Null Space Disruptor

[Djiax]

In a skill based game everything has a countermeasure:
Damage <-> Heals
DOTs <-> HOTs
Shields <-> Shield rippers/drain
Evades <-> skill <-> skill drains
Nano Formulas <-> NR

You know Soldiers have a nano against healing and HOTs right?
But no one should have a nano against shields?

How does that fit into a forum called "Balance Discussion"?

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

Over simplified and incorrect comparaison of offensive vs defensive tools. There is no conclusion you can get from those 5 comparaisons, at all.

In a forum called "balance discussion", you remove/rework both NSD AND solja's heal blocker, and i don't think most of the big name of the soldier community disagree with that.

[Armus]

Over simplified and incorrect comparaison of offensive vs defensive tools. There is no conclusion you can get from those 5 comparaisons, at all.

In a forum called "balance discussion", you remove/rework both NSD AND solja's heal blocker, and i don't think most of the big name of the soldier community disagree with that.

/agree

I don't like remedy inhibitor myself. First of all because it's a bit too good when in use in a 2 or more:1 situation vs the agent.

Secondly it's not at all as good as ppl think 1 vs 1. With ubt on you as a soldier you have time for maybe one shot. Then you need to try to AMS or you will be a gonner. But alot of ppl seem to believe it's super easy to use 24/7!

I'd rather be without.


As for general balance and NSD and AMS.. Well I think we can agree that reflects are a soldiers only defence. Soldiers don't have evades that do anything and they have sucky nr, next to no heals and no absorbs (unless you are NM) or anything. Also no root resists or blockers or anything outside general stuff. It should be noted that soldiers do have high hp. But against big specials that's a disadvantage almost as often as an advantage in pvp.

We also don't have great alpha power compared to some other professions. especially not vs evaders.

Now.. lets get back to AMS.

NCU crash
NSD
ENSD
Dominates
Drains

Nanodrains

Those are things that completely prevent that only defence a soldier has. Some are instant and nearly 100% effective. Some take a little time.

NCU crash means that as a soldier you can't use RI vs a fixer. Because if you don't ams at once you will be at 30% hp from the fixer alpha, and if he lands his nano on you, you will be dead before you are able to cast ams/tms.

NSD/ENSD and dominates.
These ofcourse land very very very well on a soldier due to craptastic NR and they either completely disable the soldier from using his defence or in the case of dominates nerfs it to using a lower def,

Drains.. Also extremely good landrate. One drain and you're using old RK nanos.

So.. When ppl are asking for the balancing of NSD vs soldiers they aren't at all talking about god mode or anything like that. AMS is still easily prevented by a number of classes. And I haven't even mentioned stuff like stuns or init debuffs here. Or the fact that ams is easily interrupted if debuffed. Something that those who have their main defences in perks never ever have to worry about.

Perhaps perk execution should also be subject to interruption?

Anyhow.. something else that ppl don't seem to understand. When NSD lands on a soldier it increases the damage the soldier takes by a factor of 3,7 assuming 87% reflect on the soldier from the start.

This leaves the soldier with 39% reflects and that means that he will drop like a rock inside a few seconds.

That is hardly fair or balanced, is it?

Yes I'm awaer that for instance a doc can have his heals reduced by a respectable ammount (no, not 100% with nsd, they have perk heals as well as well as nsd removers). However there is no nano with such a high land rate that will reduce a docs defence, ie healing to the effectiveness level of an NSD'd soldier, is there? Especially not an AOE version!

I could live with something that is decently hard to land, should take a few tries to land on gimpy soldier NR and it should not more than double the damage I take. So say -13% reflects. That leaves the soldier at 74%.

Which means the engi will still usually win 1 vs 1 due to his blockers.
But an smg soldier will stand a fair chance. Unlike today when it's a total slaughter 99.9% of the time.

That's my thoughts on the subject.

[-Klod-]

NSD/ENSD and dominates.
These ofcourse land very very very well on a soldier due to craptastic NR and they either completely disable the soldier from using his defence or in the case of dominates nerfs it to using a lower def,

You have a level 220 MP. We all know how this really "works" against soldiers. Please don't make yourself look dumb when we both know that you aren't.

[howlin]

Now.. lets get back to AMS.

