That's called PWN. You haven't presented a single reason to nerf or remove AS pistols that doesn't apply to all other AS weapons as well or even in some cases large categories of non-AS weapons. If AS pistols need a nerf, it's obvious you can't explain why.

[Kopecz]

225-225 (100) is the reason Troa'ler needs a nerf. I challenge you to name one other weapon, that's not social, that has a damage range of 0.

It hits consistent every
single
time

No other weapon in game is this consistent in terms of damage. Period.

Change the damage range and/or up the reqs on the pistol so it actually requires sacrifice to equip and problem solved.


Or better yet this guy's suggestion rocks

[Obtena]

There are lots, the immediate ones that come to mind are 2HE weapons from IS and TOTW and plastic poles.

So AS pistol needs a nerf because it has consistent AS damage even though that damage is always lower than ANY AS hits from other current AS weapons choices, with the exception of craphander (which is arguable not current at all). Interesting. I have a suggestion for a fix then. If the problem is simply consistency, FC needs to raise the max damage of the pistol so it's scaling properly with other current AS weapons.

Not reasonable? OK, then by conclusion it's unreasonable to think that consistent damage (regardless of it's relatively low value) is a reason to remove or nerf a weapon.

[Kopecz]

Thank you for showing me those melee weapons with significant drawbacks. FBR nerfs you inits and has no specials, Frosty and FBR have 0 crit modifier, and Frosty and Plastic Pole have significant attack/recharge times.

If you want me to compare pistol weaponry then those too have significant drawbacks. ABC, Abigail and BBI CAW all have multiple weapon reqs.

Troa'ler defies the entire weapon database. It is one-handed, has AS, is reasonably fast, has a damage range of 0, has only 1 weapon requirement to equip and has a crit modifier all rolled up into one.

Your sarcastic suggestion that max damage on Troa'ler should be increased fails again to take into account that using a two-handed weapon is itself a drawback and FC has historically given two-handed weapons higher damage templates. Lowering the max damage (or lowering the crit modifier) is relevant because, as XenonDe pointed out a few posts ago, max damage is what is used to calculate AS damage potential.

Also it's an exaggeration that AS hits from the Troa'ler are always lower than ANY other AS weapon. This is proven false by the simple fact that that particular pistol CAN cap AS just like other AS weapons. In addition, by your logic weapons such as X-3s and Arbalests would be more popular because, hey, they can do more AS damage.

[Obtena]

Hey you asked to see weapons with 0 damage spread ... I gave you some. It was your mistake to think that a zero damage spread was the reason AS pistol needs a nerf. If you knew how AS worked, you would realize that it's irrelevant ... AS works off of max weapon damage and ignores AC's.

If it's so easy for a low AS skilled profession to cap AS using a low damage weapon, it's certainly much easier for the same prof with same AS skill to cap it with a high damage weapon. The fact that AS pistol caps even with it's pathetic damage stats is again, a problem with AS and it's multipliers, not a problem with the concept of AS pistols. Again, that approach dictates that ALL AS weapons with max damage higher than AS pistol needs to be nerfed.

... or really, it's an AS problem, not any particular weapon.

[Kopecz]

Hey you asked to see weapons with 0 damage spread ... I gave you some.

You brought in the 2H argument when you posted about FBR, Frosty, and Plastic Pole, that means they're fair game for me to use in refuting your argument. Posing that as being part of my position is a complete staw man.

I simply pointed out, using the examples you provided (i.e. 2 handed melee weapons), that having a damage range of 0 has historically come with a cost of some sort associated with it. Troa'ler has no such cost.

I also pointed out how similar pistol weapons with AS also have significant costs associated with using them, hence why they are never used.

The second part of your so-called rebuttal was to propose that the max damage of Troa'ler should be increased to be in line with other AS weapons. I already showed how this was a fallacy using the historical evidence of other 1H AS weapons.

And regardless of your equivocation over how much damage this and that AS weapon do; the fact remains that the Troa'ler has no drawbacks, not even a damage range, and even though other weapons can do more damage doesn't mean that they always did. If indeed what you say was the current case crats and docs would still be using those other weapons in pvp because their chance of performing damage would be higher. This is clearly not the case.

My proposed solutions: change the damage range, provide a significant drawback, increase the requirements or change AS into a perk action like Backstab have been ignored by you in an attempt to poke a hole in one part of my argument that I've shown, twice now, is strongly backed by the history of weapons in AO.

[Obtena]

You brought in the 2H argument when you posted about FBR, Frosty, and Plastic Pole,

You asked for weapons that gave you zero damage spread. I listed some. It's that simple. No more no less.

I'm LAWL at your 'significant cost' when using 1H AS weapons make them unused. That's a clever way of saying "Make people waste so much IP to use it, no one could afford it". Why is that reasonable? I don't see anyone else's PVP weapons having a significant cost to use, including other AS weapons, so why does Pistols need it. In fact, Pistols have MR skill ... I don't see MR requirements on 2H AS weapons. Most of the profs using AS pistol have dark blue MR right? That's about as significant cost to using 1H AS weapons as is needed if you ask me.

The only thing stopping people from using the 'traditional' 1H AS weapons is that their AS sucks so badly, it's not worth the damage reduction from duel wielding, in case their offhands land some hits. The fact is that of ALL the 1H AS weapons, everyone gravitates to the craphander, not because it's good either. That's it, that's all. If the historical evidence suggests anything, it's exactly how much AS needs to be fixed so FC can give the professions weapons that are supported by their toolsets for PVP. It's rather dumb to suggest that the 'historical evidence' shows that the weakest AS profs with the historically weakest AS weapons need their single supported and effective PVP weapon to be nerfed because AS is broken. That's the most colossal bull**** I ever heard.

The damage range on AS pistol is fine. Your suggestion that changing it 'fixes' the pistol shows you don't know how AS works. AS based off of the max damage. Even if the damage spread was 1-225, it's AS would still hit for the same as a 225-225 weapon.

And yes, the other weapons DID always do more damage simply by the fact that their max damages are all higher. It's not some abstract math theory here. The weapons that have the bigger max damage do more AS damage, for the same AS multiplier. Add in crits if you want. The Pistol crits like crap compared to current AS weapons ... even the craphander is better crit than AS pistol.

[Kopecz]

You asked for weapons that gave you zero damage spread. I listed some. It's that simple. No more no less.

And you replied with weapons that ended up having nothing to do with your argument, but sure support mine.

The damage range on AS pistol is fine. Your suggestion that changing it 'fixes' the pistol shows you don't know how AS works. AS based off of the max damage. Even if the damage spread was 1-225, it's AS would still hit for the same as a 225-225 weapon.

Here again you put words in my mouth. Never once have I yet said HOW the range should be adjusted. You made the astounding leap of logic that the range should be 1-225 yourself.

The Pistol crits like crap compared to current AS weapons ... even the craphander is better crit than AS pistol.

Craphander is inconsistent. That's its drawback. Troa'ler has no drawback and you've yet to show in any significant way that it does. MR is not even an argument considering that, with the exception of Peh'wer, every other pistol has a lower MR req and therefore that number would be what is used to establish the MR skill needed.

single supported weapon

And to top it all off you yourself admit that Troa'ler is an abomination when compared against an entire database of weaponry.