New Enforcer Nano Changes

[Dragocze]

Atrox excell in health and heal delta, Opi's excell in agility and evades, Nanomages excell in Nano casting and Solitus are a well rounded mixture of everything. I think we can all agree that with those areas of expertise, Atrox is the one for an Enforcer who's main characteristic has been high Health and the ability to absorb damage.

That's right for froobs but not for 220/30/70 Enf. Best end game PvM enf breed is now opi. Difference between trox and opi is 2k HP, which is nothing for Enf. Only real advantage of being trox for Enf is MR. After patch it would be probably still opi, but nano mage can surprise.


Interesting could be make new Mongo line buff body dev. insted of HP.

Mongo's Kraken
now: 15k HP

sugested: 4k body dev.
(trox = 16k, opi, soli = 12k, nano =8k)

Or make it combination of both.
sugested: 8k HP + 2k body dev.
(trox = 16k, opi, soli = 14k, nano =12k)

Edit: Nano could have some -HD, if needed for balance.

[fortorn]

Well isn't this a kick in the head. Trox continuously being phased out while the nanomage is made even more useful with the higher nano reqs across the board.

I get it Obtena, there shouldn't be just one breed for a profession. And for the enforcer there are 3. Nanomage is not one of them. It should never be a viable option for the sake of making a trox a less viable one.

Just my personal opinion. It doesn't feel right and I'll swear under oath now I think it is a bad idea to change things to allow it.

Unintended consequences......

[fortorn]

Also, if we are doing full breed balancing then I think Ofab needs a look over. Its not fair that "profession" specific gear is equippable only under "breed" specific circumstances.

Enforcer is str/stam only, Crat is int/psy. These are CLEARLY signs funcom intended certain breeds for certain professions. They need to be changed to profession specific green skills, not attributes if you want to TRULY balance the breeds with the professions.

Otherwise this enforcer rebalance is all hot air and an attempt to force the tank and gank machine to lay down and die.

[Kopecz]

Trox continuously being phased out while the nanomage is made even more useful with the higher nano reqs across the board.

There shouldn't be just one breed for a profession. And for the enforcer there are 3. Nanomage is not one of them. It should never be a viable option for the sake of making a trox a less viable one.

You are certainly uninformed if this is your position. NM is definitely a viable breed for enforcer, but Atrox will continue to be the breed for new enforcers if for no other reason than the ease of equipping str/sta armor, high ql str/stam/agi imps and symbs and earlier access to 2 second heal delta.

And let's face it, certain breeds -will- have a definite advantage for certain profs, but all breeds should be -viable-. Want early hp? Roll a trox. Wanna cast your nanos earlier? Roll NM. Wanna twink higher QL imps earlier? ... You get my point.

That being said, veteran players will turn to other breeds for endgame pvm enforcers and specific twink builds (such being built around earlier access to nanos [i.e. early TL4s casting mongo crush/behe], 2 second nano delta or the advantage of higher nano pool for tanking). This isn't sacrificing Atrox on the altar of Nanomage-dom in any way.

Also, if we are doing full breed balancing then I think Ofab needs a look over. Its not fair that "profession" specific gear is equippable only under "breed" specific circumstances.

No it's not. It means the maximum quality of gear is lower.

Enforcer is str/stam only, Crat is int/psy. These are CLEARLY signs funcom intended certain breeds for certain professions. They need to be changed to profession specific green skills, not attributes if you want to TRULY balance the breeds with the professions.

And the fact enforcers get str/stam buffs has nothing to do with the fact that our armor requires str/stam to equip amirite?

[Obtena]

Well isn't this a kick in the head. Trox continuously being phased out while the nanomage is made even more useful with the higher nano reqs across the board.

I get it Obtena, there shouldn't be just one breed for a profession. And for the enforcer there are 3. Nanomage is not one of them. It should never be a viable option for the sake of making a trox a less viable one.

Just my personal opinion. It doesn't feel right and I'll swear under oath now I think it is a bad idea to change things to allow it.

Unintended consequences......

Well, if that's how you are reading into it, I can't argue with that but I find it inevitable. When 99% of the enfos are Trox and there is a change that affects Trox enfos negatively, then if that's 'Phasing' atrox enfos out, so be it. If being Atrox doesn't work for you after the balance, you have the option to use a breed reset.

I'm not sure what makes you think NM is an invalid choice for enfos but it IS an option, just as valid as atrox.

[lainbr]

Hai,

1 - The best enf I ever saw is NM;
2 - Nobody is crazy enough to perk DtN NM Perk, its gimp and useless;
3 - When I see an Enfo I see Soli, not Atrox;
4 - Enfs are suposely to keep mobs away from squishies, not have massive HD.
5 - Well, Enfs got only nerfs, but they keep the most important thing on nanos. (If someone tells Mongo HP is more important than HoT, I'll kick you.

[Tanana]

Enforcers are Tanks, they're supposed to get hit and take damage. They are able to take all the agro in the world and survive. They negate this by out lasting the damage with a combination of insanley high HP and HoT.

Enforcers are not evaders, nor are they a nano casting profession.

