ALL Melee Users Need To Catch Up To Their Target

[Kimarzt]

...I disagree with the surprising 2010 trend which consist for melee users to consider they should always be in range of their opponent no matter what...

It's just that I'm seeing Zazen, Clarion Call, and now whatever for the Enf, and this tells me that FC is worried that their balance changes to runspeed and other things will nerf melee classes, so they're adding these new things to balance it out again. What I'm worried about is that the way they're balancing will leave some people behind. Many classes have been successful melee users in the past, and every melee user should be considered in balances to keep them successful in the future.

[Genie]

The whining from the melee community is starting to rival that of NT and trader community back in the day. We all know what happened then. To balance things out, the ranged community also needs to make insane claims that have no roots in reality.

[Jekonam]

As an owner of tl7 melee and ranged professions its quite easy for me to say that melee is in clear disadvantage in pvp. Anarchy's "mechanics" (runspeed, range, toolsets) are heavily favouring ranged professions in most of the situations where pvp occurs.

We should discuss how to shorten the gap. I hate to say it, but you all know why pvp is more balanced in the most popular MMORPG's. Its because there is no significant gaps between these two categories.

Lets take WoW (The hate card. I don't personally like the game but its the best possible example), every melee class has a way to catch up ranged profession. A special ability that has reasonable cooldown. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in Anarchy if it is implemented correctly and in reasonable manner.

Of course majority of ranged professions owners would not buy this kind of thing. You can't actually create real balance, right

[bitnykk]

what we could do is that melee users have a new ranged special to throw their weapons (2 times for dualers). but in this case it unequips the weapon instantly ...

[Insane666]

As an owner of tl7 melee and ranged professions its quite easy for me to say that melee is in clear disadvantage in pvp. Anarchy's "mechanics" (runspeed, range, toolsets) are heavily favouring ranged professions in most of the situations where pvp occurs.

We should discuss how to shorten the gap. I hate to say it, but you all know why pvp is more balanced in the most popular MMORPG's. Its because there is no significant gaps between these two categories.

Lets take WoW (The hate card. I don't personally like the game but its the best possible example), every melee class has a way to catch up ranged profession. A special ability that has reasonable cooldown. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in Anarchy if it is implemented correctly and in reasonable manner.

Of course majority of ranged professions owners would not buy this kind of thing. You can't actually create real balance, right

as long as we would tone down dmg on meele in general sure, becouse right now meeles have access to better dmg in order to compensate for the kite/synch issues in pvp

[Weltall]

as long as we would tone down dmg on meele in general sure, becouse right now meeles have access to better dmg in order to compensate for the kite/synch issues in pvp

Wow you sure got a lotta melee toons in your sig there

[howlin]

as long as we would tone down dmg on meele in general sure, becouse right now meeles have access to better dmg in order to compensate for the kite/synch issues in pvp

This. I want my ranged toons to shoot/nuke while running also.

[Gatester]

as long as we would tone down dmg on meele in general sure, becouse right now meeles have access to better dmg in order to compensate for the kite/synch issues in pvp

Ranged damage pale in comparison to melee damage. Let's just look at the comparison:

Melee damage over 10 seconds > ranged damage over 10 seconds...obviously melee is better than ranged.

Melee damage over 11 seconds < ranged damage over 11 seconds...wait, did someone's capping specials just refresh?

Melee damage over 22 seconds <<<< ranged damage over 22 seconds...ok where are my perks? Did those ranged guys just refresh their capping specials again? That burst special is almost refreshed a 3rd time too!

Melee damage over 33 seconds <<< ranged damage over 33 seconds...well at least my shades perks are up again, hopefully they land this time with my non-atrox shade.

Melee damage over 44 seconds <<<<<<< ranged damage over 44 seconds...OH SNAP, sneak attack bish, but if I use it now I can't use it in my alpha Ok i'll save it for another 16 seconds and then I'm kicking your ass.

Need I go on? Aimed shot, Full auto, Burst are greater than melee damage over time, and kiting only widens that gap.

This. I want my ranged toons to shoot/nuke while running also.

