Um k let's fail

[Omutb]

They have made enfs both more powerful, and weaker. Saying that we will become stronger or weaker is impossible to say until it hits live and people adjust to the change.

Exactly the trouble.

Because theres lots of "impatient" people and people that compare their newly released profession changes to existing, as yet, unchanged professions, theres a lot of unnecessary wailing and ranting going on.

Once all the information is available, and people have had a chance to see how things balance out, THEN and only then is it time to compare and rant.

[Insane666]

Exactly the trouble.

Because theres lots of "impatient" people and people that compare their newly released profession changes to existing, as yet, unchanged professions, theres a lot of unnecessary wailing and ranting going on.

Once all the information is available, and people have had a chance to see how things balance out, THEN and only then is it time to compare and rant.

i would argue over that, when i see things like a 50% NR check on Program Override in the fixer excel sheet, theres only one thing to be said: WTF?

and no changes we could anticipate on other profs can justifie a nano like this having a 50% NR check, going down from 175% to 150% would be reasonable, going down from 175% to 50%? as i previously mentioned, only 1 thing comes to mind: What the ............?

unless thats just a typo, wich i hope it is


+ theres things that we dont need the final numbers to argue over them already, like adves being able to use/or not able to use, after the reballance, coon alonside with acro perks

[Armus]

Exactly the trouble.

Because theres lots of "impatient" people and people that compare their newly released profession changes to existing, as yet, unchanged professions, theres a lot of unnecessary wailing and ranting going on.

Once all the information is available, and people have had a chance to see how things balance out, THEN and only then is it time to compare and rant.

No, because we already know that once something is changed it literally takes YEARS to undo the damage.

Want some examples of things the community have asked for for years that have either been executed or is said to be in the pipeline?

LE nukes (which by the way were toned down significantly before they were released and were and are still overpowered to the moon and back). Still not fixed. By the way they even had to change game mechanics (caps went from 40% to 30% so that nbs nukes wouldn't insta kill ppl, and yes you can deny that as much as you like, we still know it's true) due to this nuke instead of removing it.

Orbital strike.. took a few years there to realize what it was doing to NW.
3 whole years of next to zero tl7 activity on rk1, relatively very little on rk2 as well. That's longer than most games are played, yet it took that long to fix this.


Crat stuns. Have been removed completely. Also took unreasonably long.

GTH. Also been nerfed. Was a game beaker for many and also took years.

BR. Just as bad as GTH and also took years for them to fix.

These are just a few examples off the top of my mind, there is ofcourse much more. The point being, again that once in game, things may literally take years before they change IF FC listens at all, so we have to tell FC what we think now or it may be too late.

And..FC is showing us these things, bit by bit. Not just rolling them out.
If the whole point of that isn't for us to voice our opinions, positive or negative, I don't know what it would be.

Thank you.

ps. I also hope that PO will be 150% and not 50% as it seems now. Removing buffs is the dumbest and lamest concept for pvp nanos there is in this game. Ask keepers how they like the nemesis nanos! What's next?

Nanos that unequip armor or spend your remaining ip.. or crash your client? I mean, it's anarchy, anything should go, right?

[Anarchic1]

What noobius jsut said is exactly why. With a 5 man dev team, it takes forever to get back to something.

[Taranide]

ps. I also hope that PO will be 150% and not 50% as it seems now. Removing buffs is the dumbest and lamest concept for pvp nanos there is in this game. Ask keepers how they like the nemesis nanos! What's next?

PO is only good for removing composites and DoF/limber plus some meaningless stuff. It needs a boost first to be retarded. Ask anyone who has done Dreadloch special agents and pvp vs fixers.

[borriss]

Now now, I see alot of people stating how enfs are totally fked over and how it's the end of the world... Please fellaz, this is NOT at all complete or finish yet... Enf's get access to new cool perks... New stuns/init debuffs that are really nice, paired with the rest of the tools they got heck that's pretty nice.. Also perk damage will be increased as you can now use perks you previously had to chain strange stuff to be able to do...

Don't be so negative about the rebalance patch before it goes live... When it goes live, and everything is changed... Try it, and really be honest about what you experience to yourself.. Then if you still want to cry, that's the time to do it.

