Want to fix tl7 pvp?

[Obtena]

Those design decisions have only historically applied to non-AS Pistol weapons. Since the only post-SL pistol weapon with AS as a special is the Troa'ler there is no other comparison to make. It is unique in the history of AO. If this was about another weapon/special combination your argument would be spot on.

Then that means the AS pistol SETS the precedent.

[Hacre]

Then that means the AS pistol SETS the precedent.

Which is still a leap.

Did we already have dual wield AS weapons? Yes.
Did we already have pistols? Yes.
Did we already have pistols with high minimum damage? Yes.
Are professions other than Agents able to use AS? Yes.

The only precedent is putting AS on a pistol. Thus far there have been no arguments for how this OPs Crats Docs or Engineers.

[Obtena]

^^ That's agreeable. I'm just illustrating he's contradicting him self. he's already told us that AS Troaler is OPed BECAUSE other weapons have set precedents. Now his latest post is telling us it's not. I'm just wondering when some sense will emerge.

[sultryvoltron]

AS mechanics allow it.

But even you think AS mechanics are broken.

Then that means the AS pistol SETS the precedent.

DShark set the precedent for Full Auto and Burst weapons having insta-capped recharges. Does that make it right?

Which is still a leap.

Did we already have dual wield AS weapons? Yes.
Did we already have pistols? Yes.
Did we already have pistols with high minimum damage? Yes.
Are professions other than Agents able to use AS? Yes.

The only precedent is putting AS on a pistol. Thus far there have been no arguments for how this OPs Crats Docs or Engineers.

Do things always have to be OP to be inherently wrong? Honest question here...

Agents using Bows to get some decent PvM crits isn't OP. It's just inherently wrong, in my opinion, for professions to have to rely on unsupported means to attain an acceptable level of performance.

The AS pistol is stupid because it forces people to drop obviously synergetic pieces of armor or gear in favor of maximizing the performance of a single weapon because it has one particular special. It is OPd because the ability to never miss with a hit every 11 seconds is deemed more useful than maximizing the toolset of the professions using it. If a single weapon is more valuable than nearly an entire toolset (hi Engis who don't use pets), then it is too powerful.

I suppose the exact same argument applies to the Tiger. Professions did the exact same thing before the AS pistol, but they gave up more to do so. I guess we felt more sorry for them back then because of what they gave up for AS. Now? They give up much much less to get that AS and get better overall performance with perks and decent AR.

The AS pistol makes the professions who use it clones. It is more effective than maximizing your own toolset. The AS pistol should be removed because it is stupid.

[Hacre]

But even you think AS mechanics are broken.

DShark set the precedent for Full Auto and Burst weapons having insta-capped recharges. Does that make it right?

Do things always have to be OP to be inherently wrong? Honest question here...

Agents using Bows to get some decent PvM crits isn't OP. It's just inherently wrong, in my opinion, for professions to have to rely on unsupported means to attain an acceptable level of performance.

The AS pistol is stupid because it forces people to drop obviously synergetic pieces of armor or gear in favor of maximizing the performance of a single weapon because it has one particular special. It is OPd because the ability to never miss with a hit every 11 seconds is deemed more useful than maximizing the toolset of the professions using it. If a single weapon is more valuable than nearly an entire toolset (hi Engis who don't use pets), then it is too powerful.

I suppose the exact same argument applies to the Tiger. Professions did the exact same thing before the AS pistol, but they gave up more to do so. I guess we felt more sorry for them back then because of what they gave up for AS. Now? They give up much much less to get that AS and get better overall performance with perks and decent AR.

The AS pistol makes the professions who use it clones. It is more effective than maximizing your own toolset. The AS pistol should be removed because it is stupid.

Now we get some logic, but I've already agreed with what you're trying to say in previous posts. I'd far rather have a functioning toolset built around the Crat professions rather than a one size fits all "fix".

I'm not arguing whether or not the AS pistol should be in the game. I'm pointing out that its removal isn't going to fix anything and that it doesn't make Crats overpowered. It is not the root of the issue or even the cause of it.

[Kopecz]

Then that means the AS pistol SETS the precedent.

The only precedent is putting AS on a pistol. Thus far there have been no arguments for how this OPs Crats Docs or Engineers.

I'm just illustrating he's contradicting him self. he's already told us that AS Troaler is OPed BECAUSE other weapons have set precedents.

I edited my previous post. In it you find this statement:

If you argue it creates a new precedent I'm allowed to argue its validity.

