Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 50

Thread: balance and consequences

  1. #1

    balance and consequences

    ok, i really don't want to make this a whine thread, before u missunderstand me.

    but i really see a great great danger that fc will loose half of ingame population when the "balancing" happens.

    most ppl in ao are veteran players, sticking to it because they are addicted, they are so used to how things work and are that massive nerfs (like in enfo case) will just make them go "screw it" and leave.

    u can correct me if u want to, but the whole ballance thing (maybe 10% of ao playerbase is really wanting that badly), is the biggest danger to ao itself (just look what happened to swg when they changed the gameplay).
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  2. #2
    about the enf, people got used it to be OP and now when they are balancing it everyone thinks enfo wont be so good in pvp, once again becouse they are USED to it to be powerful, and balance will acctualy make them a bit weaker but not useless like many are claiming.
    SOON™coming back...
    Neosh 220/20 Shade | Neokirurg 220/21 Doc crit setup | Neoc 216/18 Crat
    Shades are really invisible (from FC point of view)
    Patterns/symbs SALE ----- Refined imps SALE

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Neosh1 View Post
    about the enf, people got used it to be OP and now when they are balancing it everyone thinks enfo wont be so good in pvp, once again becouse they are USED to it to be powerful, and balance will acctualy make them a bit weaker but not useless like many are claiming.
    greatest fun on agents was always going fp/mimic enfo and go for it...tanking in to3w, tanking tiigs, tanking ely hecks, tanking ado hecks... just having plain fun.
    no health on mongo + less taunt = fun goes poof.

    just one of many side effects of changes. and sorry, enfos are definately not overpowered in endgame.

    that whole this and that is OP talk usually results out of people not being able to play/twink their prof and then whining about getting owned by prof xy. look at shades for example, most are whining and some are really OWNING in mid/high.

    but calling for "ballance" is easier than thinking about what ppl are doing wrong ^^
    i really don't know any prof in ao that can't be made into a really good pvp toon.

    ohh...and there is always a "nerf this, nerf that circle" like that funny guy in the other thread who is whining about the fact that his 150ish soldier with 1850 ar can be drained by traders.
    there might as well be a thread of a 150ish fixer in full css and stuff complaining soldiers with 1850 ar just hit them and call for an "ar nerf for soldiers". while a ma is complaining he can't hit fixers because their aad is too high for him and blablabla... whining all over.
    Last edited by nitr0; Aug 22nd, 2010 at 09:38:25.
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  4. #4
    The rebalancing effort that FC are presently going through is, I think, more important than just looking at a couple of professions that may be called OP or underpowered by some people and then trying to nerf them back to a level with other profs... or raise the other profs up a bit.

    The Rebalancing is really not about just tweaking professions to try to get a more balanced profession line-up in the present environment. It's more about addressing a great many basic issues that have always needed to be addressed in order for AO to take the next step in its development to allow a more balanced overall picture to the game. And it's also about increasing fun and variety of gameplay to take professions in new directions.... all of which will please a lot of veterans and bring players back to the game - while also hopefully holding on to newer players more.

    Many players will come back to the game purely because these basic general issues are being addressed. But also, the solution of some of these basic issues will also see overall profession vs profession balance improve.

    Addressing AS and the massive emphasis on Alphas in PvP for example, is something that's really needed to be done for years now. As a general issue in PvP it has caused problems for many years now. But also as a balance issue, the alpha reliance has always meant that professions that are built more to deal out damage over time (Pet profs, Docs etc) were always at a built in disadvantage that always skewed balance in the game. AS too with its no defence, cappable hits has been skewing PvP balance for years and years back to pre-SL days.

    Similarly, addressing the issue of NR checked perk specials being affected by AAD and making the caster intended perk lines use Nanoskills as attack skills is a basic thing of importance. Caster professions have suffered balance issues for a long time because they can't get enough AR to be able to land AR based perks effectively.