Just as a trox enforcer should have limitations on nano and ability to cast nano program early, so too should a NM or Opi Enforcer struggle with HP and maintaining their health. the problem is that with recent changes we've recieved a buff that pushes your HP well over 60k (40-50k is ample) while at the same time giving us a combination of taunts that means you'll never lose agro. This has turned the focus away from what an Enforcers core atributes are (strength and stamina) and totally changed the profession.

As it stands, yes, there seems to be very little reason to roll Trox enfo and with these changes those reasons seem to be shrinking, this is fundamentally wrong for the profession.

I was hopeful that these changes, which are lowering our HP would force breeds such as NM and Opi into a hard place and make it more difficult for these breed choices to function. I liked the times when breed mattered to your profession, times when rolling up to the beast as a NM would cause all the docs in the raid to start panicing.

[Loucretia]

Pre SL NM enf was truly a joke. You only rolled one for giggles the same way you rolled a trox NT for giggles.

With everything that SL and later brought, more breed choices became viable for most professions, and I dont really see too much wrong with that.

However, as to what a profession is supposed to be, that is fairly subjective.

To me the Enf profession was always aimed at Trox, even though I rolled my Soli Enf way before SL - I guess I wanted to be different and I was lucky that the choice became more viable later.

So basically, I believe Trox should be the best suited breed for enf, and other choices should be ... different ( and not quite as good ). I agree that it would be wrong for any other breed to become the breed of choice for Enforcers.

[Gatester]

You don't have to perk it...

Then what does nanomage offer over solitus? The only "minor" advantage nanomage has over solitus or opi is a slight increase in %cost.

If you want the nano regain from nanomage, you have to perk points into the same breed line that offers the DTN benefit, but you will end up not using the core feature of that perk line. The nano regain gives you:

At Nanobreed Secondary 10
Nanomage Secondary Genome 10: 600 nano, every 5 sec.
20 seconds
120 second recharge

Now there is no indication of an initial hit, so that is only 2400 nano but 3000 if they add one later. 1200 nano per minute.

At Solitus Beta 10
100 health, 50 nano every 10 sec.
300 nano per minute.

Nano: 500 .. 500, 9 hits, 2s delay
18 seconds
Nano: 500 .. 500
150 second recharge

So solitus enforcers have 300 nano per minute from a constant nano and health heal and the final buff, which is also a heal for the same amount, gives 5000 nano every 150 seconds. That makes the total nano regain for a solitus 2300 per minute.

Considering solitus also has more evades, more weapon skills, more healing and still an easy time twinking or swapping gear, I see absolutely no reason for an enforcer to choose nanomage.

[Hellrule]

You missed the DTN from NM perks

[Obtena]

Considering solitus also has more evades, more weapon skills, more healing and still an easy time twinking or swapping gear, I see absolutely no reason for an enforcer to choose nanomage at 220.

I fixed your statement a bit there. This balance 'stuff' isn't just about endgame 220 enfos. I can think of lots of places where a NM enfo is currently on par with Atrox performance. It just doesn't happen to be at 220. With the incoming changes, even at 220, especially with the nanocost changes, I can see where someone might want a NM enfo for PVM. I see how you conviniently forgot the main advantage of NM in your assessment: Nanopool.

I think it's funny to see people claiming enfos aren't a 'casting' class. If enfos weren't casters, how good a tank do you think you would be? How effective would an enfo be at PVP if they weren't casting almost constantly? Let's not make up some reality here to prove whatever points we are trying to make. Enfos cast ALOT of stuff ALL THE TIME in PVM and PVP. If you don't think enfos are a casting class, your just dead wrong.

[Tanana]

Ob, your confusing the way an Enfo currently works in AO with the way it SHOULD work.

Try and think conceptualy and not how the current tool set is utilised. If you think in this way and when you close your eyes you still see Gandalf then thats OK by me.

And lets be honest, a modern day enforcer is very simple in their nano use. Our main nano's consist of a Tauntx2(AoE and Single), a short term damage boost, an absorb and a Run Speed/NR buff. You only need 2 of those to get through ANY end game content.

Just because we have to spam our taunts doesn't really make us much of a caster profession imo.

[Obtena]

Well, you're just ignoring the PVP aspect of enfos. I'm not going to envision the way it should work because it's not relevant what I think how an enfo should work. There is the way is does work and the way it will work. There isn't aynthing else.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I am twinking up a TL5 enf right now, and I've just finish my 1k token run.

I don't have a lot of experience, but, soloing lambeer about 20 times in the last 10 days or so has taught me a fair bit on how to manage nano, and how incredibly important casting is for survival as enforcer.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you are not set up to cast efficiently and with reasonable cost, you will be fall very quickly to the bottom rung of tanking.

For PVP, I am less experienced, but so far, in the 25ish duels I've done, indeed, casting also plays a major role in damage mitigation and survival.

From my experience, even at TL5, two factors seem to be greatly overlooked, 1. normal's damage, 2. damage shield.