Indeed Hacre is correct that the only precedent is putting AS on a 100% pistol weapon and that is what I continue to argue is the issue. Also the statement about 0 spread is still valid since I premise that it's a design flaw on FC's part to resurrect a pre-SL design and try to apply it to an LoX environment. I have not contradicted myself. I am still arguing its invalidity.

In the post-script, Obtena, you'd have seen how it is that I claim that the existence of the Troa'ler pistol is invalid. I'll repost that here for you do see as well:

To clarify my premise, since I can see how one of my previous statements could be taken a different way - I'm not arguing that -using- the pistol makes one OP. I'm arguing that the -pistol- is OP based on the precedents "If Pistol w/ AS --> multiple weapons reqs" and "If 0 damage spread --> then significant drawbacks" both of which are logically valid arguments and in both of which Troa'ler is deemed invalid.

I understand that Hacre is arguing a different point, namely that the pistol does not make one OP by using it. I'm not arguing it because there are hundreds of variables that go into supporting that premise. In the end, I flipped the debate on you, Obtena, and you were unable to recognize the premise I was aguing. Just as Hacre points out that nothing has been offered to show that using the pistol is OP, neither has anything been shown to prove that my premise is invalid.

[Obtena]

Sure, you want to argue the validity of a AS pistol? You go ahead. It's valid simply by the fact that AS is a range special and pistols are ranged weapons and there is no reason you can't put the two together to get an AS pistol. There's no reason it SHOULDN'T exist, which is why it's a shame it took FC this long to put it in. The only other things you can argue about is it's stats or it's performance. It's stats are at BEST average for a pistol, regardless of whatever special category you want to try to place it in / For performance, no worse than other weapons they were using that they had NO weapon support for.

Like Hacre said, all the stats for the existence of the pistol were set in AO a long time ago. FC finally put those stats together to make a weapon that pistol users have support for in PVP. The fact that Hacre points out that nothing has been offered to show that using the pistol is OP isn't new in this thread.

[erozc]

Just... This thing before I go nuts. What the heck is the beef with the damage range? The damage range has no, zero, zilch effect on AS performance. Either this means that:

1) You are arguing that the max damage is too high. In this case, you should flat out state that the max damage of the weapon is too high.
2) You are arguing that the min damage of the weapon is too high. In this case, you are worried about what kind of regular hits the weapon scores. Do you have any idea how low a percentage of damage regular hits from one weapon, in a dual wielding situation, contribute to damage?
3) You are arguing that the max damage should be higher, with the min damage either being the same or lower. This would cause bigger, better AS.

Either way, weapons with 1 minimum damage don't belong to "modern" AO either, in the sense that no added weapon since aeons has had that, discounting leet dolls, signs, and AS baseball bats.

Still, for the sake of the argument: I'd, as a ranged advy since forever, quite happily go back to the Craphander if the range was beefed up to something like 20m, the attack skills to pistol, and the minimum damage to today's standards (not because the regulars matter that much, but because they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside). Though min damage of today would mean a weapon where the max is lower than the minimum, which would be interesting. I do remember hitting for 700 point ASes with the craphander before, sure. But this isn't a big picture statement, since once the devs have their way with nanos, the perks become changed, etc, it's hard to say what's what.

TL;DR: I should promise myself not to write on the balance forums until all the changes are here. Or after having 10 beers.

[Obtena]

The AS pistol makes the professions who use it clones. It is more effective than maximizing your own toolset. The AS pistol should be removed because it is stupid.

That's nice poetry, but it doesn't make any sense. They are clones? Clones of what?

AS pistol is part of a toolset these professions have lacked for years. They ARE maximizing their toolset by using it.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

That's nice poetry, but it doesn't make any sense. They are clones? Clones of what?

AS pistol is part of a toolset these professions have lacked for years. They ARE maximizing their toolset by using it.

LOOOL Great argument!

The Full auto longsword is a VITAL part of my toolset I've been missing for YEARS!

as soon as it's put in game, I'll finally realize my potential as the mother f*cking ass whooppin keeper I was meant to be!

[Obtena]

Sorry, FA is a ranged special and swords aren't. AS is a ranged special and pistols are ranged weapons. Therefore, it's not unreasonable for AS to be on pistols but it is unreasonable for FA to be on swords. It's a simple argument and it's rather stupid to think otherwise. I woudl wager that every combination of ranged special has made it to every type of ranged weapon at some point, why is it so wrong that AS finally made it to a pistol? There aren't specail rules that you think exist that say certain specials can't be on certain types of weapons.

