Mongo Rage

[sultryvoltron]

This thread is so full of whine, most emo thread by far.

It is full of lots of whining, but on at least some level most people agree that having MR around is just a bad idea. It's a silly solution to a glaring problem, simply put people have WAY too high evades, and there's next to no similar support for AR.

Putting in a one-button-win ability to solve an obvious problem, and then stapling onto it the note of "if you want to fight evades you can breed change to Trox" is just plain stupid.

[fortorn]

I like to speak about MR from different approach.
First of all - what kind of "feature" MR is? Is it a gank tool or a tool to run on a regular basis with similar to aura or long temp buff?
Duration tells me that MR is pure gank tool or a tool to win a fight in an extremely short period of time. Then again, if we have an offensive tool of a kind - we have to have a defensive tool of same kind.
Let's see what people use to counter MR... There is Evasive Stance, there is Deceptive stance, but their cooldown is 10 minutes. MR got 2 minutes cooldown or smth?
Then again, MR is breed feature, ES and DS are prof features.

Imo, if we're going to talk about balance - we should aim on getting breeds balanced without considering specific profession, as far as balancing professions without taking breeds into consideration.

Of course, a mix of prof/breed can give advantage while comparing to other prof/breed mix, but such advantage should be minimal.
If MR will stay the same - same AAO bonus, same recharge, same cooldown - then a feature to counter it should have almost the same AAD bonus, nearly same recharge and cooldown.

I'm not sure if MR's AAO should be decreased to 500 or 600 or 1000, but I'm sure that other breed perks should be tweaked or changed to become an appropriate countermeasure.

You know I don't normally endorse or agree with anything Arty has to say but hes making sense here. There should be some adequate defense if the offense remains.

I also think in a fight, all things being equal a defensive setup should outlast an offensive setup as a rule. An offender should always have to put forth twice the effort to kill a defender. Its that way in every facet of society and so it should be here.

But defenders should never be able to kill quickly. Full defense means outlast, not out damage. That kind of change makes PvP both intuitive and challenging.

[Humlee]

Being a long time lover of the wonders of Mongo rage, I do think getting 1500 AAO should come with some drawbacks to your defense. 1000 or 1500 aad deduction while the AAO buff is running and an extended 10 seconds after would make firing MR a bigger risk and not just facerolling 123 after executing.

[Waahash]

Being a long time lover of the wonders of Mongo rage, I do think getting 1500 AAO should come with some drawbacks to your defense. 1000 or 1500 aad deduction while the AAO buff is running and an extended 10 seconds after would make firing MR a bigger risk and not just facerolling 123 after executing.

A downside to something strong? You're a mad man.

[Humlee]

A downside to something strong? You're a mad man.

But should something like this be implemented, there should equally be downsides to use the other breed specific AI perks. The other 3 become quite balanced after the rebalance.

[Waahash]

But should something like this be implemented, there should equally be downsides to use the other breed specific AI perks. The other 3 become quite balanced after the rebalance.

Precisely the reason I said you were crazy. Why should anyone make sacrifice for anything? ;p

[boombox]

First, i killed 0 hecklers to ding 1-200
Second, lets say MR should make people able to perk anyone with CIB

no no, lets keep it as it is..

lets say cib should be +1500 instead? ;p


noob.

[Hellrule]

the problem is no one on this forums has common sense.

evades and ar are never supposed to be equal. if they were, evades wouldn't be useful.
having more reliable ways to kill an evade class is one thing, but wanting to be able to faceroll them with every perk because derp "i have no skills" is another thing all together.

[Waahash]

Why, in a game that is being reworked for team pvp, should a single breed be given 1500 AR anymore? It's a bit high if we're being expected to bring along friends. 400-500, perhaps even 750 AR is still an awesome boost and it's not so high that people hugging fully defensive setups can still perk others that have full defensive setups (provided that their profession has decent support for evades/def).

[Blackcradle]

Because then all the MR noobs would cancel their accounts; then 1/3 of this games population would be gone. I really can't think of any other logical reason why it should remain as is, or even as is in the balance documents. So retarded.

[Waahash]

Because then all the MR noobs would cancel their accounts; then 1/3 of this games population would be gone. I really can't think of any other logical reason why it should remain as is, or even as is in the balance documents. So retarded.

I'm fine with a large AR buffing breed perk. I'm just wondering why it has to be that large when we're going to be expected to bring teams for pvp now. It's on your teammates as well as you to kill the evader, not the atrox team member. Just as much as it is on an evader's back to bring support to help it survive the other team.

Shorten the AR buff from 400-600ish? but extend the duration by 5 more seconds I say. No -AAD after it, and it's losing all the other drawbacks on it. This is of course my opinion and the MR users will of course disagree, while people who dislike MR will say that I'm being too generous in my assessment.

