Mongo Rage

[Notcrattey]

that wasn't its only purpose There were other things that went into that can of worms.

Still, claiming that something shouldn't be reworked because of the purpose it was put in years ago? I say it should be moved down to a +500 AR buff as been suggested NUMEROUS times to keep in line with other breed benefits.

[Towerblock]

You could put it to 250 and people will still bitch.

[mcnurja]

this perk's reason is to become perk anything no matter what, they should raise it to 2500 since theres few professions that are unperkable even with +5k ar...

[Hellrule]

this perk's reason is to become perk anything no matter what, they should raise it to 2500 since theres few professions that are unperkable even with +5k ar...

More band aid fixes like as pistol and 80% pistol perks? We see how well that worked out. Lets fix the issue not break it more

[Obtena]

More band aid fixes like as pistol and 80% pistol perks? We see how well that worked out. Lets fix the issue not break it more

Maybe you characterize it as a band-aid fix. Doesn't mean it's true. The issue here is that evade profs are hard to kill, not that troxes have MR.

[Obtena]

The purpose of triples was to destroy low HP setups, and look that's being removed! Hurf durf

What's this have to do with MR?

[Hellrule]

Maybe you characterize it as a band-aid fix. Doesn't mean it's true. The issue here is that evade profs are hard to kill, not that troxes have MR.

We don't train 1 perk line and become untouchable. I'll gladly hit shuffle vs a mongo rage enforcer and show you how many hits land.

[Notcrattey]

What's this have to do with MR?

Your entire reasoning behind keeping MR as is, is because it breaks through evades, it's purpose in other words.

Triples had the purpose of destroying low HP setups, which it did quite nicely! But those are being removed.


If you can't put 2 and 2 together I'll be quite concerned!

And besides, what's wrong with a 500-750 compromise? There's no reason for such extreme stat boosts on only one breed while the others are simply "ok" at best.

[Obtena]

Triples were not put in the game to destroy low HP setups. They did, but I'm certain that wasn't FC motivation for them, especailly given that they nerfed triples from 4 hits to 3 because they DID destroy low HP setups.

Their is no compromise really for MR. If it's suppose to be a tool to ignore evades, it would be stupid to lower it where it's on the edge of working or not.

[Notcrattey]

Their is no compromise really for MR. If it's suppose to be a tool to ignore evades, it would be stupid to lower it where it's on the edge of working or not.

But here's the kicker, why make it breed specific? Does it make sense to give everyone who rolled trox a tool to rip evades in half? It's like giving every solitus engi's NSD to rip us some reflects!

Wouldn't you agree it makes more sense to be profession specific?

[Obtena]

We don't train 1 perk line and become untouchable. I'll gladly hit shuffle vs a mongo rage enforcer and show you how many hits land.

That's nice. That would only show that MR is working as it's intended. Like I said before, the ONLY reason to put in a +1500 AAO perk is to allow people to ignore evades and it wasn't some coincidence, FC MEANT for that to happen. It's not like they randomly smashed some keys when making the perk and '+1500 AAO' was the result. Maybe if there was a secondary reason for MR in PVM, you might have a point, but there isn't. It's ONLY there for Atrox to hit Evaders.

[Obtena]

But here's the kicker, why make it breed specific? Does it make sense to give everyone who rolled trox a tool to rip evades in half? It's like giving every solitus engi's NSD to rip us some reflects!

Wouldn't you agree it makes more sense to be profession specific?

I would agree with that point, but that's a whole other thread. I don't like that MR is Atrox-only. For me, it's nonsense that Atrox MP's, Docs and NT's get screwed out of some perk options because of this.

[Notcrattey]

I would agree with that point, but that's a whole other thread.

Not necessarily, I say it's far too powerful to simply be breed specific; if they made a copy of the AI perkline for Enforcers only that gave 1500 AR it would make sense.

I'm not against a decent chunk of AR being given in a perk, but 1500 is too much considering it is a defense ripper, and not anyone should have access to that.

[Lisergia]

if they made a copy of the AI perkline for Shades only that gave 1500 AR it would make sense.

I fixed your lil typo.

[Hellrule]

If a +1500 aad breed perk made it ingame there would be rage of epic proportions.

A doctor in a semi evade setup could evade anything in game. No exceptions.

A majority of players do not play evade professiions which is the only reason they advocate such things. If things got switched you'd all understand.

[Obtena]

Not necessarily, I say it's far too powerful to simply be breed specific; if they made a copy of the AI perkline for Enforcers only that gave 1500 AR it would make sense.

I'm not against a decent chunk of AR being given in a perk, but 1500 is too much considering it is a defense ripper, and not anyone should have access to that.

That's a fundamental difference of positions. I happen to like things in the game that people tend to refer to as 'IWIN' buttons because those things happen to equalize some other more consistent strengths that many people grow to rely on in PVP, allowing them to ignore a class of PVPers when building their characaters and learning to 'deal with it', reducing the quality of the overall PVP experience in AO. MR is one of those, equalizing situations where the wrong mix of professions render hoards of evaders in a position of significant advantage even being uncompetitive. Triples and doubles are another, AS is as well. The list is endless. We have all seen instances where a toon does incredible and seemingly unreasonable things. That's where the 'iwin' buttons need to come in. As well, the randomness of the use of those tools makes PVP interesting, whether you are on the giving or recieving end.

Are those things bandaid fixes? Maybe, but in a game where many professions primary offsenisve and defensive options are limited to reliance on one well-supported element, they have to be. Until I start seeing 'trees' in AO like AoC has to give professions significant options to set themselves up vs. specific types of opponents, people will need AS, MR and triples, otherwise you get PVP like you see at the lower levels were only 2 or 3 setups rule the day and everyone else plays in the mud below.