[Kopecz]

Sure, you want to argue the validity of a AS pistol? You go ahead. It's valid simply by the fact that AS is a range special and pistols are ranged weapons and there is no reason you can't put the two together to get an AS pistol.

I don't know how many other ways to explain this to you Obtena. You're trying to argue a data set of exactly 1. One pistol in the entirety of AO that is 100% pistol and has AS as a special. Until the LoX patch, meaning for 8 years of AO game play, FC did a damn good job of keeping 100% pistols with AS out of the hands of pistol users. There is no such other pistol in any full expansion. Period. There's no arguing that. In order to create this pistol FC had to do away with precedents that had not been broken in any major expansion. There's no arguing that either. The pistol shouldn't exist because it's a design flaw. Unless you can come up with another weapon to compare to you have no argument as to why it -should- exist.

Just... This thing before I go nuts. What the heck is the beef with the damage range? The damage range has no, zero, zilch effect on AS performance.

Either way, weapons with 1 minimum damage don't belong to "modern" AO either, in the sense that no added weapon since aeons has had that, discounting leet dolls, signs, and AS baseball bats.

That's exactly my point. No "modern" weapon has that particular stat (same min/max dmg). FC tried to resurrect an old game design and apply it to a modern version of the game. In doing so they clearly violate those same game designs which haven't been overturned, because there's no modern weapons to compare to (FC has never designed a weapon w/ 0 dmg spread and no drawbacks and FC has never designed a pistol w/ AS that didn't have multiple weapon reqs [a drawback] in any expansion until LoX). In fact, they did away with 0 damage spread weapons somewhere in the SL expansion, as Hacre pointed out. So why bring it back at all? In doing so FC created a design flaw on multiple levels, first being the resurrection of 0 spread weaponry, second being not having drawbacks on said 0 spread weaponry.

That being the case, any weapon with a damage spread of 0 (225-225 in the case of the Troa'ler) should still have a significant drawback like its predecessors (i.e. higher attack/recharge, no crit, nerf to inits, no specials, low MBS) because there's no modern precedent for eliminating drawbacks on 0 damage spread weapons. Or, Troa'ler should have multiple weapon requirements if it has AS as a special. As dumb as that sounds, it hasn't been overturned as a precedent because there were no pistols designed since Notum Wars that had AS as a special (there's no Kyr'ozch Pistol Type 2 for example).

If that's not reasonable then the Troa'ler is a design flaw as it represents a data set of 1 and should be removed.

why is it so wrong that AS finally made it to a pistol? There aren't specail rules that you think exist that say certain specials can't be on certain types of weapons.

You're right, it's not wrong that AS be a special on a pistol, but it's wrong to be on a 100% pistol AR pistol. If AS deserves to be on a 100% pistol based weapon, then prove it. I've shown you my proof as to why it shouldn't.

[Hacre]

You're right, it's not wrong that AS be a special on a pistol, but it's wrong to be on a 100% pistol AR pistol. If AS deserves to be on a 100% pistol based weapon, then prove it. I've shown you my proof as to why it shouldn't.

You have a funny idea of what "proof" is. You haven't proven anything. All you've done is rant on about old weapons and how the Troa'ler is a unique weapon.

The only proof that exists for the Troa'ler, is the fact that FC made it and put it into the game. You could debate that it shouldn't exist, however you're going to have to do a lot better to make any ground on that debate. I've shown how it isn't overpowered in the hands of 3 of the 4 professions that use it. You've continued to go on about other weapons and comparisons to other weapons. I've never in my time on these forums seen such a ridiculous straw man beaten to death like you're doing here. It's akin to spam.

[Weltall]

I've shown how it isn't overpowered in the hands of 3 of the 4 professions that use it.

Where have you done that? It isn't overpowered in the hands of 1 of 4 profs actually. Crats, ranged advs, engis should not have access to that thing, it's not too bad in doc hands though tbh.

[sultryvoltron]

Sure, you want to argue the validity of a AS pistol? You go ahead. It's valid simply by the fact that AS is a range special and pistols are ranged weapons and there is no reason you can't put the two together to get an AS pistol. There's no reason it SHOULDN'T exist, which is why it's a shame it took FC this long to put it in. The only other things you can argue about is it's stats or it's performance. It's stats are at BEST average for a pistol, regardless of whatever special category you want to try to place it in / For performance, no worse than other weapons they were using that they had NO weapon support for.

Like Hacre said, all the stats for the existence of the pistol were set in AO a long time ago. FC finally put those stats together to make a weapon that pistol users have support for in PVP. The fact that Hacre points out that nothing has been offered to show that using the pistol is OP isn't new in this thread.

