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Thread: something that has always had me wondering...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    For a unrealistic PvP encounter, I got owned an unusual number of times by endgame 1hb/1he enforcers
    The reasons why, could be anyone's guess. However, since it infers an accusation of 1he/1hb enforcers being overpowered in pvp; I'd like to go on record here by saying, that gank setups that have stuns and dimach/sneak combos CAN be done with almost all the weapon lines available. The obvious red-headed stepchild is 2hb, but 2hb is not meant to operate in PVP the same way.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  2. #22
    Tbh, I liked your OP, even if I don't share all your views on NTs, but let's not pretend neither of us isn't even slightly biased concerning his main prof. Among other things, I agree on the stupidity of a system where more hp means less survivability, and disagree on the NT defence part, mostly because even though we have the option of taking less damage, we still get some (bar NS2) without any mean to heal it, and none of our defences come without a price (recharge, nanodrain, focus, refill times, Conceal debuff, root...).

    Imo, self buffed Enforcer vs self buffed NT fight (nowadays ofc) is one of those few 50/50 occurence that people would like to see more spread ingame.

    The If are big on each side :
    If the Enfo hasn't MotR ready and
    If the NT gets a headstart with CB and
    If the NT doesn't do a single mistake
    The NT will win

    If the NT can't root the enfo fast enough and
    If the Enfo isn't in Challenger recharge and
    If he's not missing his main perks from another fight
    The Enforcer will win.

    Hardly anything here I would call unrealistic.

    FC, through Genele, admitted 1hb/1he enfos as they are now are completely OP. No discussion here, they just are. NTs still get their chance, thanks to their enforcer-specific toolset, namely RE and SL roots, and thanks to CB. We're lucky, other professions don't have that kind of wild card.

    PS : Breeds should be left aside, you don't want NM coon and MR to come and pollute the debate.
    (side note : self buffed opi NT in endgame evade setup = about 2,9k evade cl+AAD. Let's add dwl = 3,2k. Are you sure that's not the kind of AR you can reach just with Chall?)
    Last edited by Shrubberyman; Sep 7th, 2010 at 10:54:43.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    (side note : self buffed opi NT in endgame evade setup = about 2,9k evade cl+AAD. Let's add dwl = 3,2k. Are you sure that's not the kind of AR you can reach just with Chall?)
    DwL will need at least 2 CBs or something to land on an enf anyway and considering enfs counter CB quite often that's a lot of time needed there while the enf can just run up to you and piano 12 damage perks/snare perks/stun perks/SA/FA/brawl.


    Even if you manage to root the enf, you'll be severely damaged or have depleted all your nano. So, if the enfs are using high ql FM stims and the enf resists (yes resist, not counter) a root you're pretty screwed.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    For a unrealistic PvP encounter, I got owned an unusual number of times by endgame 1hb/1he enforcers
    Maybe if you didn't put yourself into that position, you would have an easier time in PVP. That's OK, the re-balance will only enforce on PVPers what I can see as necessary for being successful outside of duels ... teaming.

    Aside from duels, the NT does have an advantage of range on enfos and enfos have resist advantage on NT's. I don't know why, but I don't see enough NT's taking advantage of that range. I can't recall how many times I have been rooted and the NT is standing just outside my melee range. GTFO to 20+ meters and start raping me FFS!!!! Maybe it's just reasonable to recognize that NT's vs. enfo encounters are on a very tipsy balance. Any small advantage to either can determine the outcome of those encounters.
    Last edited by Obtena; Sep 7th, 2010 at 16:36:03.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Maybe if you didn't put yourself into that position, you would have an easier time in PVP. That's OK, the re-balance will only enforce on PVPers what I can see as necessary for being successful outside of duels ... teaming.

    Aside from duels, the NT does have an advantage of range on enfos and enfos have resist advantage on NT's. I don't know why, but I don't see enough NT's taking advantage of that range. I can't recall how many times I have been rooted and the NT is standing just outside my melee range. GTFO to 20+ meters and start raping me FFS!!!! Maybe it's just reasonable to recognize that NT's vs. enfo encounters are on a very tipsy balance. Any small advantage to either can determine the outcome of those encounters.
    I mostly agree, I reckon I would just add that at same level of skill, gear and experience, NT has just the disadvantage that a single mistake (like for exemple a ill timed dd perk breaking the root while the NT is still in some recharge) can mean the end of him, while Enforcer overall have a bit more space for minor fumbling.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    Tbh, I liked your OP, even if I don't share all your views on NTs, but let's not pretend neither of us isn't even slightly biased concerning his main prof.
    Totally missed a few things I pointed out previously, however. Yes, my main is a 1hb/1he enforcer. I am not defending that aspect. What my wants are... is to get my tank back. If they choose to nerf enforcers ability to use that build, then so be it. What concerns me is the health nerf in conjunction with other nerfs, forcing my enforcer in the most typical of situations versus an alleged equal prof in PVP (the glass cannon) the gap between these two powerhouses is now falling apart. I want to know that the future of this scenario stays on somewhat equal footing. I also want to know, since they are handing out interesting new unique things (weaving for nt's, shields for keepers, zazen, etc etc) What are enforcer's getting? And even moreso, how will this new thing compensate for our future nerfs? I'm not talking about nerfing nt's. I am talking about shining some light on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    (side note : self buffed opi NT in endgame evade setup = about 2,9k evade cl+AAD. Let's add dwl = 3,2k. Are you sure that's not the kind of AR you can reach just with Chall?)
    Casting challenger costs me time. Need to close the distance first.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Sep 7th, 2010 at 18:06:05.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    I mostly agree, I reckon I would just add that at same level of skill, gear and experience, NT has just the disadvantage that a single mistake (like for exemple a ill timed dd perk breaking the root while the NT is still in some recharge) can mean the end of him, while Enforcer overall have a bit more space for minor fumbling.

