New Enforcer Nano Changes

[Kintaii]

So 12 posts = feedback?

People are used to the old system so every change that you may do its always going to be a "nerf" in everyones eyes. How about do the balance and get feedback after for adjustments, this way you won't achieve any balance if you listen every "emo QQ oh noes my profession is going to suck" out there.

Feedback is good, but you can't call it a feedback if a handful of people complains about it. Im just saying..

Regards

... you realize there's more threads about the topic on the forums than just this one, right? There's the big Friday with Means thread from last week which has quite a bit of discussion on the topic, as well as the Enforcer Nanos thread over in the Enforcer profession forum, just as two examples. This isn't including feedback from the Professionals, PMs we've received, and even feedback we've gotten from chatting with players in-game/on IRC. There's more than just one source of feedback. ;P

That said, getting feedback *now* is very important because, as I said earlier, even though we will continue tweaking and altering as we go along it's important that we start getting the *flavour* right as early in the process as possible - Changing numbers is easy; changing *design principles* is a little more difficult, and something that the feedback we receive right now helps with in a lot of ways.

[Techtoxic]

... you realize there's more threads about the topic on the forums than just this one, right? There's the big Friday with Means thread from last week which has quite a bit of discussion on the topic, as well as the Enforcer Nanos thread over in the Enforcer profession forum, just as two examples. This isn't including feedback from the Professionals, PMs we've received, and even feedback we've gotten from chatting with players in-game/on IRC. There's more than just one source of feedback. ;P

That said, getting feedback *now* is very important because, as I said earlier, even though we will continue tweaking and altering as we go along it's important that we start getting the *flavour* right as early in the process as possible - Changing numbers is easy; changing *design principles* is a little more difficult, and something that the feedback we receive right now helps with in a lot of ways.

One other thing Mister Dev, You say that getting feedback now is very important and bla bla, how exactly can someone offer feedback if they haven't tried it? Its like telling you now to give me feedback on some shampoo that you never used just by telling you what the ingredients of its composure are. How can anyone tell whats going to happen if they haven't tested it?

Like I said, do the balance, then ask for feedback or you will end up with the same mechanics/balance whatever that used to be and will be. (not like the balance will be release this century. 4x excel in 1year and something = lols)

[Kintaii]

Its like telling you now to give me feedback on some shampoo that you never used just by telling you what the ingredients of its composure are. How can anyone tell whats going to happen if they haven't tested it?

When you go to pick out a new shampoo at the store, do the scents used have no influence? Do you not care about whether the shampoo is made for oily hair or for thin, brittle hair? Do you pick up anti-dandruff shampoo even if you don't have dandruff?

I can tell you I don't like the scent of lavender. I can tell you that I need a light shampoo that won't destroy my hair. I can tell you that my hair's been colour-treated, or that I have split ends, or that I'm bald and all I really need is a scalp rinsing treatment. I can do all of this based off the packaging and list of ingredients without ever even opening the lid.

As I said previously, this process is as much about flavour as it is getting the numbers right - In fact, right now, the "feel" is the most important part to gain out of the rebalancing documentation; something that most people are starting to pick up on as we go along. And given the amount of people on these forums who can visit Auno.org, pick up a calculator, and then two hours later have figured out exactly what pieces of equipment they need to twink on that gun at level 49, I have no lack of faith that the majority of our playerbase can do the same with the documentation - Even though the numbers themselves are all subject to change, it isn't hard for most people to look at the information we've released and get a grasp of where things are headed. Naturally, this isn't to say that the numbers we're using right now *aren't* what we're actually aiming for, mind you - Just that there is and will always be a chance that said numbers might be subjected to further change as we go along.

So yes - I could give you feedback on a shampoo I've never used based off the ingredients list. And we on the development team know that the majority of the people who play our game have the intelligence to do the same. =)

[Xtremtech]

Like I said, do the balance, then ask for feedback or you will end up with the same mechanics/balance whatever that used to be and will be.

What do you think the devs' design process looks like? They isolate the issues in the game that they want to address. They come up with ideas about how each of those issues might be addressed and discuss them with each other, giving feedback to each other on the ideas and the possible positive and negative impacts.

Then somebody starts firming up those ideas in more detailed designs, which they then discuss some more, until they can sign off on those changes. Because of the size of the job, they've broken it down into sub-sections that are manageable... so each section comes back based on the broad lines. And as each section comes back, they're checking it for integration with previous sections too.

That's how it'll be designed... and what this dev team has done is to involve the players in those discussions. This is undoubtedly a good thing and fortunately, some players are able to work in that development style.

Of course, it would be a lot easier to give feedback knowing more about the environment in which the changes will end up. It would be easier for the Devs as much as it would be easier for us. All of the feedback would no doubt also be a lot better... but not having that information doesn't mean we can't give any useful feedback at all.

The case is proven in two ways:

1) People are giving feedback all over the place... so those people are managing to find enough information and direction they feel they can use. It will be of varying usefulness and quality... but at least some of it will be useful to the process.

2) Feedback given in the forums has already changed documentation... so the devs are getting feedback that they feel they can use and that fits the process. If the feedback were useless, this wouldn't be happening

Originally Posted by Kintaii

I can tell you I don't like the scent of lavender. I can tell you that I need a light shampoo that won't destroy my hair. I can tell you that my hair's been colour-treated, or that I have split ends, or that I'm bald and all I really need is a scalp rinsing treatment.

Interesting mental picture of Kintaii...