I dueled a few enforcers, and in not one duel did I see my opponent actively keeping a large damage shield. You can effectively buff your damage by 25-35% by keeping maxed out damage shields. I do this for boss fights in PVM, due to long perk recharge, and in controllable PVP fights. by getting a 300+ damage shield, in PVM the damage is obvious, you swap targets and by the time you get to the last target it might be already have lost 25% health (situation dependant), but in PVP I think the damage is halved, so it's only 150 dmg per hit. But, with only 500-700ish regulars, thats a 30% boost in damage on every hit.

Spamming absorbs for defence in PVM is remarkably effective. In my fights with lambeer with damage type rotation among mobs, that the advantage is obvious. In PVP, fighting an enforcer with a SOW+whatever, you may win a fight JUST based on absorb shield management. I've not ever seen a class so dominated by casting for survival.

I would argue that enforcer is just as dependant on casting for survival as doctor.

[Tanana]

I would argue that enforcer is just as dependant on casting for survival as doctor.

Well, every profession is dependant on the nano programs that they can cast, it's what defines them. Just because an Enforcers nano programs are of a shorter duration then most and we need to spam them doesn't really make them a casting profession. Imagine a Soldier with a 2min AR buff, 2min damage buff and a AMS that they have to continually spam to keep active.

When I think of casting professions I think of Extermination, Control and Support professions. I don't think of Artillery and Infantry professions.

[Troxxor]

That's right for froobs but not for 220/30/70 Enf. Best end game PvM enf breed is now opi. Difference between trox and opi is 2k HP, which is nothing for Enf. Only real advantage of being trox for Enf is MR. After patch it would be probably still opi, but nano mage can surprise.


Interesting could be make new Mongo line buff body dev. insted of HP.

Mongo's Kraken
now: 15k HP

sugested: 4k body dev.
(trox = 16k, opi, soli = 12k, nano =8k)

Or make it combination of both.
sugested: 8k HP + 2k body dev.
(trox = 16k, opi, soli = 14k, nano =12k)

Edit: Nano could have some -HD, if needed for balance.

Interesting idea

Just for kicks I just compared my enfs for HD, this is what I got. Both standing, both self buffed with SL Ess, not ibehe (easy to get them ticking with a half empty HP bar )

My Soli Enf gets +197 per tick (173 from equip in sig)
Stam = 1143 (342 from equip)
BD = 1896 (452 from equip)

My Atrox Enf gets +192 per tick (167 from equip in sig)
Stam = 1279 (346 from equip)
BD = 1830 (352 from equip)

In spite of my atrox being in pvp gear & my soli in pvm gear I expected my atrox to have the higher tick... hmm, oh well lol!

[Gatester]

I fixed your statement a bit there. This balance 'stuff' isn't just about endgame 220 enfos. I can think of lots of places where a NM enfo is currently on par with Atrox performance. It just doesn't happen to be at 220. With the incoming changes, even at 220, especially with the nanocost changes, I can see where someone might want a NM enfo for PVM. I see how you conviniently forgot the main advantage of NM in your assessment: Nanopool.

I think it's funny to see people claiming enfos aren't a 'casting' class. If enfos weren't casters, how good a tank do you think you would be? How effective would an enfo be at PVP if they weren't casting almost constantly? Let's not make up some reality here to prove whatever points we are trying to make. Enfos cast ALOT of stuff ALL THE TIME in PVM and PVP. If you don't think enfos are a casting class, your just dead wrong.

I had a 49 nanomage enforcer twinked in CO, VTE's, and a setup based on nanopool and nanoskills. If you think my twinks deserve any credit for at least being well built, then take it ernestly when I say the advantage for nanomage at lower levels is based on false assumptions. You do not realize just how much weapon skills and max health you lose and how much weaker your armor will be compared to other breeds. When the breed caps begin to hit, and you have far more nanoskills than you need, it only becomes even more irrelevent to have chosen that breed.

Being a casting profession by nature does not take away the need for enforcers to maximize health, healing, weapon skills and evades to be successful. If we end up with casting problems in the future then nanomages will not be excempt simply due to their breed.

Probably the strongest determinant of whether nanomage is superior to other breeds is going to be whether more %nano and %max health tools are introduced, at which point constant casting in raids will have to balance with ease of healing. As we do not have many of these tools at this time there is simply not enough to support nanomage being better than the other 3 breeds.

[Obtena]

^^ Sure NOW it is. I get that currently, that enfos won't take their HP and other stuff, for granted. With the new scheme, enfos won't take alll those things AND nanopools for granted.

[fortorn]

Well, you're just ignoring the PVP aspect of enfos. I'm not going to envision the way it should work because it's not relevant what I think how an enfo should work. There is the way is does work and the way it will work. There isn't aynthing else.

Isnt that exactly your job. To bring our desires,complaints and vision of our class to the ears of our developers?

If your job is simply a mouthpiece to force unwanted and uneeded changes down our throat i see a duplication of efforts here. Kintaii does just fine at that job.

[Obtena]

Well, if you want my honest answer, I'm not going to present them with weak arguments just to have it dismissed. I mean, what is the message you want me to give to FC devs? I don't think anyone has presented a compelling argument here that I can take to them to convince them that despite their general trend to increase nanocosts for all professions, enfos should be the exception because Trox enfos don't like it.