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Thread: something that has always had me wondering...

  1. #1

    something that has always had me wondering...

    We all learn that unless you have stupidly high health, then having anything greater than X total health versus Y capping special profession is a huge detriment to your overall survival in PVP.

    Yet with the case of damage to nano, nanotechnicians can now enjoy adding a good portion of their nano pool to their health when necessary. This places the 'glass cannon profession' relatively higher on the scale than quite a few others.

    Currently, nanotechnicians also enjoy the benefits of also being the class with the most nanodelta and nano regain abilities than any other class.

    Yet, the so called tankiest of professions - that being the enforcer, still has the detriment of being able to self a rather large amount of health, and anything higher than 6k nanopool is nearly a waste.

    Yet, due to PVP mechanics the way they are: Nanotechnicians still have far more damage mitigation (and nanomages with the NM Dreadloch device, and nullity spheres, and damage to nano) they can self (including hacked grafts/perks/etc) more so than Enforcers.

    Yet, on even ground... the glass cannon currently has more tactical advantages than the tankers do when pitted against each other.

    Coming further down the line, enforcers are currently documented to be receiving a health nerf in the form of trimmed nanolines.

    Call me strange, but am I the only one that thinks this is out of whack? Cocoons are already borked, and have a limit to their usefulness (again, versus capping specials) while soldiers and nanotechnicians have set durations on their main forms of damage mitigation.

    And now, my final thought on this?

    I realize we haven't seen the entire scope of the changes that are hitting us at a snails pace. I also have noted that each profession, is receiving a nice little shiny upgraded something to each of the ones they announce. Enforcers have sick AR at the moment (due to double AAO coding), and relatively may taper somewhat into the rebalance changes as they continue. However, enforcers are also loosing even more damage mitigation, forcing us in the advent of the health nerf, to be even more susceptible to damage, and even doubly in mass combat situations. In PVM our mitigation is mostly not even considered, because you can always add another healer or a debuffer to cover the loss.. but is that how its going to be intended? Enforcers are being forced - as the documentation continues - to be far more reliant on teaming, in order to be sucessfull in both PVM and PVP aspects.

    In almost every other game, Tanks have several other tools that are completely lost in AO. The ability to shield bash, or ignore 1 or 2 hits entirely, at will. The ability to charge into combat breaking normal speed rules. The ability to enhance team play with morale boosts. The ability to enter a terrifying frenzy of devastation, for a short period of time, leaving us drained for a similar amount of time, thereafter. Enforcers have abilities that can be simulated something like this, but in a very lame watered down way. What can we expect as a shiny new toy for my fave profession? Right now, I am seeing a pretty uncertain path. Interesting in some aspects, but I didn't roll and play a tl7 enforcer berzerker tank to be "interesting". I rolled one to be a metal clad powerhouse with a big spiky crusher in both hands, with an attitude that can flip raid bosses the finger while kicking them in the babymaker.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Sep 1st, 2010 at 20:46:11.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  2. #2
    NTs hardly have superior defenses in all cases. Against people without capping attacks, enforcers are still hard as hell to kill. And the bulk of enforcer def (AAD, health) is static or spammable (layers, rage, mango), whereas NTs are ****ed when their nano runs dry.

    As for the 'cannon' part, I'd say Enforcers fit that description rather well, too, considering they tend to drop big chunks of damage at once, before raging and legging it.

    In fact, I'd say they're both suffering from a severe lack in the 'glass' department.

    MOAR GLASS FUR ENFURZERS AND NTS
    Last edited by crattey; Sep 1st, 2010 at 20:29:13.

  3. #3
    I need to make a fraps of how fast my nano pool goes poof! (1 second sometimes to certain profs) under NBG, I know this doesn't happen at TL7 (400% more np for them), but until you get to 214+ you just can't group all NT's into the same bucket.

    anyhow I agree with how impossible it can seem sometimes to kill esp. a NM NT endgame NT. but once they start to run, if you can catch them, they go splat!

    man, if tl7 was as balanced as tl5 (let's just ignore how crazy 170 agents are for a second) AO would be a better place for all.

    ....srry, I'm one of those trolls stuck in pvp troll mode Bubba <3
    Last edited by RedWatr; Sep 1st, 2010 at 20:38:57.
    T O O N Z:
    Renamed (jeycihn) 220/30(so sexy, so Borealis...I miss it the most...still melee <3 thnx for all your help Scum!
    Giit 200/30 NM NT(THE most dangerous, and bitchy thing I ever created)
    Sixunder 158/21 NM Tra (158+SMG=Atomic bomb? Feather pillow? meh, depends on what mood she's in oO)
    Eightup 158/21 Opi Fix (perfect, maxed twink, definitive "FUN")
    Xerrrox 17X Opi Fix (GA4 fr00b...buff prostitute...reason to log in)
    Enjey 60/6 NM Eng (high maintenance OP'ness)
    Nanimated New NM Agent (no patience for it...sigh)
    Somethiing 200 Atrox Sold (potential x1k...not nearly enough "give a f*ck")
    P A R A D I S E ~&~ P A R A S I T E ~&~ B R O K E N ~&~ CCI ~&~ NOTHING PERSONAL

  4. #4
    Once enfs start to lose HP while spewing out its alpha, then I would start to worry. And anyways, enfs have pretty hefty HD, absorbs and actual HP healing nanos (and perks), so...
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  5. #5
    @ crattey, are you talking a endgame enforcer will full CC and alphas in? Or pretty much any enforcer on BS? Because I have been at both, and realize that not all enforcers are created equal. I thought Rage would get nerfed in a cool way. Instead, its just the same garbage under a different smell. I have never supported the idea that all enfs should be able to kill everyone 100% of the time in less than 10 seconds, but I will defend our ability to be 'tanks'.