As it is, opifex omni SB gives 800 AR for 20 seconds, and atrox breed perk gives 1500 for 10. Opifex omni SB has a 5 hour recharge, atrox breed perk is a few minutes. The difference here is a large lockout for a powerful ability based on breed AND faction (the clan opifex SB has its own def buff + damage buff and blockers according to ao-universe, forgive me if I don't play clan opi ;p) and the atrox gets just under twice as much of the AR for a much shorter cooldown. Seems a bit out of proportion for pvp.

[sultryvoltron]

the problem is no one on this forums has common sense.

evades and ar are never supposed to be equal. if they were, evades wouldn't be useful.
having more reliable ways to kill an evade class is one thing, but wanting to be able to faceroll them with every perk because derp "i have no skills" is another thing all together.

No, the problem is not evades and AR being equal between different professions. The problem is defensive setups getting massive AR because of MR. At least, that's one problem.

Another problem is that some fully equipped endgame toons geared out for AR cannot perk evade professions. The top AR profs should be able to perk the top Def profs, but be squishy as can be.

[Hellrule]

No, the problem is not evades and AR being equal between different professions. The problem is defensive setups getting massive AR because of MR. At least, that's one problem.

Another problem is that some fully equipped endgame toons geared out for AR cannot perk evade professions. The top AR profs should be able to perk the top Def profs, but be squishy as can be.

This game can never have that. If a full ar toon can perk a full def toon, there only defense is stripped away. Minus Advies, no evade class has any sort of reliable backup defense that can withstand a full alpha of perks. Until they change how perks work, you simply cannot have evade classes being perked by anything full ar.

What funcom needs to do is work out a way for AR classes to wittle down evade classes without compromising their 1 defense, and decrease the amount of damage evade classes can do so they are not so imbalanced.

[Shrubberyman]

You forgot the corollary to Sultry's idea : if indeed the full AR toon pushed his AR so high he can perk a full def toon, then this full AR toon's defense would be so low that the full def toon's AR would prolly be enough to perk through them.

Don't look at me that way, I can't think of a clearer way to put it.

[Hellrule]

full ar toons do not depend on evades to mitigate damage though, so no matter how hard they push AR they still can actively use their own specialized defenses.

[sultryvoltron]

full ar toons do not depend on evades to mitigate damage though, so no matter how hard they push AR they still can actively use their own specialized defenses.

Think of a non-mimic Agent in terms of defense.

I certainly did not say that Soldiers should be the highest AR prof post-balance, which is clearly what you're thinking.

The only real outlier in this idea is crats, being the only 100% evade reliant prof. That obviously could use some adjustments, but we'll see how the new droid sacrifices play out.

[Hellrule]

Think of a non-mimic Agent in terms of defense.

I certainly did not say that Soldiers should be the highest AR prof post-balance, which is clearly what you're thinking.

The only real outlier in this idea is crats, being the only 100% evade reliant prof. That obviously could use some adjustments, but we'll see how the new droid sacrifices play out.

Fixer's,Shade's,and Crat's pretty much fall into the same category, no true burst defense. MA's have more reliable burst healing, Advies are a whole different subject

soldier's are not effected by full ar. but full ar enforcer's still have a ton of healing,absorbs, and damage mitigation. agent's have mimic's though, doc's have heals, nt's have absorbs & nbs, etc.

other professions can blur the line between evades/static defenses but they are still there.


side note, i am not seeing all of these defenses are equal in strength, just for the fact that they are there.

[sultryvoltron]

Enfs won't with those nano changes... Lol.

I won't pretend like I know anything about what's incoming for Agents, but I think it would be cool if they got a pretty hefty AR boost, with various AR penalties based on what you Mimic, since different kinds of buffs and debuffs will be attached to each Mimic now. This way pure Agents would have some sort of significant advantage over Mimics, which serve as fill-ins.

Docs can't really push AR... Neither can NTs. Not sure why you included those. Also, if a Doc or NT went full AR, they would certainly gimp their survival by sacrificing lots of HP and evades respectively.

[Hellrule]

Enfs won't with those nano changes... Lol.

I won't pretend like I know anything about what's incoming for Agents, but I think it would be cool if they got a pretty hefty AR boost, with various AR penalties based on what you Mimic, since different kinds of buffs and debuffs will be attached to each Mimic now. This way pure Agents would have some sort of significant advantage over Mimics, which serve as fill-ins.

Docs can't really push AR... Neither can NTs. Not sure why you included those. Also, if a Doc or NT went full AR, they would certainly gimp their survival by sacrificing lots of HP and evades respectively.

Meh I know doc's cant push AR but they can focus on a setup and still have all of their defenses available to them which is the point i'm trying to make. Every profession has a defense they can fall back on when evades fail, even though some are much better then others.

The true evade professions only have evades, you can say fixer's hots are heals, but post balance with their 20sec ticks, won't do anything vs burst damage. Shade heals won't do anything against burst as well, same for crats. If full AR professions can perk full DEF professions, they have nothing.

[Xenotric]

Would say one of crats major defenses would be their CC, deinits can do a lot for survivability