Who needs go up and who down survey ?

[Xtremtech]

We might have called it a draw if MPs did not also have SoZ and procs

But if an MP has SoZ, then he has very little in the way of offence at present, a problem NTs don't have. And a Bow/Def set-up leaves MPs with low AR, which makes the procs rather unreliable.

Still, fully perked MPs have more Def than NTs if you count everything except equipment in. NTs have +60 evade from Kinetic Mastery that levels off that base+buff. MPs have +100 Def from Channel Rage which levels off Dodge and Duck but puts them 100 ahead on Evade. Then Perseverance and Jealousy add another +90 Def across the board... so MPs have a better potential static Def excluding equipment: +190 Evade, +90 Duck/Dodge.

There are some clashes between potential AS/Def item slots though. I'm honestly not sure what the differential between an NT and a Bow MP setup would be on Def from equipment...but I reckon at best it would make them about equal on Duck/Dodge and still behind a chunk on Evade. More likely, the MP would be ahead on all 3.

Or have I missed something really important?

X

[Neon_1]

Or have I missed something really important?

X

Yes. It doesnt matter a squad, if MP has marginally better defense than an NT. NT is a way OP profession atm, and a far from "glass cannon". MP with shield is as much as a threat than an ant is to a tiger, and MP without shield can be killed fast by anyone.

[Xtremtech]

Aye, for a complete analysis you'd need to include the benefits of much better offence for NTs to give faster killing - which in itself drastically affects survivability, AoE debuffs and things like DtN and Nullity to provide multi-opponent defences etc... I don't think that the overall balance is defined at all by the def values.

X

[-LL-]

Yes. It doesnt matter a squad, if MP has marginally better defense than an NT. NT is a way OP profession atm, and a far from "glass cannon". MP with shield is as much as a threat than an ant is to a tiger, and MP without shield can be killed fast by anyone.

This. Also, NT has a more efficient toolset, while MPs have a totally broken one, not in line with what a MP is or should be and not in line with what is needed to compete at endgame.

[Shrubberyman]

Yes. It doesnt matter a squad, if MP has marginally better defense than an NT. NT is a way OP profession atm, and a far from "glass cannon". MP with shield is as much as a threat than an ant is to a tiger, and MP without shield can be killed fast by anyone.

You might have missed it in all that mess, but the arguement was not over are NTs OP or not, that's up to anyone's opinion (provided they did not read the basic news on NT balancing, but then indeed, wtf is that lol thread doing in this part of the forums) but over what was brought up to justify the claim NT need to go "down", namely our NR and evades. Both assertions have been badly beaten down their graves.

This. Also, NT has a more efficient toolset, while MPs have a totally broken one, not in line with what a MP is or should be and not in line with what is needed to compete at endgame.

MPs need fixing in several ways, but let's not go too far that way either, awesome PvP MPs do exist on both servers...

[-Klod-]

No, MPs are higher on the evade scale in "optimum" PvP setup.

They are higher (marginally) only when they have SS running on self and that's with blockers counted in, but this is not passive defense anymore.

MPs need fixing in several ways, but let's not go too far that way either, awesome PvP MPs do exist on both servers...

Sure, but their "awesomeness" depends on number of PvM toons currently running on board of BS. 1 average trader or pistol crat is enough to shove their "awesomeness" down their throat.

Our toolset is indeed totally broken and we are not exaggerating here.

[Shrubberyman]

They are higher (marginally) only when they have SS running on self and that's with blockers counted in, but this is not passive defense anymore.



Sure, but their "awesomeness" depends on number of PvM toons currently running on board of BS. 1 average trader or pistol crat is enough to shove their "awesomeness" down their throat.

Our toolset is indeed totally broken and we are not exaggerating here.

Well, Perskules' setup seem to place off oriented MPs already slightly higher, but yea, we're talking of a handful of points only. Anyway, there's no denying balance doc for MPs will have to take care of a few issues to be satisfying. But I think we can agree PvP MPs like Metphyst do have more than just a manner of success, and not just vs PvMers.

[Gatester]

I hate you... lol.

Title level 1-2 support, and ranged improvements at about title level 4 to 5.

Beyond that down down down down.

[howlin]

Guess we can all agree then that enforcers, doctors and advys deserve to be nerfed hard.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Guess we can all agree then that enforcers, doctors and advys deserve to be nerfed hard.

and Engies.

If engies weren't at the top of the PVP food chain, with every tool known in game, I'd say they're pretty balanced, except that they have every tool in game, and properly setup endgame engies don't lose, duels, in BS, in mass pvp.

If you don't lose, I think you deserve a nerf. But thats just me.

[Adva]

And what constitutes "every tool in game?"

And to the not dying part, sure, I'll give you duels because specials can't touch us and we can actually utilize our pets. But as far as mass pvp/BS goes, engis die quite often. The "OP'd defense" of engis doesn't last long at all against multiple opponents, regardless of profession.

[Mountaingoat]

and Engies.

Is a remod engi overpowered?

[Gatester]

Guess we can all agree then that enforcers, doctors and advys deserve to be nerfed hard.

You forgot NT's, the number one on the list of overpowered offense combinations.

Is a remod engi overpowered?

Is a 2h blunt enforcer overpowered?

[Obtena]

Guess we can all agree then that enforcers, doctors and advys deserve to be nerfed hard.

That wouldn't mean you are right of course.

[Provision]

Up:
1:Shade - Even trox, duh we have much worse defense
2:Agent - With Aimed Shot being nerfed and such, they're terrible defensively.

Down
1: Advy period
2: Fixer
3: Engineer's pets
4: Enforcer's AR/Specials all 5 of them?

[MassDebater]

Up:
1. MPs, I say varying length NSDs with lower % check the lower duration. 5 secs 80%, 10 secs 100% etc etc.
2. Keeper offense at the expense of some defense (really hate mashing on them for a good 5minutes)
3. Pets in general
4. Perks that do 100 damage endgame for all classes

Down
1. NTs defense OR Offense. Pick one
2. Ranged Advy as above
3. Pet class AS/offense IF pets are improved
4. HD when standing/fighting, no sitting down in fight.
5. 1hb/he working together
6. unlimited nano
7. any crippling debuff over 1minute

oh look they arent all classes, but that kinda covers it imo

[Esssch]

Up:
1. MPs, I say varying length NSDs with lower % check the lower duration. 5 secs 80%, 10 secs 100% etc etc.

eNSD is currently 15 secs 100%, should keep that imo, then 10 secs 90%, 5 secs 80%, something like that

[Plektrum]

Up:
1. MP (everything)
2. Trader (pvm)
3. Agent (pvm)

Down:
1. Adv (pvp)
2. NT (pvp)
3. Crat (pvm)

[Plektrum]

and Engies.

If engies weren't at the top of the PVP food chain, with every tool known in game, I'd say they're pretty balanced, except that they have every tool in game, and properly setup endgame engies don't lose, duels, in BS, in mass pvp.

If you don't lose, I think you deserve a nerf. But thats just me.

To say engis never die in BS is just wrong. Everyone dies at BS.

[Shrubberyman]

I think we need more threads in the Balance Discussion forum that don't take into account the Balance informations we already got... How couldn't they be appealing to the dev in search of insightful material...