Sorry, you have to stop for a split second before taking 90% of a players health from 35m away




What you guys are not paying attention to is:

Name		V.P.	BM	MM	MC	TS	PM	SI	QL	LvL	NCU	Nano	Atc.	Atc cap.	Rech.	Cool.
	Clarion Call	yes					117		24		8	54	1		2	30
	100% PM vs 50% NR												sec		sec	sec

Vp	Bm	Mm	Mc	Ts	Pm	Si	Lvl	Ncu	Ql	Nano	Atc	Cap	Recharge	Cooldown
Greater Prolong Encounter
				571	754			47	152	643	2		1	          10
											sec		sec

FC is giving melee an ability to get in range of a player once every 30 seconds, ranged single CC tools have a 10 second cooldown. What I also do not see is a shared cooldown for snares as well, which at the very least FC needs to limit the use of root and snare chaining on a single target.

2 times a minute melee gets in range of you (at the most so far), 6 times a minute CC professions stop melee professions. Stop whining about finally having to deal with a melee opponent besides enforcers.

[Moonbolt]

as long as we would tone down dmg on meele in general sure, becouse right now meeles have access to better dmg in order to compensate for the kite/synch issues in pvp

rolek i love ya man but seriusly??...
better dmg??

[Insane666]

Wow you sure got a lotta melee toons in your sig there

i got none, but i play AO long enuff, and pvp all those meele profs often enuff, to know what im saying, me not having any meeles in sig is a poor argument, if i were mean i could point out you have nothing in yours

just compare the min-max dmg on ranged vs meele weaps, compare the alphas aswell, meele's are in general more heavy hitters, theres a reason ranged ppl kite ( and why meeles can hit while running, aswell as why it was ranged profs that got cc in ao, ao devs just went a dif way then most other mmo's devs did - were meeles are in general faster then ranged )


the dmg meeles are currently doing is ballanced over the lower speed, want more speed to ALL meeles, adress the dmg aswell

Ranged damage pale in comparison to melee damage. Let's just look at the comparison:

Melee damage over 10 seconds > ranged damage over 10 seconds...obviously melee is better than ranged.

Melee damage over 11 seconds < ranged damage over 11 seconds...wait, did someone's capping specials just refresh?

Melee damage over 22 seconds <<<< ranged damage over 22 seconds...ok where are my perks? Did those ranged guys just refresh their capping specials again? That burst special is almost refreshed a 3rd time too!

Melee damage over 33 seconds <<< ranged damage over 33 seconds...well at least my shades perks are up again, hopefully they land this time with my non-atrox shade.

Melee damage over 44 seconds <<<<<<< ranged damage over 44 seconds...OH SNAP, sneak attack bish, but if I use it now I can't use it in my alpha Ok i'll save it for another 16 seconds and then I'm kicking your ass.

Need I go on? Aimed shot, Full auto, Burst are greater than melee damage over time, and kiting only widens that gap.



Sorry, you have to stop for a split second before taking 90% of a players health from 35m away




What you guys are not paying attention to is:

Name		V.P.	BM	MM	MC	TS	PM	SI	QL	LvL	NCU	Nano	Atc.	Atc cap.	Rech.	Cool.
	Clarion Call	yes					117		24		8	54	1		2	30
	100% PM vs 50% NR												sec		sec	sec

Vp	Bm	Mm	Mc	Ts	Pm	Si	Lvl	Ncu	Ql	Nano	Atc	Cap	Recharge	Cooldown
Greater Prolong Encounter
				571	754			47	152	643	2		1	          10
											sec		sec

FC is giving melee an ability to get in range of a player once every 30 seconds, ranged single CC tools have a 10 second cooldown. What I also do not see is a shared cooldown for snares as well, which at the very least FC needs to limit the use of root and snare chaining on a single target.