NCU crash
NSD
ENSD
Dominates
Drains

Nanodrains

Sounds like playing an agent, only much easier.

[Armus]

You have a level 220 MP. We all know how this really "works" against soldiers. Please don't make yourself look dumb when we both know that you aren't.

I said that a soldiers AMS is easily disabled. NOT that the MP will be able to kill the soldier easily.

Hello stupid. Start thinking before you type or kindly shut up.

[Armus]

Sounds like playing an agent, only much easier.

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to

[ArienSky]

I don't like remedy inhibitor myself. First of all because it's a bit too good when in use in a 2 or more:1 situation vs the agent.

NCU crash
NSD
ENSD
Dominates
Drains

Nanodrains

Those are things that completely prevent that only defence a soldier has. Some are instant and nearly 100% effective. Some take a little time.

Very well structured post.

I can only agree that an overall balancing is needed.
But for that you also need to think of balancing of other professions, not just Soldier.

Let us take the example Doctor

RI
Init debuffs
Nanocost Increasers
Dominates
Nanodrains

They have a long list too.
Soldiers are not alone.

You could do the same with Agents.
NTs were supposed to be on that list also


The principle being "Glass Cannon" or "Min/Max".
Very good at something, but vulnerable at something else.

Engies are masters of shields and pets, but if you go after the person, there is little offence.

I agree that a long list of things that disables a profession is not that fun.
But on the other hand there should not be a BEST profession, but a choice. Not just on playstyle, but that it is hard to do a lot of damage (you get agro and you then need to defend yourself or die), but easier to survive, but do less damage.

If the top damage dealer also is invulnerable (almost) for a majority of the time, then where is the fun?
Sure Adventurers have healing, Soldiers do not (worth speaking of).
But it is balancing with the increased damage and passive defences.

NTs have 19 sec of invulnerability.
I think that is fun, because it is a panic button that will save your behind for a short while. It makes PVM and PVP more fun.

I would not mind a 20 sec invulnerability nano to soldiers, that could not be foiled with another nano.
But then Soldiers would just be weapon NTs. I like that there are a difference.

and NTs.. you can disable them with drains too..
they work on all professions, so I do not see the point in mentioning them as a specific Soldier threat.
Nano users can be foiled with nano-drains.


There are a lot of professions I do not mention, it is because I have way less experience with those.
But from those mentioned, I would not say that Soldier is especially bad off in the balancing. More in the middle.

If the Soldiers get an easier time (and I don't think NSD-removal is a solution) then the bar should be moved for all professions.

As stated I like the idea of counter-measures.
Strong professions should have more than weak.

In my opinion FA alone should qualify for having weakness.
Just as AS should.

I would like the balance to be in IP costs and NCU costs being adjusted, so we have a choice, rather than delete stuff.

If it was to me, you would have unlimited free FULL IP resets..
BUT an Engineer could -either- go for shield/blocker setup -or- bot setup.
-NOT- both.

Soldiers in the same way could go for AMS/TMS and less damage, -or- full damage and no AMS/TMS.

The same with doctors and every other profession.
That way Nanomages could shine again: giving a difference in archiving nanoskills (eg. Docs.) but being fragile.

NSD should be there as a countermeasure.
The NCU and nanoskills can be discussed, but not "there should be no countermeasure to a 1½ min invulnerability"

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

[-Klod-]

I said that a soldiers AMS is easily disabled. NOT that the MP will be able to kill the soldier easily.

I didn't say anything about ease of killing or whatnot. The fact is, NSD and/or dominate(s) DOES NOT disable AMS.

They can only prevent soldier to cast those (dominates only force them to use lower version - like 2% less reflect will help MP much ), which is highly unlikely to happen, because both have longer cast time then AMS itself and there's very high possibility that you will run into soldier with AMS up, before you have a chance to cast these.

Hello stupid. Start thinking before you type or kindly shut up.

Yeah, please do.

[howlin]

I said that a soldiers AMS is easily disabled. NOT that the MP will be able to kill the soldier easily.

Hello stupid. Start thinking before you type or kindly shut up.

MP cannot disable your AMS.

[Manicmouse]

MP cannot disable your AMS.

Don't take everything so literally >.<

MPs disable the casting of AMS as we all know.

[-Klod-]

MPs disable the casting of AMS as we all know.