X

[Kintaii]

(note: i love lavender, my hair requires that heavy-duty shampoo, never dyed it, and only slightly bald. i had bad split ends when i had my ponytail, though ;P)

[Manicmouse]

I think Kintaii won the battle of the shampoo metaphor. \o/

[erozc]

Conversing about shampoos is actually much more exciting than any of the nano changes. L'Oreal forums, here I come!

Edit: I posted that Root Rescue is OP because it does everything and that Studioline is gimped even though it's really expensive. I hope they will rebalance their products real soon or I'll quit.

[bitnykk]

L'Oreal forums

i think those prolly speak more of french right-side money scandals but ... hey ! no politics around

[Otinsainpas]

Burst damage perhaps, but consistently? I run dd pretty much all the time to see how I'm doing and the highest I've seen a shade end up at is 270k (apf general). But hey, I know jack all about shades, maybe the ones on rk1 just suck

perhaps they do..
anyway im all thumbs up for making agro holding harder. it means only that bad enfs must learn to tank.

[Kintaii]

Just so you guys know, new Enforcer nano changes are up in this week's Fw(o)M thread. =)

[erozc]

So, what are the changes in a nutshell, then? Volunteers?

[bitnykk]

So, what are the changes in a nutshell, then? Volunteers?

i've commented the differences i found between newest enfo nano changes (27 august) and first version (20 august) right here :
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...7&postcount=42

ps : btw if you use openoffice like i do to read XLS, you can make all bigger by ctrl+mousescroll (idk if excel does it too).

[erozc]

i've commented the differences i found here :
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...7&postcount=42

Would have been helpful if you listed the differences too. Now it's kinda read-between-the-lines stuff - for instance, did nano skill reqs get lowered now, in the initial doc, by how much? The excel is super painful to read especially on a laptop with a lower than 1920 pixels wide resolution.

[Amickson]

I just read the new document and all I can say is lol wtf?
You nerfed taunt nanos even more than before. I don't believe in some magical taunt items devs inventing, currently they are crap and i have no reason to believe they won't be crap in future. Dreadbringer line is junk as always was. Perk changes nothing in taunts abilities. Changing current dmg of player chars (aka nerf) is just impossible, it will lead only to rage quitting. So how will future enforcer hold aggro off players?
Seems to me that you completely forgot there is some pvm ingame, solo or group. This are the players who got AO running. And no, you can't nerf player abilities back to preSL era, this won't work.

[Harios]

Kintaii, question about the new nemesis nano for enforcers because thats still a bit vague to me.

When you cast it, it draws agro and locks the fighting target for several seconds? (like 12man)
Or can the nemesis'd player switch targets again right after?

I imagine the first option would be best.. for like 3-5 seconds to give the original target some air.

[Spartanx9]

Changing current dmg of player chars (aka nerf) is just impossible, it will lead only to rage quitting

How so exactly?

So we do, theoretically, 80% of our original damage post balancing changes. If mobs health gets scaled down as well, the only thing you'll be noticing is how you aren't pushing X thousand damage per min before the changes when you were doing Y thousand damage per min. I know seeing big numbers is fun, who doesn't like seeing those?


It's completely doable to do that, just that the rest of the world have to be changed to accommodate. Keep in mind, numbers can always be changed. If the proposed taunt values aren't quite as enough to keep aggro post balancing, even with enforcer doing the maximum threat "rotation", then it can always be beefed up.

[erozc]

I just read the new document and all I can say is lol wtf?
You nerfed taunt nanos even more than before. I don't believe in some magical taunt items devs inventing, currently they are crap and i have no reason to believe they won't be crap in future. Dreadbringer line is junk as always was. Perk changes nothing in taunts abilities. Changing current dmg of player chars (aka nerf) is just impossible, it will lead only to rage quitting. So how will future enforcer hold aggro off players?
Seems to me that you completely forgot there is some pvm ingame, solo or group. This are the players who got AO running. And no, you can't nerf player abilities back to preSL era, this won't work.

How it pretty much works now:

I R ENF AND MANGO MUCH, KEEP AGG GOOD.

Assisting will probably be required in the future. It was in the past too. Yum!

[Warhead]

The reality, however, will be that people will just go splat left and right out of their own stupidity and blame it on the enf because 9 out of 10 wont know diddly **** about the changes. Yes, will be fun having them chew on your ears...

[Towerblock]

Ditto Ganiscol:

I cant wait for all the crying babies to ragequit, to be honest. I hope the changes piss off every single one of them. All those lone wolf must have best ROFLLOLPVPprof will be rolling over under their covers wondering what the hell the word 'team' means.

If you die in front of a good enf, its probably down to 1 major mistake that breaks down into two parts: Said DD prof does something stupid, and the tank or the healer aren't catching it - OR - they let you die on purpose to teach you a lesson.

If someone emoragequits over their own selfish butthurt reasons, then I say dont let the door hit you on the way out. Don't need that kinda player in the first place.

[Skyelord]

I don´t like the reduced taunt on mongo. Mongo is what an enfo makes an enfo.

One Aimed shot gone wrong, one full auto gone wrong, one perk gone wrong, one area nuke gone wrong, one whatever gone wrong, and the enfo has basicly no chance to get aggro back.
Not every enfo is end-equiped and not every damage dealer a 100% professional. Mistakes happen. And enfos are a life line to compensate for this mistakes.

I would prefere something like: 20k Taunt on mongo. 40k taunt on singel taunt (with an increased cooldown if you whant to nerve the total amount of taunt... maybe 20sek)

That would give an enforcer at least a choise which perk he likes. Otherwise you HAVE TO perk every singel taunt-action availabel.. and it would not be enough.

Side note: Absorbs only last 20sek.. its ok I think. Still no layering. Damage proc on element-line is nice (adds to the flavour, not to the power).