I really hate these kinds of threads because in the end, the people in favour of them don't really see how removing all these 'IWIN' buttons without compensating removal with effective PVP tools really does reduce the breadth of the PVP variety. The problem isn't and never has been the iwin tools, it's the fact that those profs affected by them never had to consider how to handle those situations because of just how narrowly focused the range of good PVP setups was. MR opens up that field and now people realize they have a gap in their defenses. The approach to this thread should be "I don't have the tools to deal with MR", not "OMG NERF MR".

In the end, I'm not for dumbing down PVP by removing everything that people don't like. That's too 'simple' of a PVP model and it would be boring. The only people that advocate that kind of approach are people that don't want to be challenged or engaged in their PVP sessions. In all honesty, the fact that evade classes cry about MR being in-game only shows how much Mr is needed. Hitting an evade perk and knowing how to out-heal the incoming AS/SA for the next minute is not PVP. It's maybe some people like that mechanical and predictable "don't think" PVP, but that's a really superficial way to engage players in a game and get some satisfaction from playing it

[Obtena]

If a +1500 aad breed perk made it ingame there would be rage of epic proportions.

Funny statement. As a comparison, evade perks are comparable or more favourable for stats to MR but I don't see anyone raging about those.

TBH, that statement is just pur speculation on your part. I don't think people would rage in epic proportions. Only people like you would.

[Blackcradle]

Funny statement. As a comparison, evade perks are comparable or more favourable for stats to MR but I don't see anyone raging about those.

TBH, that statement is just pur speculation on your part. I don't think people would rage in epic proportions. Only people like you would.

And what how many of those (perks), besides dodge-the-blame released with MR, have been released since then? And I think people probably would, even though 1500 evades for 10 seconds wouldn't actually kill anyone.

That's a fundamental difference of positions. I happen to like things in the game that people tend to refer to as 'IWIN' buttons because those things happen to equalize some other more consistent strengths that many people grow to rely on in PVP, allowing them to ignore a class of PVPers when building their characaters and learning to 'deal with it', reducing the quality of the overall PVP experience in AO. MR is one of those, equalizing situations where the wrong mix of professions render hoards of evaders in a position of significant advantage even being uncompetitive. Triples and doubles are another, AS is as well. The list is endless. We have all seen instances where a toon does incredible and seemingly unreasonable things. That's where the 'iwin' buttons need to come in. As well, the randomness of the use of those tools makes PVP interesting, whether you are on the giving or recieving end.

No. PvPing shouldn't balance shouldnt be based around Iwin buttons, but the absence there-of. You keep claiming MR needs to exist to "balance things out" but what you're and several others won't admit is that MR is one of the very reasons things won't and/or can't be balanced out. And as long as it's around this while only remain the same.

I really hate these kinds of threads because in the end, the people in favour of them don't really see how removing all these 'IWIN' buttons without compensating removal with effective PVP tools really does reduce the breadth of the PVP variety. The problem isn't and never has been the iwin tools, it's the fact that those profs affected by them never had to consider how to handle those situations because of just how narrowly focused the range of good PVP setups was. MR opens up that field and now people realize they have a gap in their defenses. The approach to this thread should be "I don't have the tools to deal with MR", not "OMG NERF MR".

"Omg NERF MR" Happens when multiple people, of multiple professions and breeds realize they don't have the tools to with with MR. Of course you'd claim the problem there-in-lies with every single one of those professions, breeds and build... just not MR itself. This isn't the chicken and the egg... MR is the problem. And said professions that don't have the tools to deal with certain things, like MR, have a lot better hope of fixing, yes fixing massive differences in a single breed than any specific thing that their specific profession lacks to deal with that same specific breed perk. As you already pointed out AO has plenty of counters to deal with setups; so why keep one around that's such a glaring mistake, and is only available to 1 breed with little-to-no effort.

[Obtena]

Whether you think MR is the problem or not is your view based on what your bias is. That's not really relevant and certainly doesn't make it a truth. Maybe balance shouldn't be based around Iwin buttons ... that's a nice sentiment and perhaps many people's preference but I don't think the structure of the game really allows for whatever alternatives are needed to remove these kinds of effects. It's pretty clear that it's a tool that FC thinks is necessary. In fact, I see them supporting it's use by removing the side effects, showing they only think it needs to be better than it's current form. Even with rebalance from the information so far, I see where it's going to fulfill it's intended purpose and it's pretty clear why. The fact is that there aren't enough offensive pathways to allow many profs with ways to put fear into evaders wihtout forcing them into their most efficient evade killing setups. I think that the way MR is introduced is very balanced ... just as balanced or even more so that some of the evade perk stats. Now, the decision to make it breed specific, i'm in disagreement with but as a concept, I don't see the problem.

It's astounding to me that you can't draw that analogy: Evade perks are to defensive stats as MR is to offensive stats. Yet for some reason, MR is evil, evade perks are not? That's pretty much nonsense. If you advocate the removal of perks that overcome someones evades like MR, you do the same for evade perks that voercome someones attack rating like DOF and LImber, etc... And the prevalence of evade perks is way more widespread and common than MR. Like I said, the tools to deal with MR need to be there, just like MR is a tool to deal with evades. MR is no more OPed than the evades it's intend is to override.

[Lisergia]

Man, if you got the chance to kill us in 2 seconds, we should have the chance to kill you in 2 seconds, easy as that.
Sadly, I can already perk you, hence dont need MR and it still takes me a good minute or more to get an enf down.
And you even got tools to deal with getting perked to hell called coon and easy HP.
So why would that be any fair again?