    @ giit, curently, ofc PVP is way crazy atm. I don't think i've had my heart set on it since even LE came out. Yet, my thoughts are on 'what is to come', not 'how crappy is it right now' Because that would just be redundant. :P

    @ Klod: What makes enforcers seem larger then they really are is how they take up space. Seeing an enforcer running directly at you from a mile away isn't scary. It's what they do when they get up on top of you from outta nowhere that makes them scary. Most of the people who say "AMGWTFNERF" are usually the unobservant crowd that wasn't paying attention to their 6.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Sep 1st, 2010 at 20:55:02.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    @ crattey, are you talking a endgame enforcer will full CC and alphas in? Or pretty much any enforcer on BS? Because I have been at both, and realize that not all enforcers are created equal.
    Yes. Gimpy 210 enfs in OFAB aren't generally my biggest concern. Nor is any gimpy 210, for that matter. Bar NTs, obviously. Not much sense in discussing any topic regarding balance, really, without assuming you're both talking about people who've maximized their setup. If not, you might as well ask me if I mean 1hb/1he enfos or shotgun enfos*







    *Who need to be nerfed, btw.
    Last edited by crattey; Sep 1st, 2010 at 20:57:31.

  7. #7
    You know whats ironic? I have a 1hb/1he enforcer too, and I had my mind set that it would be a "damage dealing berzerker" over a ganktastic sack of piss that most 1hb/1he have evolved to since the line was dreamed up.

    BTW, I hate rebalance forums. This place reeks of hate, bitterness, and emo cutters.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  8. #8
    Shrug, I've always played evades classes; fixer, MA, crat. If anything, I've gotten used to seeing Enforcers as little more than blobs that rush in, MR up, perk and run. Often fifty zones away before the last perk has even gone off. Or in other words, less complicated to play than even the three-button deluxe; soldiers.
    Especially during the years when reaver was instant death for most professions, enforcers were one of -the- gank professions. FC has further enabled this playstyle by basically giving you a few seconds of effective damage output and the tools to run around like an utter moron for the few minutes it takes to recharge.

    Similarly you saw tons of lolproc crats, 'lookatmydsharkiampwnzor' soldiers and NT trippletards when they had their FoTM moments.

    As for the emo, well, it's not really surprising. Lolproc crats went down in relative silence. As did bow MPs. Enforcers have had years to have gotten used to their position of dominance, hence the insane ****storm caused by even mentioning future nerfs. Same reason why shortly after LE soldiers threw their nickers in a bunch when they could no longer wtfpwn everyone by slapping on their noobstick and a few pieces of OFAB.

    Same as most of the keepers who are now frantically whining for nerfs to all ranged professions seem to have forgotten that at one time 'keepers are teh nurfest' was meant ironic, because they were the immortal PvP gods of AO.
    Last edited by crattey; Sep 1st, 2010 at 21:15:37.

  9. #9
    Thats what enforcers have evolved to be, because that was how broken its been. I've seen turd after turd and honestly nothing thats been released since LE has blown my skirt up, with the exception of the design of the collector (serious! love the instance, hate the loot tho). And its been alot like what you just described.

    I am really looking forward to rebalance for several reasons. 1. I want my tank back on track. and 2. I want to see all the people that hugged their brokenness to emorage quit all at once when they realize order has been established with WW2 russian efficiency. lol

    And yes, im bitter too.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWatr View Post
    I need to make a fraps of how fast my nano pool goes poof! (1 second sometimes to certain profs) under NBG, I know this doesn't happen at TL7 (400% more np for them), but until you get to 214+ you just can't group all NT's into the same bucket.

    anyhow I agree with how impossible it can seem sometimes to kill esp. a NM NT endgame NT. but once they start to run, if you can catch them, they go splat!

    man, if tl7 was as balanced as tl5 (let's just ignore how crazy 170 agents are for a second) AO would be a better place for all.

    ....srry, I'm one of those trolls stuck in pvp troll mode Bubba <3
    I'll QFT this.

    I agree tiig. I think that TL5 is a lot more balanced. A lot of the problems stem though from WAY WAY overinflated stat modifiers on everythign from armour to hud items.