    Another example, that's relevant to the Enf stuff for example, is that FC are addressing the whole question of runspeed curves, caps etc. with the goal of making runspeed specialism really count, while also addressing strafe and synch issues etc... in order to try to remove the kiting imbalances and make movement balance better in the game.

    Again... with hostile nanos, the introduction of local cool-downs to make cc/debuffs less spammable while also reducing durations across the board... all of this will make for a generally more balanced game.

    With regard to the individual professions though, there's also a clear intent in what FC have so far released, to make the individual professions more interesting, varied and fun to play. So while the MAs didn't get a great deal in terms of balance movement in either direction, the introduction of the new stance is intended to add in variety and choice to their template, while not affecting their overall balance too greatly. And reworking of the NT and Agent professions to make them more fun and less one-dimensional... they're all being done partly for balance but also just to make these professions more interesting, varied and plain fun to play.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Aug 22nd, 2010 at 12:03:59.

  5. #5
    i can tell for shades, i perk enf both with totemic rites and piercing mastery perks (if i live long enough to do it/18 perks) and they still got like 30% hp left, and it takes alot of time to do those perks,also count that im getting hitted/perked in meantime...for me that is OP.
    SOON™coming back...
    Neosh 220/20 Shade | Neokirurg 220/21 Doc crit setup | Neoc 216/18 Crat
    Shades are really invisible (from FC point of view)
    Patterns/symbs SALE ----- Refined imps SALE

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    fixers (...) soldiers (...) shades MAs, agents and NTs are hard fights for enfs and some of them nearly impossible such as fixers.
    are you freaking kiddin ?

    fixer is one of the easiest kill for any correct 215+ enfo ... all perks land, stuns cut the bail, stupid 1HE/1HB alpha get the fixer down within 10-15 sec >MAX<, while fixer alpha often can't do more than bring the enfo to 40-50% (or worse once cocoon & BR+mongo went out).

    beside this, out of TMS time, soldiers are neither any match for an enfo, same for shades wich evades can't beat enfo AR/dd while enfo HP advantage most of the time is enough to bring shade first down, mathematically. MA & especially agents are more than doable if the enfo knows howto spit the stuns on the good timing.

    that leaves us with NT wich are a hard time for almost all professions including themselves.
    so if you don't joke, whether you don't play enfo, whether you play it bad (no flaming intended here, i'm dead serious).
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Neosh1 View Post
    i can tell for shades, i perk enf both with totemic rites and piercing mastery perks (if i live long enough to do it/18 perks) and they still got like 30% hp left, and it takes alot of time to do those perks,also count that im getting hitted/perked in meantime...for me that is OP.
    get real...
    average enf HP is 30-32k health.
    ur sneak attack skill should be high enough to cap a 10k SA on the enf.

    Ritual of Devotion - Melee -95 .. -175
    Devour Vigor - Cold -193 .. -359
    Ritual of Zeal - Melee -154 .. -286
    Devour Essence - Cold -984 .. -1828
    Ritual of Spirit - Melee -420 .. -780
    Devour Vitality - Cold -2269 .. -4215
    Ritual of Blood - Melee -937 .. -1741

    thats 7 perks.

    Stab - Melee -95 .. -117
    Double Stab - Melee -106 .. -198
    Perforate - Melee -771 .. -1431
    Lacerate - Melee -694 .. -1290
    Impale - Melee -3152 .. -5854
    Gore - Melee -2122 .. -3942
    Hecatomb - Melee -3184 .. -5914

    thats another 7 perks.

    i get those 2 lines to a total of 14 perks and not 18 as u claim as a starter.

    second of all i have a 219 shade so i know for a fact that the dmg shown in the perk planner on auno is atleast doubled with piercing skill in PvM cause i regulary do 10-13k Hecatombs.
    so with the halving of the PvP cap lets for simplicitys sake just use the high end value of the perks dmg.

