Weapon requirements based on profession

[crattey]

Well firstly, MPs can do pretty damn good damage if they try, maybe your MP is just useless. Secondly I'd say keepers have a good support role but advs and MAs? MAs/Advs can provide a small amount of support but in no way can it compare to a keeper/trader/MP/crat/doc


Maybe with that logic you'd wanna add in shades and NTs to support profs as well since they can provide minor support.

Well, if engis get listed as support for their reflect buffs, I'd say MAs/advs get listed too for crit/morph/heals/auras/evades buffs etc. Similarly, crats only recently got a debuff better than UBT. Up to that point, we didn't add much other than mezzes/roots/snares which are mostly unusable or pointless to use. Sure, we have nice buffs, but so does everyone else, some far more critical than ours. Even shades bring something in the form of perk debuffs, albeit far more minor than what every other profession brings.

Again, if you use an engi's reflect aura as an excuse to warrant a downgrading of their damage output, I shudder to think how soldiers are going to end up, since they bring superior team support. They should have their guns taken away altogether, I'd imagine.

And sorry, but no, MPs don't bring good damage. They are mediocre at best, and probably have to work to even reach that status. And there is no lack of professions who bring both superior damage and better team buffs. I could be slacking off on my crat, half drunk and cybering all at once, and still OD an MP, use better debuffs on mobs and be superior a buff-totem.

[Xtremtech]

For me a support role is one that is strongly focussed on improving the ability of damage dealers to survive and kill, through means other than damage. In general, we tend to make that distinction, between damage dealers and support. Tanks could fit into that definition but that's really a separate role.

Team buffs that improve attack and defence are of course a major part of a support role, as is healing. But also debuffing the attack and defence stats of your opponent improves your team's ability to survive and kill. Crowd control is essentially a damage reduction tool and so also contributes in this way - with charming being a special case of crowd control that improves offence.

The reality is that the lines between direct offence and support roles in AO are rather blurry. Many theoretically primarily offensive professions in AO also have support tools. Classic examples are probably Advies and MAs with their clear healing prowess alongside offensive power. But also Soldiers with their reflect buffs and weapon OSBs etc. It's all too mixed up for support professions to have a stand out contribution.

If you look at a game like DDO, you'll find that the distinctions in roles are much more clear. There are classes/class combinations that are truly focussed on support and whose contribution really works as a true support role. Nearly all buffs and debuffs are given only to support classes with offence classes being almost entirely weapon/armour oriented. It's very difficult in DDO to create a character that is strong in offence and also has decent support role functionality. The trade-offs between one and the other are much harsher.

As a result of the confusion of offence and support tools in AO profession design templates, it's very difficult for those professions that perhaps should be delivering in a support role to be able to make a strong enough contribution to team survivability and killing power. The end result has been that over time, all suppport professions have been forced to try to be 'all-rounders' of some kind.... having to provide strong DPS as well as their suppport role tools... but balancing all-rounders is extremely difficult and it's not really practical to have so many professions be all-rounders. The way that AO PvP works also adds pressures to this.

It's a difficulty for AO that would be very difficult to fix, since the toolsets of so many professions are too deeply embedded I fear.

X

[alderwaran]

suppport professions .... having to provide strong DPS as well as their suppport role tools

i remember posts of people unwilling to team with mp's who only let their pets fight or "gimp" docs in ely with chalice eqipped. so yes, true.

[crattey]

i remember posts of people unwilling to team with mp's who only let their pets fight or "gimp" docs in ely with chalice eqipped. so yes, true.

Chalice can be justified at some levels, but MPs should always use both weapons and nukes, bar the occasional level where a higher level pet can off-set the use of damage weaponry in favour of items that can boost their nanoskills required to cast the pet.

Only profession who actually gets away with being a gimpy, lazy slacker is the reigning king of easymode PvM, crats.

[Camar]

MPs can do quite good damage, if you really really work for it (meaning pressing nukes every 2 secs, juggling perks, pets, nukes and specials).

But there are some profs that you can never beat even if you go all out (shades, crats, engies, MAs, Soldiers).

And all those bring something else to the team besides damage (ok, more and more damage for shades ). Healing of MPs is a joke, not even half to a third of a normal hit of the usual endgame mobs. Debuffs are not needed (occasional NSD maybe once a year), the rest of them is plain worse than other debuffs out there.

[Javafan]

Maybe not, but they already have ridiculously OP'd weapons, easy to equip at tl5.

You mean those 270sh axe wielding enforcer?

Last I checked an exact 270 axe typed axe means:

User Expansion sets & Alien Invasion and
User 1h Edged >= 1801 and
User Sneak attack >= 901 and
User Fast attack >= 901 and
User Brawl >= 1081 and
User Dimach >= 361

So enforcers can still equip a weapon +100 points higher in skill than doctors' pistol which is 1701. Also, dualwielding 270sh axes with a +250sh?