Rebalancing best thing to ever happen to AO I think (hope)

[Moonbolt]

Now now, I see alot of people stating how enfs are totally fked over and how it's the end of the world... Please fellaz, this is NOT at all complete or finish yet... Enf's get access to new cool perks... New stuns/init debuffs that are really nice, paired with the rest of the tools they got heck that's pretty nice.. Also perk damage will be increased as you can now use perks you previously had to chain strange stuff to be able to do...

Don't be so negative about the rebalance patch before it goes live... When it goes live, and everything is changed... Try it, and really be honest about what you experience to yourself.. Then if you still want to cry, that's the time to do it.

Rebalancing best thing to ever happen to AO I think (hope)

err what new kool perks are u talking about?
the oly new perk enfs are getting access t is the top attack in brawler.
the stuns that u claim we get more of is the total opposite of what we are getting. we are getting less stuns and init debuffs.
perk dmg will be decreased not increased.
and the perks that needed chaining still needs to be chained.
get ur facts straight.

[sultryvoltron]

err what new kool perks are u talking about?
the oly new perk enfs are getting access t is the top attack in brawler.
the stuns that u claim we get more of is the total opposite of what we are getting. we are getting less stuns and init debuffs.
perk dmg will be decreased not increased.
and the perks that needed chaining still needs to be chained.
get ur facts straight.

I guess you also need reminded that Enf perks (1hb, 2hb, 1he, 2he) were already reworked (read: doubled in damage) and only saw minor adjustments to put them inline with other professions perk changes (read: more appropriate def checks).

[Moonbolt]

my god sultry stop already.
the dmg is getting nerfed on the enforcers perks from what they were upped to.
the def checks change means that we wont have any chance even vs undergeared evaders.
theres alot of nerfs in the perk docs.
only the slowing down of our alpha wont let us kill any healer class at all.
the only thing that makes enforcers competitive atm is that we have a strong alpha.
between alpha recharge enforcers have nothing.
and when the alpha wont be enough to actually alpha someone then enforcers offence is reduced to nothing.

to understand what the slowing down of the enforces perk alpha means to an enforcer u need to understand the way enforcers kill people atm.
the reason uor alpha is so effective is cause it hits fast and hard and has a stun in the middle.
if u had any understanding of how we kill people today u would realise that the alpha will take twice as long to excecute and that all of the power that comes with that alpha is reduced to almost nothing. its already enough if the doc gets 1 heal in to survive our alpha or an agent to for that matter.
with slowing down of the alpha that will always happen.
that means enforcers only means of killing someone is gone basically.

and the def check nerf.
yeh we can kill gimped evaders as it is.
undergeared fixers or advs etc.
the top geared fixers or advs are already impossible to kill just cause of the fact that 2 perks and a SA isnt enough to actually kill them.
MAs we are atm able to kill thnx to slowdown and MR but when the alpha takes twice the time to excecute and slowdown removed we wont be able to kill MAs either.
and against agents and advs enfs doesnt have the dmg mitigation to survive long enough to get several chances to alpha them or to outlast their nano pool.

[Obtena]

I guess you also need reminded that Enf perks (1hb, 2hb, 1he, 2he) were already reworked (read: doubled in damage) and only saw minor adjustments to put them inline with other professions perk changes (read: more appropriate def checks).

Yeah, they were doubled from nothing. You make it sound like they cap

[Insane666]

PO is only good for removing composites and DoF/limber plus some meaningless stuff. It needs a boost first to be retarded. Ask anyone who has done Dreadloch special agents and pvp vs fixers.

well, obviously its not epsilon purge, but still, little undestatement that it just removes dof/limber and rest is meaningless

just gonna copy/paste rockers post from auno:

houserocker @ 2009-03-11 00:50
Made this list for myself but may as well share.

Useful things this can remove:
Composites (ranged, melee, nano), Playful cub (common graft), a large number of proc actions.