    175+359+286+1828+780+4215+1714+117+198+1431+1290+5 854+3942+5914 = 28103 dmg.

    add to that the capped SA that ur more or les guaranteed as a shade u are around 38k dmg.
    thats a dead enf even if he used his 5 min recharge 5k absorb.

    if u dont manage to keep him stunned thru all that time the enf will get off his 10k coon.
    but its not like u havnt done any regulars in the time that it took to execute those perks and its not like u dont have more perks to fire off.

    u atleast have the CoLI perks and the attacks fm the shade only AI perk line wich is quite massive aswell.

    i know for a fact that my shade wich is 219 and not nearly complete does over 4k crits and 2k regulars in pvm.

    so comin here and sayign that an enf lettign u chain up all those perks w/o running off or press MR and alpha u i just silly, specially when u claim that the enfs has 30% HP left after getting all that dmg fired into him.

    maybe ur talking about duels where the enf had Imub up or something but that is in my opinion a pretty irrelevant situation since enfs SL essences are getting nerfed and if u cant figure out how to beat an enf with a -2k snare on him u deserve to die.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  8. #8
    Doubt they'll loose much people over this. Aside from the fact that all the enfos going emo is somewhat silly and premature, considering we haven't nearly seen all the changes yet, there is another, more fun fact to consider: even if they were to delete the entire enforcer profession, for most people this will be a good thing, considering enforcers, at the moment, are a joke in PvP across titlelevels and are unbalanced as hell.
    Sure, a few emo enf twinks might ragequit, but for the majority of people the runspeed nerf is a good thing, not a bad one. Hell, I'd say that rather than loosing people over this, they're more likely to regain some previous ragequitters, mostly keepers/soldiers I guess, who emo'd their way out of the game when they lost their FotM status.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    are you freaking kiddin ?

    fixer is one of the easiest kill for any correct 215+ enfo ... all perks land, stuns cut the bail, stupid 1HE/1HB alpha get the fixer down within 10-15 sec >MAX<, while fixer alpha often can't do more than bring the enfo to 40-50% (or worse once cocoon & BR+mongo went out).

    beside this, out of TMS time, soldiers are neither any match for an enfo, same for shades wich evades can't beat enfo AR/dd while enfo HP advantage most of the time is enough to bring shade first down, mathematically. MA & especially agents are more than doable if the enfo knows howto spit the stuns on the good timing.

    that leaves us with NT wich are a hard time for almost all professions including themselves.
    so if you don't joke, whether you don't play enfo, whether you play it bad (no flaming intended here, i'm dead serious).
    sorry, but a good soldier can kill an enfo twice during tms time, since absorb is blown away by one single FA...

    but as i said, it's much about the toons, there are fixers i can easily kill on enfo - and there are fixer i just hit rage and run because i know i can't harm them...

    how u wan't to balance a game where toons can be so different? - u can't...
    the balance as it is is kinda ok in my oppinion (except nts).

    u make good -insertanyprof- killable by 0815 -inserprofhere- and they will be helpless against the good people from prof -insertprofhere-... but is that really the game that we want?

    the "balance" a lot of people screaming for can ONLY be accomplished if the gap between fully equipped 220/30/70 toons and 220ish toons with shop imps and tl6 equip is drastically removed.

    atm fully equipped toon(100%) vs fresh powerleveled toon (30%) would have to be 100% - 90%...
    then u would have "balance".

    (and in my oppinion a lot less ao players...)
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    are you freaking kiddin ?

    fixer is one of the easiest kill for any correct 215+ enfo ... all perks land, stuns cut the bail, stupid 1HE/1HB alpha get the fixer down within 10-15 sec >MAX<, while fixer alpha often can't do more than bring the enfo to 40-50% (or worse once cocoon & BR+mongo went out).

    beside this, out of TMS time, soldiers are neither any match for an enfo, same for shades wich evades can't beat enfo AR/dd while enfo HP advantage most of the time is enough to bring shade first down, mathematically. MA & especially agents are more than doable if the enfo knows howto spit the stuns on the good timing.

    that leaves us with NT wich are a hard time for almost all professions including themselves.
    so if you don't joke, whether you don't play enfo, whether you play it bad (no flaming intended here, i'm dead serious).
    wow lol i dunno how to respond to this ....