    If you're not using your empowered roots, then that explains some things. :P
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    If you're not using your empowered roots, then that explains some things. :P
    Where does he say he's not?

  9. #29
    I might have missed something, but I obvisouly wasn't the only one ^^
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    Where does he say he's not?
    It was in the quote. The part where the root breaks. If the root breaks right away, chances are it not an empowered root.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    It was in the quote. The part where the root breaks. If the root breaks right away, chances are it not an empowered root.
    Empowered roots have a 26% chance to break on nano damage.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    Empowered roots have a 26% chance to break on nano damage.
    Which is not 100%, thus, not right away as Bubba said. Glad we are all speaking the same language here.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  13. #33
    I don't think we are. "...a ill timed dd perk breaking the root while the NT is still in some recharge..." becomes suddenly "my roots break right away :'("... I don't know if we speak the same language, but we definitely don't all understand it.




    Damn it, I was pretty happy with myself being all reasonable and all, but I forgot we are on 4rumz. Ok...
    "Enforcers are totally OP, if you don't feel as such, you just l2p lal nab pwnd."
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Which is not 100%, thus, not right away as Bubba said. Glad we are all speaking the same language here.

    You know in all my years... I don't think I have seen any perk that enforcers have that causes nano damage.

    By that do you mean just plain perk damage, or actual nanodamage like a nuke?
    Because if its a nuke, there are lots of ways to make use of time while an enf is rooted to not nuke him and yet still defeat him.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Which is not 100%, thus, not right away as Bubba said. Glad we are all speaking the same language here.
    Once again your understanding shines through in a blaze of glory. Jeez, take a 100 level statistics course for crying out loud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    You know in all my years... I don't think I have seen any perk that enforcers have that causes nano damage.

    By that do you mean just plain perk damage, or actual nanodamage like a nuke?
    Because if its a nuke, there are lots of ways to make use of time while an enf is rooted to not nuke him and yet still defeat him.
    All perks do nanodamage.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post

    All perks do nanodamage.
    Ahh. Still. Gotta be IN range to do that.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  17. #37
    Save to say, it takes longer to kill an enforcer as an NT. Even without GTH.
    Different damage types on perks give absorbs a huge advantage over damage mitigation to nanopool.
    You may have a point, but it's not as dramatic as you try to make it appear.

    Capping specials from weapons eat away your absorb on a single damage type, small perks and auto attack damage do more harm to the executing player as you.
    An NT's loughable absorb capability is blown away at the first shot, making every single hit eat his defense.
    Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
    Freshman Jefferey"Bailan2"Ginsberg - Retired
    Shareidah - First Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    it's written in the bible.
    Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
    A Producer's point of view

  18. #38
    I am going to go out on a limb here and say that its quite possible you have not optimized your nt's ability to mitigate damage. And, who said anything about GTH?

    I've seen enough duels by tl7 nt's to know that its not so easy to drain all that nano and nanoregain ability.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  19. #39
    "empowered roots haz zero chance to braek!!"

    "26% chance so it can never break on the first hit!"

    "NTs can kill enfs without using nukes!"

    Wow... Seriously... I'm afraid to comment on the intellect of some of these people :/

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Shrug, I've always played evades classes; fixer, MA, crat. If anything, I've gotten used to seeing Enforcers as little more than blobs that rush in, MR up, perk and run. Often fifty zones away before the last perk has even gone off. Or in other words, less complicated to play than even the three-button deluxe; soldiers.
    Especially during the years when reaver was instant death for most professions, enforcers were one of -the- gank professions. FC has further enabled this playstyle by basically giving you a few seconds of effective damage output and the tools to run around like an utter moron for the few minutes it takes to recharge.

    Similarly you saw tons of lolproc crats, 'lookatmydsharkiampwnzor' soldiers and NT trippletards when they had their FoTM moments.

    As for the emo, well, it's not really surprising. Lolproc crats went down in relative silence. As did bow MPs. Enforcers have had years to have gotten used to their position of dominance, hence the insane ****storm caused by even mentioning future nerfs. Same reason why shortly after LE soldiers threw their nickers in a bunch when they could no longer wtfpwn everyone by slapping on their noobstick and a few pieces of OFAB.

    Same as most of the keepers who are now frantically whining for nerfs to all ranged professions seem to have forgotten that at one time 'keepers are teh nurfest' was meant ironic, because they were the immortal PvP gods of AO.
    I have to say that this must be one of the best(and truthful) comments on these forums. Didnt expect this from Crattey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    As far as the hardest professions to take down in mass pvp? Martial Artists and Adventurers.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMekon View Post
    abnormal? explain how that is, cuz most of us can statistically show, how soldiers are one of the poorest pvp professions in terms of both offense and defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I'm curious. Do you Martial Artists actually plan to have a thread about professionals that doesn't end in a flamewar about equipment setups? I think you're about 0/3 now.

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