Where's my FA shotgun?

Claiming that any combonation of weapons and specials should exist, simply because they can is a very weak argument.

Similarly, claiming that any given items shouldn't exist simply because they do is also a bad argument. Thus, read some posts above. There are many reasons that an AS pistol should not exist, including (but not limited to) forcing professions to sacrifice important aspects of gear to maximize the damage from AS. Also, the AS pistol allows FC to continue to use it as a crutch instead of maximizing and individualizing the gameplay of various professions.

That's nice poetry, but it doesn't make any sense. They are clones? Clones of what?

AS pistol is part of a toolset these professions have lacked for years. They ARE maximizing their toolset by using it.

Come on... stop playing dumb. You know exactly what I meant.

And frankly, specials are not part of any toolset. Claiming they are is very ignorant on your part. Maximizing the performance of any given special is not maximizing your toolset. For example, I certainly don't see how making fixers better with Sneak Attack will make their snares and roots work better, their GA provide more protection, and their item summons to actually be worth a damn. Also I doubt wearing any AS weapon will make ICH increase in healing. Do you suppose Enfs could solve their toolset complaints by simply getting better with Fast Attack?

Hmm... I guess none of those things work. I guess specials have no effect on toolset afterall...

[Hacre]

Where's my FA shotgun?

In magical dream land. A pistol can be aimed accurately inside 40 metres for crying out loud. Stop being so retarded Sultry, you're far smarter than that.

Claiming that any combonation of weapons and specials should exist, simply because they can is a very weak argument.

Similarly, claiming that any given items shouldn't exist simply because they do is also a bad argument. Thus, read some posts above. There are many reasons that an AS pistol should not exist, including (but not limited to) forcing professions to sacrifice important aspects of gear to maximize the damage from AS. Also, the AS pistol allows FC to continue to use it as a crutch instead of maximizing and individualizing the gameplay of various professions.

Right, but you're missing the big hole in this entire argument. FC admitted publicly that the AS pistol wasn't in any way guaranteed to stay in the game. They told us it was a band aid fix while the whole rebalancing project was in the works. This hasn't changed. None of the AS pistol users expect to keep it and why I never bothered getting one in the first place. I'd done AS on a Crat and I did ok with it. I would rather wait for a more Crat centric toolset, however.

And frankly, specials are not part of any toolset. Claiming they are is very ignorant on your part. Maximizing the performance of any given special is not maximizing your toolset. For example, I certainly don't see how making fixers better with Sneak Attack will make their snares and roots work better, their GA provide more protection, and their item summons to actually be worth a damn. Also I doubt wearing any AS weapon will make ICH increase in healing. Do you suppose Enfs could solve their toolset complaints by simply getting better with Fast Attack?

Specials are part of a toolset. Your toolset is your character, its abilities, its equipment, its weaponry and its perks/research/procs. Toolset is everything at your disposal.

This is not to say, that everything in the game is part of your toolset, however. The various eccentricities of any profession, provide for a more obvious collection of tools to include in your toolset. While AS itself is not (and in the long term, should not) a part of a Crat's, Doctor's or Engineer's toolset, pistols are and the pistol users have asked for a long time to have pistols worth using, particularly in PvP.

You see, not having pistols worth using, or a perk set worth using them with, particularly in PvP, when pistols are the only weapon you're given any specific support for as part of your character toolset (perks, symbiant support, nanos, armour) becomes rather frustrating. FC for whatever reason, decided to throw us and the gimped ranged Advies a collective bone to play with while they worked on the long rebalancing project. Unfortunately they didn't quite think it all through, since the pistol with the perks is ridiculous in the hands of an Adventurer, it's a step in the right direction for Crats and Docs, and I believe works well for Engineers too, however bear in mind that Engineers don't get -fabulous- AR with a pistol and last I heard the perks don't work with the AMEP because of the tradeskill boost on that pistol. Unless that got fixed, either way it's irrelevant.

FC are aware the involvement of AS in PvP isn't a good thing and it will be fixed in the rebalancing. That doesn't change the fact that today, for a support/pet class to perform better in PvP, AS is in the equation until the -whole- toolset is reworked.

Hmm... I guess none of those things work. I guess specials have no effect on toolset afterall...

Yeah, like I said, stop it.

[sultryvoltron]

In magical dream land. A pistol can be aimed accurately inside 40 metres for crying out loud. Stop being so retarded Sultry, you're far smarter than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c
Just sayin'. Also, rifles @ 1 KM range please

Also, a pistol to use in PvP did not need AS. I squarely blame FC for that one (and Sterva a little bit, since Troa'ler is EXACTLY what he suggested in a thread I can't be asked to find). The perk changes were good, I'll admit that. The AS on a pistol was totally uncalled for, and can only be attributed to dev laziness and lack of creativity.