  11. #11
    Good post bubba, I agree and Ill bump it.
    Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Because we said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This nano blocks CH. This is intended.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Not much sense in discussing any topic regarding balance, really, without assuming you're both talking about people who've maximized their setup. If not, you might as well ask me if I mean 1hb/1he enfos or shotgun enfos*
    That's a poor assumption, considering the re-balancing affects everyone, and not 'everyone' is in that maximized setup. FC isn't not looking at that 'maximized' setup and asking themselves what needs to get nerfed or boosted and clearly that approach of 'maximized setup' analysis is nonsense. It ignores most of the people playing AO.

    I agree with Bubba but realize we aren't playing a game with 4 professions. There are 15 profs all competing for their unique position in the 'DPS/Healer/Support' triangle that forms the fundamentals for most RPG's.

    Right now, enfos are fast shades with active aggro holding tools. Kinda sad. What's worse is that FC put themselves in a position where professions have a small number of truly unique tools (nanos) and share the rest. It's worse for equipment, almost non-existent for armor and a complete wash in stats/abilities. Personally, I think if FC would dedicate the code support to give each profession 2-3 unique actions (My enfo should have a charge, grapple and an AR boost action), you could feel a bit more like you are an enfo.
    Last edited by Obtena; Sep 2nd, 2010 at 21:25:21.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    Yet, due to PVP mechanics the way they are: Nanotechnicians still have far more damage mitigation (and nanomages with the NM Dreadloch device, and nullity spheres
    ...stop there.

    An NT using Nullity sphere can't use LE nukes, and is therefore stuck using nukes that haven't been changed since SL was introduced.

    I don't see iBehe locking you out of weapons more recently popular than murder mauls, so I think you're missing something here...

  14. #14
    Please learn to survive enforcer alphas.

    It is not difficult.

    NT's are infact pretty tanky in PVP. Is this wrong? Nah, not reallyyy.
    A lot of good NT's use NS2. Like I said about 6 years ago, IU (esp with dm now) is very good DPS in PVP making this a very viable teamming (and duel) build.
    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkstaah View Post
    Please learn to survive enforcer alphas.

    It is not difficult.

    NT's are infact pretty tanky in PVP. Is this wrong? Nah, not reallyyy.
    A lot of good NT's use NS2. Like I said about 6 years ago, IU (esp with dm now) is very good DPS in PVP making this a very viable teamming (and duel) build.
    I saw agents go NT and cast NS2..and be petitioned for "wtf he takes no damage".

    So yes. I agree with you on that.

  16. #16
    1 on 1 and blow for blow, an enforcer can drop an NT faster than the NT can drop him. FACT.
    R.I.P. AO
    Quote Originally Posted by quitter187 View Post

  17. #17
    ^^ Problem is that isn't a realistic PVP encounter.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  18. #18
    For a unrealistic PvP encounter, I got owned an unusual number of times by endgame 1hb/1he enforcers
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    ^^ Problem is that isn't a realistic PVP encounter.
    I don't see anything realistic about the original poster's post. This is why I brought out the facts.
    R.I.P. AO
    Quote Originally Posted by quitter187 View Post

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaloot View Post
    I don't see anything realistic about the original poster's post. This is why I brought out the facts.
    Nope. Facts are subjective at this point, that's why I wrote the essay the way I did.
    You posted something that is unrealistic, because you're assuming that 1... the enforcer is within melee range, and 2... whether or not the nt is reacting to the presence of enforcer.

    In BS and mass pvp, its always a coin toss. Usually, its whomever has the jump on the other, and is prepared to deal it out.

    On equal footing, and on open ground... the nt starts with the advantage. That advantage is enough to rob an enforcer of pretty much his entire battle. The enforcer needs to get within melee range in a time allotted, prolly attempt to resist a nano that is inc... and then the random chance of a brawl stun, or a 1hb perk stun. If my AR procs are up within the 3 seconds this has done down, i'd count myself lucky. I've met a couple of well geared NT's that I couldn't perk either unless I had AR procs up (which takes time....)

    The nt, needs none of that... and one root. Back away out of melee range.... and debuff and kill at will.

    Life expectancy of the enforcer in question is counted in seconds. Meanwhile... the good nt, is using far more tactics than the usualy debuff double double dead. A smart nt doesn't always rely on those. If the Enforcer manages to achieve everything it can, within alloted time, then yeah its a win, sure. But, thats quite a few ifs... and then there is in the given situation of running defenses.. the nanomage NT has quite a bit of mitigation available. Meanwhile, the list that enforcers have available, is not nearly as effective in reverse.

    And, then lets talk numbers.

    Given the same amount of graft buffing, whats the total health + damage mitigation that a fully twinked CC enf can get (gankers dont wear CM), and then compare the same number of NT health + damage mitigation. Conparable? Could be. I realize that one variable will be relative attack speed. It should be tested a bit. However, one empowered root takes away pretty much of what the enforcer would have. I'd probably have to ask someone who knows the numbers on the NT side to make a decent comparison. For that i'd need volunteers.

    In most games like the ones I described... generally both tanks and damage casters are somewhat equal. Currently its up in the air, and is subject to change a bit. The question really remains is.. how should it be changed?
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Sep 7th, 2010 at 09:13:08.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

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