    ill give it a try atleast.

    lets start with fixers, yeh ill demolish most fixers on my enf... the top fixers tho like flaviosan and pariss etc on RK 1 i can never ever beat cause they have to much def for me to perk even with MR, and once they go below 50% health they kite me for a short while and they are back up at full health and i got nothing to do except try to run.

    soldiers - that comment about a soldier w/o AMS is no match for an enf made me laugh tbh.
    since when do soldiers complain at all about enforcers having a slim chance to catch one with AMS down, its not like enfs can outlast a good solds AMS. and why did even boter to mention a soldier with AMS down, its just a silly stupid comment to make.

    Shades - good shades are hard as hell to survive vs. take hematuria as an example . he knows how to hug stealth and pop up behind u and just alpha the crap out of u.
    shades arnt ment to tank enforcers.
    their strenght comes from popping out of sneak and killing the target fast and hard.

    MAs - yeh slowdown gives enfs a fighting chance vs MAs a realy good MA isnt that easy to kill tho and if the enforcer isnt trox both shades and MAs are nearly impossible fights if not completly impossible.

    agents - yeh most agents are cannonfodder to just about any enf. there are a few out there tho that nkows how to fight vs enfs and do it realy well... if they just live thru the initial alpha the enf is chanceless cause their DD rips right thru an enf before he gets a second chance to alpha.

    and NT would actually have been a quite fun and nice fight for an enf if it wasnt for that redicoulus root. its just retarded. NTs NBS makes it quite hard to kill an NT even w/o that root.

    im guessing tho that ur playing a heavily undergeared toon tho if u think ur statements were correct.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    their strenght comes from popping out of sneak and killing the target fast and hard.
    With current mechanics, sneaking in most cases simply isn't realistic, nor very fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    ur sneak attack skill should be high enough to cap a 10k SA on the enf.
    SA isn't reliable (for obvious reasons), don't kid yourself.


    if u dont manage to keep him stunned thru all that time the enf will get off his 10k coon.
    How do I keep an enf stunned all the way through without relying on PROCS? Plus if you have SR perked you do not have the TR perkline perked. (which is essentially useless against an enf because TR's main damage is in the form of cold at the moment.)
    Last edited by notcrattey; Aug 22nd, 2010 at 18:30:40.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  12. #12
    if u read what neosh1 said he said totemic rites and piercing mastery.
    i added the combined dmg from those 2 lines and counted the complete number of perks.
    simple as that.
    and SA in the hands of a shade is pretty reliant.
    on my enf i usually do 4-5k + SAs and its very rare that i do less.
    shades is alot better off in the SA department then enfs is so yeh SA is quite reliant.
    and u aperantly chose to take quotes completly out of context.
    if Neosh1 has an inferior pvp setup that isnt my fault.
    and it just helps to show my point even more right cause of the fact that i said that good shade rip good enfs to shreds when popping out of sneak and unleashing their dmg into them.
    i know that most pvp shades dont have totemic rites perked for pvp.
    but u notcrattey should learn to read thru the whole post and aswell the post it was a direct answer to.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  13. #13
    After the "rebalancing" is done enfs won't be able to cancel their big hp anymore. So soldiers will kill enfs much faster now. And in a duel a soldier will beat an enf with a 1+2 script very easily.

    And I'm saying this playing a 220 sol btw.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    if u read what neosh1 said he said totemic rites and piercing mastery.
    And I said he couldn't have stun perked, which means he has no reliable stun.

    i added the combined dmg from those 2 lines and counted the complete number of perks.
    simple as that.
    Please count in the fact that you WILL have absorbs up and that TR which it's main damage IS cold, it won't do very much will it?
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  15. #15
    I would never die to a 2hb non-trox enforcer, it simply is not possible. So why is it people want such severe nerfs for all enforcer types and not nerfs where they are needed. Too much AR, too much NR, too much max health. You guys just want a punching bag and it looks like FC is giving you one.