Yeah, in theory. Practice is one wholly different story.

[corinthians]

A nerf would make killing General Kronillis that much more unfun, leave it as is.

[Xtremtech]

TL;DR...

But would it be an option to make Null Space line a part of the Reflects line and have it just overwrite stuff from RRFE down, so that it didn't affect TMS/AMS.

That way it would still have effect on most targets but wouldn't act like a nemesis nano on soldiers....

Just a thought that popped into my head. Not getting involved in the argument really.

X

[Armus]

Actually if the entry level life forms in this thread (you know who you are) had cared to actually read my original post I clearly say that NSD, as in mp nsd PREVENTS AMS, not disables it.

The engi variety of NSD does disable it though

[Armus]

Very well structured post.

I can only agree that an overall balancing is needed.
But for that you also need to think of balancing of other professions, not just Soldier.

Let us take the example Doctor

RI
Init debuffs
Nanocost Increasers
Dominates
Nanodrains

They have a long list too.
Soldiers are not alone.

The major difference that you forgot is that an end game doc has around 2500 NR. Many pvp docs also use nr1 which is viable for them and that means 2800 ish NR.

An end game soldier sits at 1850 ish NR. The difference in land rate is massive. Yes, a soldier can go nr1 also. But unlike the doc he has to sacrifice much of his reflects, heal delta and attack rating. And he will still have too low NR.

Then on top of that add that docs have 2 NSD removers. Where are my engi nsd removers?

NSD should be there as a countermeasure.
The NCU and nanoskills can be discussed, but not "there should be no countermeasure to a 1½ min invulnerability"
Kind Regards
-Ariensky

I'm not against NSD doing "something" to my defence. But a nano that has 85%+ land rate that renders the only defence a soldier has into something that doesn't make a difference is not right.

Sure, double the amt of dmg we take under AMS if NSD is casted on us. But don't quadruple it.

[-Klod-]

Actually if the entry level life forms in this thread (you know who you are) had cared to actually read my original post I clearly say that NSD, as in mp nsd PREVENTS AMS, not disables it.

Talking about NSD (MP one) as a viable tool to disable soldier's AMS is complete crap, given the fact that in MP Vs Soldier situation, MP is either in recharge (blockers), or AMS is up more quickly then MP has chance to land NSD (which is not instacast, unless you go with eNSD, in which case MP will die much faster to soldier then soldier will die to a MP, even without AMS).

MPs are nowhere close to "one more soldier's nemesis profession", which you are trying to imply.

[Insane666]

You have a level 220 MP. We all know how this really "works" against soldiers. Please don't make yourself look dumb when we both know that you aren't.

actually vs 90% of soldiers it works really well, and even with zset on such a sol wont survive too long vs my mp, assumming no1 will be healing him ofc and AMS wasnt up already


ofc for tigress mps its a diff case, but zset ones can afford not to be in perma recharge from SS wich makes nsding any soldier on sight pretty easy

[erozc]

So... Give soldiers a perk line of say, 6 SL perks that gives one NSD remover at 6th perk on 2 minute recharge, and some negligible bonuses to something like inits?

[-Klod-]

actually vs 90% of soldiers it works really well, and even with zset on such a sol wont survive too long vs my mp, assumming no1 will be healing him ofc and AMS wasnt up already

Looks like those mythical 90% of soldiers have their AO client hacked. MP pets are killable if you use regular client.

Can you move to the facts and away from fiction, please?

[Insane666]

Looks like those mythical 90% of soldiers have their AO client hacked. MP pets are killable if you use regular client.

Can you move to the facts and away from fiction, please?

facts are 90% of soldiers dont think as far as "kill his pets"

and assuming he wasnt amsed before i managed to nsd, he wont survive long enuff to kill my rihwen, and as zset mp you dont need heal pet always up to survive


im not claiming zset mp is some kind of soldiers nemezis, but a well timed nsd/ensd on a not amsed soldier will f*ck him up royally

if he is already amsed tho, that puts you in a bad spot ofc, assuming he is of the thinkin kind of sols he will start off with your rihwen, wich should be down before his ams wears off, leaving you this time royally screwed over ( at least as much to force you to retreat and find a lone place to recast pets ) - but its same with allmost any other prof, they can kill your pets and make you close to harmless,,,