Does it get the job done for Crats/Engis/Docs? I suppose it does.
Was it a good solution? Well, it was easy.
Is it the best solution? Hell no.

Meanwhile other profs with problems that aren't as easy to circumvent as "just use AS lol" are still struggling while waiting for rebalance. That's easily attributed to FC doing it wrong by releasing the first wave of what we all thought was rebalance, then taking... god how long has it been that I've been trolling these balance threads? Far too long that's for sure.

Actually, I don't even know why I just told you that. It's nothing you didn't know already so... I digress. Why does this thread even exist? Rebalance looks to be like 6-8 months away. I'm not coming back until then, neither are you, and neither are most others. Those of us who didn't receive that massive love during the "prof-by-prof group wave rebalancing" are just a tad tired of being killed by flavor of the month lovechilds, of which at least one of them wields an AS pistol. The power of crats is debatable, and not entirely based on the AS pistol (AOE fear anyone?)... The other two... meh.

[Hacre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c
Just sayin'. Also, rifles @ 1 KM range please

Also, a pistol to use in PvP did not need AS. I squarely blame FC for that one (and Sterva a little bit, since Troa'ler is EXACTLY what he suggested in a thread I can't be asked to find). The perk changes were good, I'll admit that. The AS on a pistol was totally uncalled for, and can only be attributed to dev laziness and lack of creativity.

Does it get the job done for Crats/Engis/Docs? I suppose it does.
Was it a good solution? Well, it was easy.
Is it the best solution? Hell no.

Meanwhile other profs with problems that aren't as easy to circumvent as "just use AS lol" are still struggling while waiting for rebalance. That's easily attributed to FC doing it wrong by releasing the first wave of what we all thought was rebalance, then taking... god how long has it been that I've been trolling these balance threads? Far too long that's for sure.

Actually, I don't even know why I just told you that. It's nothing you didn't know already so... I digress. Why does this thread even exist? Rebalance looks to be like 6-8 months away. I'm not coming back until then, neither are you, and neither are most others. Those of us who didn't receive that massive love during the "prof-by-prof group wave rebalancing" are just a tad tired of being killed by flavor of the month lovechilds, of which at least one of them wields an AS pistol. The power of crats is debatable, and not entirely based on the AS pistol (AOE fear anyone?)... The other two... meh.

But who, apart from MPs and Keepers, are really struggling in PvP right now? MPs have problems with offensive perks and terrible pets but they already have AS, so there's no quick bandaid you could really toss them. Keepers being overly perk reliant in the face of ever increasing health and crap melee sync isn't an easy fix either without throwing Sneak Attack at a 2he keeper only weapon, but SA kinda sucks anyway without crits and besides the profession is still highly winsome in PvM.

I know I quit largely because I was unhappy with my NT but that wasn't because of a lack of kills. It got boring and Omni active Trader population exploded -because- Clan had so many NTs. My Crat was fun too.

[sultryvoltron]

But who, apart from MPs and Keepers, are really struggling in PvP right now? MPs have problems with offensive perks and terrible pets but they already have AS, so there's no quick bandaid you could really toss them. Keepers being overly perk reliant in the face of ever increasing health and crap melee sync isn't an easy fix either without throwing Sneak Attack at a 2he keeper only weapon, but SA kinda sucks anyway without crits and besides the profession is still highly winsome in PvM.

I know I quit largely because I was unhappy with my NT but that wasn't because of a lack of kills. It got boring and Omni active Trader population exploded -because- Clan had so many NTs. My Crat was fun too.

There was a thread in the Agent section called "Playing an Agent is AIDS."

Sums that one up pretty well.

Not to mention the non-perfect prof/breed combos that are terribly gimp in PvP. Also single setups dominating other setups. Stupid IWIN button scenarions just frustrate the hell out of everyone. Things like this all need fixed sooner rather than later.

[Hacre]

There was a thread in the Agent section called "Playing an Agent is AIDS."

Sums that one up pretty well.

Not to mention the non-perfect prof/breed combos that are terribly gimp in PvP. Also single setups dominating other setups. Stupid IWIN button scenarions just frustrate the hell out of everyone. Things like this all need fixed sooner rather than later.

Yes crap like that does need fixing but it doesn't happen overnight.

I didn't ask that. I asked who is really struggling in PvP at the moment, if we're hand on heart honest?