Adventurer: Leader Of The Pack (both base and aura), Mother Wolf (aura portion only), Eagle Eye, Free Movement, Knowledge of Inferno
Agent: Form of the Executioner, Greater Predator
Crat: Improved Cut Red Tape, Motivational Speech (aura portion only)
Doctor: Instinctive control (various versions including Nanite Instinctive Control)
Enf: Physical Dominance
Engineer: Rapid Weapon, Sympathetic Entropy Infusion (aura portion only)
Fixer: Firewalled Sync Compressor (and lower), Blessed By Shadow (aura portion only)
Keeper: Imminence line (aura portion only)
MA: First Strike, Supreme Kyudo, Aegis of Notum (and lower), Velocity, Dirty Fighter, Horde
MP: Sacrificial Shield, Anticipation of Retaliation
NT: Izgimmer's Wealth
Soldier: Gazump fight (both base and aura), Improved Ranged Energy Weapon Mastery, Improved Precognition

Important Perks: Dance of Fools, Limber, Defensive Stance, Commanding Presence, Mongo Rage, Overrule, Wit of the Atrox



thats way more then "meaningless" stuff


so yeah, it would be beyond retarded with a 50% NR check, that commning from some1 who planned to play a fixer after reballance

[crude4gone]

LE nukes...Still not fixed.

Heh, so you dont think FC have any plans to change this now they have the chance eh.

Anyways I dont hear anyone complain about the dot from rage being removed

[Saetos]

Who even cared in the first place? Most Enforcers' heldeltas outhealed the darn thing.

[crude4gone]

Who even cared in the first place? Most Enforcers' heldeltas outhealed the darn thing.

I care when I'm in SL.

[Obtena]

^^ And that's relevant to what? Certainly not enfo PVP.

[sultryvoltron]

my god sultry stop already.
the dmg is getting nerfed on the enforcers perks from what they were upped to.
the def checks change means that we wont have any chance even vs undergeared evaders.
theres alot of nerfs in the perk docs.
only the slowing down of our alpha wont let us kill any healer class at all.
the only thing that makes enforcers competitive atm is that we have a strong alpha.
between alpha recharge enforcers have nothing.
and when the alpha wont be enough to actually alpha someone then enforcers offence is reduced to nothing.

to understand what the slowing down of the enforces perk alpha means to an enforcer u need to understand the way enforcers kill people atm.
the reason uor alpha is so effective is cause it hits fast and hard and has a stun in the middle.
if u had any understanding of how we kill people today u would realise that the alpha will take twice as long to excecute and that all of the power that comes with that alpha is reduced to almost nothing. its already enough if the doc gets 1 heal in to survive our alpha or an agent to for that matter.
with slowing down of the alpha that will always happen.
that means enforcers only means of killing someone is gone basically.

and the def check nerf.
yeh we can kill gimped evaders as it is.
undergeared fixers or advs etc.
the top geared fixers or advs are already impossible to kill just cause of the fact that 2 perks and a SA isnt enough to actually kill them.
MAs we are atm able to kill thnx to slowdown and MR but when the alpha takes twice the time to excecute and slowdown removed we wont be able to kill MAs either.
and against agents and advs enfs doesnt have the dmg mitigation to survive long enough to get several chances to alpha them or to outlast their nano pool.

You have no perspective. Or maybe you do, you just aren't voicing your concerns properly.

Are you asking to keep /instakill alpha? Everyone's response will be roughtly the same. Not just no, but hell no.

Are you asking for a better way to deal damage other than an alpha? I'm ok with that, and I figure many others will be. You just need to ask for it in a well reasoned way that doesn't include the phrase "OMG WE R SO NERFED!!!!"

I'm not blind. Anyone can see how Enfs will have to rethink how they play. Running alpha gank machine isn't going to be very effective with 2s perks. Absorbs scaling with body dev should be pretty useful for Enf tanking. If ACs get reworked (god I hope they do) then Enfs will get a pretty nice boost from that. If 30% caps are changed (god I hope the dev team sees how bad that mechanic is) then Enf HP will be a huge defense. Have a little patience and a little faith.

Yeah, they were doubled from nothing. You make it sound like they cap

You on the other hand, simply have no perspective.

[Saetos]

I still say that Enforcers' toolsets need to be more CC-oriented than damage and offense oriented. Sure, they should be able to kick some ass with the weapon of their choice, but at the same time they need to expand their CC tools beyond Avalanche and Crush Bone so that they can keep their melee advantage as any good tank should.

[Moonbolt]

You have no perspective. Or maybe you do, you just aren't voicing your concerns properly.