2 times a minute melee gets in range of you (at the most so far), 6 times a minute CC professions stop melee professions. Stop whining about finally having to deal with a melee opponent besides enforcers.

you just chose to not take into account normal hits ( wich in case of meele's actually do enuff dmg to count ) or perks

and not every ranged prof has CC, and not every ranged is soldier ( only1 to cap FA 11sec ), and etc

besides we all know good enuff that in ao its more about alpha then dps ( wich is supposed to change, but since its a joint current/future situation discussion its a valid argument ) ,and only meele thats lacking somewhat in this departament would be keeper, and thats only vs high hp profs, but this is somewhat justified by their survivability


i dont mind having faster meeles after reballance, assuming FC will adress the dmg somehow ( the thing that was supposed to compensate for lower speed/synch issues over the years )

rolek i love ya man but seriusly??...
better dmg??

yes, seriously, just didnt mean pure special dps like gatester in his post, and not every ranged is a soldier

to give a example, i wouldnt kite ( or lets say break LOS ) in 1on1 vs any ranged on doc, i will very often kite vs most meeles tho, and its not just becouse i am mean, but becouse ranged just lack the alpha power to take me down, while at the same time 4 out of 5 meele's, if given the chance, might just succed ( wich fortunately doesnt happen that often since im a natural born kiter;p )

This. I want my ranged toons to shoot/nuke while running also.

its a topic for a dif discussion, but it should be possible ( at lets say 75% of your attack rating - since its harder to aim while moving )




PS. not every ranged is faster then meele anyways, while some meele's tend to claim on the forums that they are LITERALLY the slowest ( meele's in general )

[Weltall]

i got none, but i play AO long enuff, and pvp all those meele profs often enuff, to know what im saying, me not having any meeles in sig is a poor argument, if i were mean i could point out you have nothing in yours

Yeah well you know, maybe you should try playing a melee prof in pvp. Because see, I have both ranged and melee toons and I can tell you that ranged have a very large advantage by being ranged and being able to hit while running can in NO WAY compare to the advantage of range.

The only melee prof that's really fearsome atm are enfs. Shades/MAs/keepers are meh and well I don't even really see any melee advs anymore since they got massive ranged love.

[Insane666]

Yeah well you know, maybe you should try playing a melee prof in pvp. Because see, I have both ranged and melee toons and I can tell you that ranged have a very large advantage by being ranged and being able to hit while running can in NO WAY compare to the advantage of range.

The only melee prof that's really fearsome atm are enfs. Shades/MAs/keepers are meh and well I don't even really see any melee advs anymore since they got massive ranged love.

wich doesnt at all mean meele adves are a bad or unvialble pvp choice, aswell, i wouldnt say thapiggy (keep),exodul (ma), or hematuria (shade) are meh, actually with exception of piggy ( as said before, keepers lack alpha for high hp docs ) they are one of those few that will make me start kiting (1on1)

and ofc yes, being able to strike while running is just the icing on top of the cake


and again, im not saying meele's shouldnt get a way to catch up with ranged profs, but if we do so, we have to adress the issues it will introduce

[Marinegent]

If a melee user is in melee range, a ranged users ONLY priority should be to get out of melee range ASAP, no exceptions (maybe soldier )

But in regards to docs with melee, in that case need to provide support for SMG enforcers to be able to land fullautos at capped recharge, on evaders.

..yeah.

Since runspeed is being rebuilt, we can only assume kiting will vanish. So you'll have to run that one by the devs, because your idea of the game is obviously not even close to what they have in mind.

Also, why should smg enforcers land FA on evaders when the two profs who have support for it cant?

[Gatester]

you just chose to not take into account normal hits ( wich in case of meele's actually do enuff dmg to count ) or perks

and not every ranged prof has CC

yes, seriously, just didnt mean pure special dps like gatester in his post, and not every ranged is a soldier

So melee professions do what, 2x maybe 3x the damage of ranged profession's regular hits now? If you want to fail in math, at least do it against someone who does not have 100% ranged based pvp professions at almost every title level.

In order to make what you say the truth, I suppose we will have to start looking at each profession.

Engineers, obviously low damage profession with two high attack rating pets that also have nasty Procs alongside an engineer either spamming Aimed Shot and burst or using a grenade/shotgun that crits higher than the Bhan'Zor Hammer. Has CC tools

NT's, yeah their DPS sucks because they can never land those nukes. Even when the nukes do land, their damage is so low that they rarely even cap on players. Has CC tools

Doctors, I'll be nice and say they hardly are given the opportunity to use their 3 dots, Aimed shot and Malpractice which nukes better than MP's.