Also, you mean those enforcers with +2k AR as anything lower is quite shameful for a pvp enforcer... I wonder how many 174 doctors/MPs have +2k AR at 174 :-s

Even on my engie at 174, it meant a lot sacrifices to keep about 1900 AR on the pistol and it also meant switching a few setups to get the pistol done.

For the Sammich...

The only way an engie is going to OD an MA at TL5 is only if the MA does not have a setup that is on par with the engies.

Sure, if you consider a 170sh MA in a full predator armor versus a 255 CC, dchest, RBP engie with 247 burst imps in, the MA is going to feel bad. Get the MA in 255 CC, dchest, rbp, aruls and dmg rings, and the engie will be left well behind in terms of DD.

Make sure to check the sacrifice the a 220 engie will have to do to be on par or above an pvm MA in terms of damage. Like going from 17k pvm HP to 9k full out pvm dmg and dieing on agg if not careful - this means that the engie is mainly useful in terms of raiding and that would be it.

I mean the huge sacrifices an engie needs to make to get 11s FA with a fooking motherload of add dmg so they can do 15k FA each time regardless of mobs.

[Gatester]

Cool, lets duel a 170 Tigress MP v a 170 Enfo. Let me know how you get on.

In that regard, I would check PVM DPM. For other things, I would test how effectively a Tigress MP could kill each profession compared to enforcers, but enforcers have an OP toolset at tl5 so if they rival them, MP with tigress would also be OP.

Last PVP competition I was in at TL5, an MP came in 2nd place losing only to an enforcer. The fight lasted for several minutes. Do not discredit MP's as I can assure you they are very solid from title level 2 to 5, and are likely the most OP tl3 profession for pvp.

MPs, docs and traders have **** damage output. Considering neither traders or MPs have much to do but deal damage, I'd say it would warrant even better weaponry, with equally reasonable skill requirements. Docs, well, they have a rather clearly defined role.

And yet, all three of those professions can easily outdamage an enforcer at tl7 if they wanted to. MP toolset has pets, nukes, good damage perks, and a great weapon when paired with a crit setup. Trader has +24% crit chance and the highest crit damage ranged weapon since the Xan patch. Doctors rarely have the opportunity but they do have the capability of doing incredible damage.

Then again, advies, MAs and keepers have equally well-defined support roles, yet I don't see you lumping them in with the 'support' professions.

Perhaps all three are support professions, but in a broad sense you could claim every profession as a support prof. If I had a better term for "profession based not on weapon skills but given low skill, high quality weapons" I would use it.

Do we determine what professions recieve easy to use weapons based on their role then? If we invite a profession for their damage, then they need high skill requirement weapons. If we invite a profession for non-damage benefits, then they need low skill requirement weapons.

Enforcers are a tank profession only, not invited for their DD. Keepers are invited for nano regain, AAD boosts, Ward, or other auras but not for being a DD profession. Therefore, Honed Edge of Tarasque should have a requirement of 1801 two handed edge.

Engineers would be invited for a team for their DD potential far before an adventurer would. Therefore, adventurers should have 1701 requirement pistols and engineers should have 2001 requirement pistols.

If you do not need weapons, you get a low skill weapon. When you need a weapon, they make the requirements incredibly high.



This thread is fun, but I'm running out of ways to argue You know it is sad that the reason this thread can keep going is apparently something all of you are lacking.

[Esssch]

MP toolset has good damage perks

I lol'd

[howlin]

Enforcers are a tank profession only, not invited for their DD.

Wrong, enforcers are great DDers they just chose to go with the OPed HD, ND, AAD, evade setups.
Instead of "omg traders and MPs can OD me" lies and whines you should work on your enforcer.

[Ownsauce]

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=120329
+39 from a 245 Plunder tower
+33 from a bow contract

Trickle
+15 sense from contract
+12 agility from contract
+9 strength from contract

Given my numbers could be +/- 5 points, and I might be missing gear that would add more skill, that setup should be at 1701 Bow, 919 Fling Shot, and 1113 Aimed Shot. If the Ranger perkline was fully opened for MPs, it would be 1770 Bow.

100 Bow away, 31 Bow away if FC gives MP's the full perkline as they should. That is pretty close to a title level 7 weapon.

Just a couple things: There is no contract in game for bow that is +33, even a ql 300 one that isn't in game is +30, ql 250 sense contract (the highest ql in game) is +17, ql 250 strength contract is +15, and ql 250 agil contract is +15. With improvements to your setup, and all of the ql 250 contracts that I mentioned, you're still under 1700 bow.

As far as the reason why other professions get decent weapons for that is because they don't have any other means of DD really.

Engineers-> they're pet professions and at that low of a level, to take agg from your pet=complete and utter doom leaving it mostly of a pvp weapon that they STILL can't hit most profs with.