Are you asking to keep /instakill alpha? Everyone's response will be roughtly the same. Not just no, but hell no.

Are you asking for a better way to deal damage other than an alpha? I'm ok with that, and I figure many others will be. You just need to ask for it in a well reasoned way that doesn't include the phrase "OMG WE R SO NERFED!!!!"

I'm not blind. Anyone can see how Enfs will have to rethink how they play. Running alpha gank machine isn't going to be very effective with 2s perks. Absorbs scaling with body dev should be pretty useful for Enf tanking. If ACs get reworked (god I hope they do) then Enfs will get a pretty nice boost from that. If 30% caps are changed (god I hope the dev team sees how bad that mechanic is) then Enf HP will be a huge defense. Have a little patience and a little faith.


You on the other hand, simply have no perspective.

i replied to u in the other post sultry before i saw u redirected me here :P
i completly agree with u AC should be reworked.
and yes enforcers wont be alpha monsters after the rebalance.
the problem is that its the only way we have to actually kill someone atm.
between our alphas we are utterly useless, and i have said that in so many posts on this forum before.
and the absorbs scaling with body dev. as far as i have understood from the enf professionals this is just loose speculations so far that somehow the engie prof has taken as a fact.
atleast nothing has been confirmed abuot it yet and it didnt look like they aer goin to scale with body dev from the documents e have received so far.

i have also said in the enforcer forums that i wouldnt care if enforcer alpha was nerfed to oblivion if we got some other way of killing an opponent, for example a wepon like back pre SL we had with the EQB that wasnt 1/1 but almost capped the oponents health when it hit and could be brought down to 1/1 for short bursts with rage and flurry of blows.

that is just an example from me what could be done but enforcers needs either to keep their alpha or a good way to lay some sustained dmg to their target that isnt neglectable.
otherwise enfs wont be able to kill anything with the exception maybe of other enfs and crats.

[Obtena]

You on the other hand, simply have no perspective.

At least I'm not making arguments based on nonsense. The perks were changed from complete suckage to regular Joe, average damage perks, kind of like what everyone else has. i.e FC fixed something that was a long time coming that should have been fixed the day those perks were released. Is that extraordinary to you because I don't see any other reason to give notice to it. Do you somehow think enfos shouldn't have good damage perks?

I lack perspective because I think enfos should have damage perks on the same scale of damage as everyone else? Fine, I have no perspective then and I guess FC doesn't either because they made the changes, not me.

The fact is simple, almost all the damage perks fom every other line but 2HE sucked. They were fixed to be inline iwth other damage perks in the game. FC were foresighted enough to recognize how stupidly retarded it was for a 220 end game enfo to hit perks that did 100 points of damage and how it was preventing enfos from using their different of flavours of weapons effectively. If you see some reason to think that's unreasonable considering the damage templates of all other professions, it is you that lacks perspective.

[sultryvoltron]

At least I'm not making arguments based on nonsense. The perks were changed from complete suckage to regular Joe, average damage perks, kind of like what everyone else has. i.e FC fixed something that was a long time coming that should have been fixed the day those perks were released. Is that extraordinary to you because I don't see any other reason to give notice to it. Do you somehow think enfos shouldn't have good damage perks?

I lack perspective because I think enfos should have damage perks on the same scale of damage as everyone else? Fine, I have no perspective then and I guess FC doesn't either because they made the changes, not me.

The fact is simple, almost all the damage perks fom every other line but 2HE sucked. They were fixed to be inline iwth other damage perks in the game. FC were foresighted enough to recognize how stupidly retarded it was for a 220 end game enfo to hit perks that did 100 points of damage and how it was preventing enfos from using their different of flavours of weapons effectively. If you see some reason to think that's unreasonable considering the damage templates of all other professions, it is you that lacks perspective.

You're right. They changed Enf perks to be average, regular joe perks.

In fact, the perk changes were so average that almost every single Enfo changed to 1hb/combo.

Absolutely, the perk changes were so weak and insignificant that EVERYBODY thinks Enfs have the perfect amount of alpha with appropriate defense checks and barely any stuns.

Hell, those perks are so generic, uninteresting, and average that good Enfs can alpha DOCTORS with the new perks, even with a setup that has 2/3 the attack perks of 1hb/1he.


Any nonsense in there?