Crats, two attack pets and the nasty procs asside, I am glad they hardly ever proc that 200% nano damage add proc for their nukes. (Pets do need more AR, but its not much different than an MA's AR) Has CC tools

Traders, the best crit ranged weapon in game, high crit chance, high attack rating, exactly which melee profession is supposed to have more DPS than traders, MA's? Valid point if traders did not have more static AR than most MA's and shutdown most opponents defensive abilities. Has CC tools

MP's, argh yah got meh. MP damage sucks. Not gonna count the mezz pet as a CC tool either.

Soldier, not even going to bother.

Agent, high crit, high damage add, and procs, definately not half or one-third melee profession damage. The only complaint here is that agents can't actually alpha anyone, and we all know thats most important. Has CC tools

Fixer, they have no regular damage because they are always kiting. So I guess thats another one we can chalk up for you. Has CC tools

Anyone count how many of those had CC tools?

You wanna give it a shot with melee professions or should I do it for you?

MA's, very high damage, massive critical hits...and less static AR than adventurers, agents, enforcers, engineer pets, fixers, keepers, NTs, shades, soldiers, and traders.

Enforcers, very little crit chance, very little damage add, enforcers are one of the lowest DPS professions in the game and you want to nerf their regular damage further?

Shades, yeah, shades need to be nerfed.

Keepers, high damage add, hard hitting procs, good attack rating to land those hits...and a no sneak attack and average alpha at best. Pretty sad when their "better than ranged damage" can hardly kill anyone. Still trying to figure this one out.

Adventurers, anyone up for arguing that ranged advy is still weaker than melee at tl7?

FC is already nerfing the alpha capabilities of melee professions, and I am sure all those people that rolled a tl7 melee profession for the DPM in PVP should be nerfed as well.

and we all know good enuff that in ao its more about alpha then dps ( and only meele thats lacking somewhat in this departament would be keeper, and thats only vs high hp profs, but this is somewhat justified by their survivability )

In some duels or 1 vs 1 encounters its about --- ALPHAs

In some duels or 1 vs 1 encounters its about --- DPS

In mass pvp or team based pvp its about --- DPS

Once a player is dead, they can no longer kill you. Complicated I know, but the basis of alphas being important at all is that they eliminate the threat before they eliminate you. Now explain to me how a single player can alpha a team or a zerg?

If you actually played a melee profession in mass pvp you might have a clue what you are talking about. Full Auto, burst, AS, nukes are all far more effective than trying to alpha a player in mass pvp. Then you still have the advantage of hitting your target without being INSIDE the other zergs blob.

If players did not kite and they had evades the same as mobs, then yes two melee professions would be doing a ton of regular damage, two would do pretty good regular damage, and one would be as ****ty as usual.

[SoapTarder]

...excellent analysis of ranged vs melee...

good post. nice to see common sense isn't dead.

[Genie]

You can't actually create real balance, right

AO already have real balanced PvP. Its called mech fights. Whoever shots first usually wins. Nobody does it because it is insanely booring. So do we really want real balance?

[crattey]

God, don't you people get tired of these threads? You can't sum up all the complex interactions of the various melee versus ranged professions in a few sentences. All these lists lack any depth whatsoever and none of these threads actually offer anything useful to the balance discussion.

90% of the threads here thread gets the exact same people spewing the exact same narrow-minded nonsense on the same topics over and over again.

[howlin]

Amazing anyone even rolls a melee toon considering all thats said here

[Jekonam]

God, don't you people get tired of these threads? You can't sum up all the complex interactions of the various melee versus ranged professions in a few sentences. All these lists lack any depth whatsoever and none of these threads actually offer anything useful to the balance discussion.

90% of the threads here thread gets the exact same people spewing the exact same narrow-minded nonsense on the same topics over and over again.

That does not change the fact that it needs to be adressed. Your own comment was ironically as useful as you described.

[Jekonam]

Amazing anyone even rolls a melee toon considering all thats said here

Apart from enfo that might be the trend