Docs-> can't hit anything in pvp with weapons and while they do add for decent mods on the weapons they are still useless considering that the % heal is upped on it and the regular CH completely heals them.

Crats-> Decent pet damage and decent nuke pistol does great with it...in pvm. Pvp, a TL 5 crat is a joke, not enough evades to be able to be a formidable opponent and not enough heals/absorbs to be able to do anything other than get destroyed and kite. Still unable to hit people with the pistol and only mods are stam and str-> more hp for higher caps.

As far as the other weapons you posted-> tigress and the abandonment of the xan; they are not possible at all to get on at TL 5 currently. At 190, yes, the tigress is but at those levels, I would assume the advy pistols would be able to get on as well. The abandonment of the xan wouldn't be able to get on at TL 5 because you need to get a WU with a 205+ Level req to even get into the zone to get the WU.

Just a suggestion though that I don't think anyone has suggested yet; Why not try a Ofab peregrine MK 6 ql 225 in your Right hand (http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=265059&ql=225) and a Premium Aero Borealis Corona in your left hand (http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=122633) for a extra quick AS recharge. Yes, you will be losing FA, but you'll probably be a capped AS recharge and higher damage with your other pistol (or so I would assume, I don't honestly know). Hopefully this is somethign that works-> I'm really just throwing things out as they have been ideas of my own.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I think there are QL 400 contracts in game?

[Ownsauce]

Nope, highest ever contract that was ever posted about was ql 300 and it's not ingame;highest ql in game is 250

[Mostadio]

I think there are QL 400 contracts in game?

Do you loot them from the CoH chest?

[Ellarisa]

15k FA isnt possible self with pistols, only with dshark
bigburger FA is usually 12-13k with a top of the line DD setup.
to cap recharge on a bigburger you need full CC, 3x ql 300 implant with FA in it and a high QL eoe.
Greetings,



Ellarisa

[-Klod-]

You mean those 270sh axe wielding enforcer?

No.

[Ciex]

He means SoW most likely that is good and in fact easy to get on. As far as 1he twinking goes for tl5 enfs, they are around 100 points short from ql 300 axes as they can get a bit over 1900 1he skill altho when it comes to dmg output few qls on ai weapons are hardly noticeable.

The only way an engie is going to OD an MA at TL5 is only if the MA does not have a setup that is on par with the engies.

Sure, if you consider a 170sh MA in a full predator armor versus a 255 CC, dchest, RBP engie with 247 burst imps in, the MA is going to feel bad. Get the MA in 255 CC, dchest, rbp, aruls and dmg rings, and the engie will be left well behind in terms of DD.

Nope. You can ask Kadjunga for a small dd contest with his lvl 150 AMEP engi if you want.

[Gatester]

I lol'd

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=252462 Projectile -4500 .. -6000
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226128 Radiation -2364 .. -4390
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226351 Damage type (-2862 .. -6024 + -2862 .. -6024)
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226248 Damage type -2693 .. -5669
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=252300 Melee -3500 .. -4500
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=275072 Chemical -505 .. -630 5 hits, 5s delay
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226138 Radiation -6277 .. -12857
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226145 Fire -2286 .. -5444

Yeah, I laughed when I posted these low damage perks too. This is just the ones that did 2500+ though and does not include any breed or general perks, should I add the rest and we can chuckle a bit more?

Wrong, enforcers are great DDers they just chose to go with the OPed HD, ND, AAD, evade setups.
Instead of "omg traders and MPs can OD me" lies and whines you should work on your enforcer.

You do make me laugh howlin I doubt everyone can appreciate you.

As far as the reason why other professions get decent weapons for that is because they don't have any other means of DD really.

Pets
DoTs
Nukes
Damage procs

My MP has a non-AS/non pvp weapon with a 300ish min damage range and it required about 1100 bow to equip. The ql300 has a 400-400(100) range and takes 1450 bow to equip I believe. The damage is just fine. At 220 a Tigress would be great for making my DD better, but at 190?

Engineers and crats do have crappy DD, let's move on.

We should also ignore the damage 3x DoTs+DoT procs cause on a single target, definately multiple targets.


Instead of "omg I cannot do DD without super weapons" lies and whines you should work on your toons.

[howlin]

You do make me laugh howlin I doubt everyone can appreciate you.

Glad to know that even when faced with the facts that prove you wrong you can still laugh.

The perk part of this post i will not comment, except for a - lolwhut?

[Ownsauce]

Pets
DoTs
Nukes
Damage procs

My MP has a non-AS/non pvp weapon with a 300ish min damage range and it required about 1100 bow to equip. The ql300 has a 400-400(100) range and takes 1450 bow to equip I believe. The damage is just fine. At 220 a Tigress would be great for making my DD better, but at 190?

Engineers and crats do have crappy DD, let's move on.

We should also ignore the damage 3x DoTs+DoT procs cause on a single target, definately multiple targets.


Instead of "omg I cannot do DD without super weapons" lies and whines you should work on your toons.

1.) Yes, your mp does have that weapon, but that doesn't mean that you do awesome DD because of it. Maybe if all you wanted to do is "Q" afk you would do somewhat ok, but that is by no means DD. MP nukes are borderline decent at TL 5 but above that, they are pretty laughable. They have pets that do decent damage, but anyone who's not AFK with auto attack on is gonna be able to OD them. These are the reasons why they have weapons such as the ones you posted, remember, 220 is not the same as 150 or 170 or what have you.

2.) You're right, 3 dots on a target+dot proc+weapons is pretty decent in terms of damage, but again, it's by no means DD. Yes, you'll probably be able to beat the people who aren't as well geared as you in a DD contest, but someone equally geared you have almost no chance. On top of that, keeping 3 dots+a dot proc constantly running on a target is pretty difficult I would assume. Being that I don't have any personal experience with playing this prof, I will just leave my assumption as is and not expand anymore on it.

3.) Nukes, lets face reality here. Anyone other than a NT has almost laughable nukes. Think about it gate, this is the nanos that your nuking profs in question have:

MP:
Metaing's Improved Mindquake-http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=270355

basically 1.2-2.4k damage every 2 seconds

Crat:
Improved Rule of One-http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=270250

1.5k-5ishk (depending if proc is up) ever 4.5ish secs

Yes they are decent for level 150. You are correct, but even at 150, they aren't going to win a prize for the damage they do.

Lets think about the other professions:
A well setup MA can do 5k+ crits at 150 with 50-60% crit rating (with flurry and proc running); a 150 enforcer can do 4.5k+ crits with SoW and 2ishk regular hits with fast attack, brawl and some decent perks; Melee adventurers are basically the same as enforcer except a lot harder to hit; Pistol/smg soldiers have roughly 20 sec FA recharge, decent DD perk line and capped Fling and burst recharges.

Would you think it fair that because a crat can get on dread pistol at TL 5, that a advy should be able to get on AS pistol? Or how about because engineers can get on AMEP, MA's should be able to get on Shen sticks. Would that be fair? The answer is no because those profs do not need it to do decent damage.

Without the weapons that you have listed, do you really think that any of those professions would help AT ALL in a battlefield situation other than mezzing, healing, or debuffing? And for that matter, would they ever want to be solo?

I mean this with all due respect Gate, but you're really just being a whiny little baby at this point because your OP prof isn't as OP as you would like it to be. I agree that ranged advys do need a little bit of love at TL 5, but to go so far as to say they're gimp because they don't have great weapons, you would have to be drunk.

These are most likely the reasons why these "support profs" have access to and are able to put them on. I'll say the big reason again:

Other profs mostly likely can't put on these higher weapons because they truly don't need them. Simply posting a list of weapons and exclaiming that because these profs have these weapons, my prof should have these weapons too and disregarding the real damage that said professions do at that level is silly.

Just to put this in perspective because atm, this isn't just things I'm pulling out of my butt:
I had/have a 150 MA
I have a 150 soldier (assault rifle even; not PVM DD setup)

On regular outings-> I easily OD AMEP engineers with full out setup including CC, 240ish imps and upgraded RBP

Crats are the only ones who even come close to my soldiers DPS, and tbh, assault rifle soldiers at 150 are on the low end of the spectrum in terms of DD.

Also: I have a 220 crat with dread pistol, with 1900 AR ( and this is more than a 150 crat can get) I do just about 1.1k usually about 1.1k-2.5k (if it's a crit) with the only weapon special on it as flingshot. The pet at that level sucks, doesn't even do 1000, and yes you can have 2 spiders but all in all, the damage is very insignificant.

notice that most of what I'm posting on and about with knowledge is in reference to TL 5, more specifically 150.

[Esssch]

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=252462 Projectile -4500 .. -6000
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226128 Radiation -2364 .. -4390
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226351 Damage type (-2862 .. -6024 + -2862 .. -6024)
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226248 Damage type -2693 .. -5669
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=252300 Melee -3500 .. -4500
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=275072 Chemical -505 .. -630 5 hits, 5s delay
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226138 Radiation -6277 .. -12857
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=226145 Fire -2286 .. -5444

Yeah, I laughed when I posted these low damage perks too. This is just the ones that did 2500+ though and does not include any breed or general perks, should I add the rest and we can chuckle a bit more?

Of those, only 2 are MP specific. 4 of them can't even be perked at TL5, which is what your huge argument is all about. And minus the OP pistol perks, they all have a recharge greater than a minute. Should we post the DD perks that soldiers or enfs get? Cause trust me, they don't even compare.