    Just to point out, the only professions I can consistently kill with my shade and MA are:

    Agents
    Crats
    Enforcers
    Shades
    Soldiers

    Yes they can kill me, but I don't go QQ and scream for a nerf because I actually died to these profs. Its the ones that I almost never kill that need a massive nerf and not the profs that actually die.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by notcrattey View Post
    And I said he couldn't have stun perked, which means he has no reliable stun.


    Please count in the fact that you WILL have absorbs up and that TR which it's main damage IS cold, it won't do very much will it?
    as i said.
    is the reason to call for a nerf for enfs that he has chosen an inferior pvp setup?
    that logic is just retarded...
    lemme go untrain every perk i have and just run around unperked and cry for a major boost to enforcers.
    stop making a fool of yourself wiht ur flawed logic.

    a shade brings down an enf just fine in pvp... a shade enf fight is usually decided on who gets the jump on the other or who has their defences up etc.
    if u know how to play a shade u should know that it can be a farily even fight.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    a good soldier can kill an enfo twice during tms time (...) how u wan't to balance a game where toons can be so different? (...) the "balance" a lot of people screaming for can ONLY be accomplished if the gap between fully equipped 220/30/70 toons and 220ish toons with shop imps and tl6 equip is drastically removed.
    about soldiers : read again what i said ; "out of TMS time" (wich got a long cooldow as you may know). then your affirmation is completely out-subject of mine
    about rebalance : i moraly disagree. you can't balance the longest experience on the fastest levelling, the best brought down to the lowest. you need to compare comparable things : design such profession rebalance has to be based on comparing same level best possible twinks, knowing their profession & PVP tricks pretty well. be challenging shall require time & effort otherwise you lose veteran's interest and doesn't create particular newbie involvement.
    about title : you seem to only consider TL7 when rebalance seems to consider most level ranges in perks & nanos documents we've seen so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    if u think ur statements were correct.
    not less valid than yours, if you please

    as proof, you agreed most of my post but added EXCEPTIONS (= name of certain players) wich isn't an objective way to state balancing standards for comparison. also i can tell you i have a correctly geared fixer and only gimpest (= medsuit PLers) 215+ enfos can't kill me. almost all others know howto use rootgraft/stuns/perks cleverly and beat fixers almost anytime.

    also what you're trying to oppose (e.g. fixers you can't hit or soldiers that beats you easy) strangely forgets to mention that's related to rather dynamic short defs with a rather long cooldown (DS10/A-TMS), and goes mainly for the first blood or duel contexts. things are totally different in a team vs team context, and that's even reinforced in zerg situations as for Tara/NW.

    but i'm glad you came back on several of your original affirmations (especially for shades and agents !).

    ps : @ next post ; i won't enter any immature spamming war with anyone, soz. PM me if needed ...
    Last edited by bitnykk; Aug 22nd, 2010 at 21:02:10. Reason: next post
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  18. #18
    how the hell can they use stuns and root grafts etc on u... u dont know how to use ur toolset.
    enfs can land 1 perk on fixers. wich is a stun sure..... but 1 perk + SA wont kill u.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Doubt they'll loose much people over this. Aside from the fact that all the enfos going emo is somewhat silly and premature, considering we haven't nearly seen all the changes yet, there is another, more fun fact to consider: even if they were to delete the entire enforcer profession, for most people this will be a good thing, considering enforcers, at the moment, are a joke in PvP across titlelevels and are unbalanced as hell.
    Sure, a few emo enf twinks might ragequit, but for the majority of people the runspeed nerf is a good thing, not a bad one. Hell, I'd say that rather than loosing people over this, they're more likely to regain some previous ragequitters, mostly keepers/soldiers I guess, who emo'd their way out of the game when they lost their FotM status.
    But enfos are traditionally the mothers of emo! Remember the "Enf Strike!" when they changed absorb mechanics?
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  20. #20
    seen After8 consistently beat endgame, good soldiers. super enforcer
    Hellrule 220/30/70 - Your future Crat Dictator
    Secretly Clan

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •