Fix PVP Easy
Gee.. maybe if you Just added in the neato feature of persistent skill checks for Weapons and Armor...and de-equip them if you don't meet requirements (like when that super twink buff wears off). Then for the most part you will not have to worry about twinko psychos puttin out twice as much damage as HP people their level have in the first 2 seconds...THEN revert NPCs Back to their previous lower HP level and blammo--a balanced system that WORKS.
Nah, don't unequip. Just lower the effectiveness of the armor and/or weapon.
Your statement is the same as if a race car driver drove a used honda on the track, then complained because he couldn't beat the twinkers who devoted time and money into their cars.
In the same sense, people have devoted a lot of time and credits into twinking thier characters, and just like a finely tuned race car, they will easily smoke your stock character.
If you are too lazy to improve your character through the legitimate and intentionally implemented means available, then don't expect to be able to compete.
The differences between a stock character and a twinked character are as large as the differences between a volkswagen beetle and a nascar. The avenues toward character development are opened just as wide to you as they are to any uber twinker in the game, put in the effort or except defeat beforehand.
I don't think you read the post carefully enough. The biggest qualm with PVP is the twinked characters. What Thruthvang was saying is having persistent skill checks for items you equip. So if you get your Strength and Stamina buff by 25 each, and are able to equip your full set of Organic armor, once the buff wears off your armor should de-equip (a feature that was toyed with in 12.6 on test) or in my suggestion the armor should lower its effectiveness.
Now going back to your analogy of the race car driver...
How can the driver effectively use his "twinked" car if he doesn't know how to drive it? The same goes with PVP characters. How is a level 20 character supposed to know how to effectively know how to use a level 70 gun when the buffs where off?
And no, you don't have to spend a lot of time to tweak your character. The good majority of characters that PVP full time don't work for that finely tuned "performance" you call. Most people have a higher level character(s) that does all the work for their lower level chars and/or they have a friend or guildmate that helps them mule and buff to twink them.
I can understand twinking for solo and team play. But Arena PVP is ridiculous.
I read it plenty carefully, and understood it just fine. What you don't seem to understand is that buffing to equip was intentionally implemented by Funcom from day one. Where do you get the idea that armor and weapons should de-equip / be penalized? Your own mind obviously, since Funcom has given no indication that they agree with your concept of how it should be. If you want a sci-fi explanation then consider this, you have to have a certain skill in order to initiate the interaction between the notum in the item and your own NCU, once that link is established then to maintain it isn't as cpu intensive. Either way, buffing to equip is just part of the game, one that needs to be utilized in order to succeed.I don't think you read the post carefully enough. The biggest qualm with PVP is the twinked characters. What Thruthvang was saying is having persistent skill checks for items you equip. So if you get your Strength and Stamina buff by 25 each, and are able to equip your full set of Organic armor, once the buff wears off your armor should de-equip (a feature that was toyed with in 12.6 on test) or in my suggestion the armor should lower its effectiveness.
Imagine if you played Diablo 2 but refused to use healing potions becuase it doesn't make sense that potions can instantly heal you. That would be silly right? So is this notion that buffing to equip is some sort of mistake. It doesn't make sense that treatment laboratories or first-aids can instantly heal you, but i'll bet you use them. Exploiter.
What you just inadvertantly implied is that making a high level character doesn't require a lot of work. In fact it does take a lot of work. People don't "just have" higher level characters, they play for hundreds of hours and earn high level characters. It is true that most of the resources used on these twinked characters do come from that persons high lvl'er - but those high lvl characters took a lot of time and effort to make, those resources don't come cheap. You say the higher lvl character does all the work, no, the player behind the character does the work and then transfers his earnings to his other character. Twinking out a lvl 20 is expensive even by a lvl 80 characters standards, often taking millions of credits.The good majority of characters that PVP full time don't work for that finely tuned "performance" you call. Most people have a higher level character(s) that does all the work for their lower level chars
If you had put the hundreds of hours that I have into building a character and all the careful thought and planning that goes in to making a strong character then you would understand arena pvp. Its a good feeling to see your opponent go down and know that it is because you put more work into your character than they did. And it is sad to see people who do not understand trivialize the dedication that goes in to making a strong pvp character.I can understand twinking for solo and team play. But Arena PVP is ridiculous
Well first things first. It was NOT intentional in the beginning. Were you around for 12.6? I suppose that they tried to do that just to nerf right? Um..no..they were trying to put the game back to where it was intended and the Vocal Minority cried. Go back and read the threads(ok it may be difficult now since they changed the boards... =P) but anyway. This unrepaired exploit is the reason for most of the balance issues in game today. They DID intend you to constantly meet the requirements in order to use an item. They have admitted that, end of story.
And although your explanation seems sort of valid as far as fitting the story goes...I would like you to humor me and read the comments on armor the next time you put it on. They do NOT say "you gotta be strong and smart to PUT THIS ON". Most often they say something to the effect of "In order to UTILIZE the functions of this armor you are required to have high X and X skills."
Finally...who gives a dam how much time exploiters put into rippin off a game? I don't. I suppose the next time someone robs a bank we are supposed to say..."Don't arrest them because they spent so much time planning the Crime". BS. You expect me to believe that if I spend a ton of time on my career and make tons of money...that my son, by virtue of his birth, is able to use a QL100 SMG just because I bought it and buffed(twinked) him to read the manual and that as soon as his buff(knowledge) wears off that it just becomes habit for him and he can keep using it even though he doesn't have the skills anymore? Keep in mind this is a skill based system not a money based system. Explain to me why they don't just change the QL of items from lvl 150 down to 50 if you are supposed to use them at that level.
BTW when putting more effort means "time and money" that is not a game of skill. That is a game of opportunities for the skill-less to buy their way to the highest ranks. I choose to believe that they did not design this game for EBayers and I think that is evident from all of FunCom's Responses. I don't believe that twinkers are afraid of being nerfed. They are afraid of other players seeming powerful compared to them. How does it give you satisfaction to defeat someone that is unprepared or hindered by normalcy? If you enjoy that, then beat up on handicapped people in real life and let us enjoy our fantasy of equality in here.
Now that sounds like honor to me.
Equipping items while your skills are buffed IS intentional from the beginning. Some time ago a Funcom Official said the game is designed around that ability. They just underestimated the players and how they will find every way to improve their skills.Originally posted by Thruthvang
Well first things first. It was NOT intentional in the beginning. Were you around for 12.6? I suppose that they tried to do that just to nerf right? Um..no..they were trying to put the game back to where it was intended and the Vocal Minority cried
Really? Would loev to see the thread on that...
I have never seen that comment and i have been here since release. Not saying your wrong, man, but I can't verify it.Originally posted by Bierbauch
Equipping items while your skills are buffed IS intentional from the beginning. Some time ago a Funcom Official said the game is designed around that ability. They just underestimated the players and how they will find every way to improve their skills.
If that is true, then AO will always be broken beyond belief. The MOB/Player damage/hitpoint ratios being as out of whack as they are are only complicated by no active skill requirements.
Sandrix, I'm sorry that you think that you should be allowed to do this. Bottom line is that it causes far more problems than it solves to not have active requirements. Never forget that MOB's are as tough as they are right now _expressly_ because of the twink factor that they had to level the playing field against.
This is why now people are so unhappy and unable to fight most creatures. I'm slightly overequpped (in that i don't always hav ethe active skill reqs running) , but i wear nothing i can't put on myself.
Either a global fix on the mob/PC ratio must be done to bring them in line with each otehr (i.e. equals roughtly at equal levels) or over equipping and MOB difficulty incerases must both be killed at same time. Only way to really balance all the issues at once.
Profit
Profit, you say you have to twink in order to compete with mobs, I disagree. If mobs truly were geared to be a challenge to twinkers, then my twinked lvl 81 character (all earned by me and perfectly legit, thx) wouldn't be able to take on deep reds. When he wasn't twinked he took on yellows and sometimes oranges. I really don't see the imbalance that you are talking about. In fact I consider it reasonably balanced as it is. Putting in an active requirement check would only serve to disrupt the balance that exists.
My very first character was a metaphysicist, and that was when MP's were still very weak. I had crappy equipment and spent IP in ALL the wrong places, yet I was still able to get to lvl 37 without much problem, and could have gone further. At that point it was difficult for me to fight a yellow, but I had a much better grasp of the game and started over, avoiding a lot of the mistakes I had made in the past, and haven't had a problem with mob difficulty since.
Bottom line, mobs aren't that tough, if people have as much problem as you say they are then maybe they should do something different, games aren't supposed to be a cakewalk you know. Pretty much everyone I know can solo oranges, a lot of them can solo reds.
As for mobs and pc's having the same HP, that would completely ruin PvM. If 6 lvl 30 people only have to do 1000 damage to kill a mob the fight will only last 2, maybe 3 seconds. If they reduce mob HP, then they would have to reduce PC damage, so we'd be in the same boat just with different numbers, and there really wouldn't be a difference.
Well, you're asking a for rather large nerf. You probably don't understand the scale you're dealing with. 85% of the 70+ player base uses buffs to wear their armor. You know what? Nerfing armor and weapons like that defeats ENTIRELY the purpose of stat buffs. 12 points in your intelligence skill means 3 points of computer literacy, which is utterly, utterly worthless. Doctors will become poor, through lack of clients for iron circle and enlarge. Twinks do not ruin PVP, people who cannot beat twinkers ruin pvp. It is not impossible to beat a good twinker, just get a bunch of your friends together and do the whole "angry mob" routine. Not every fight has to be a one on one duel. I'd laugh at anyone who thinks PVP is nothing but one on one fights. PVP is about big groups of angry masses, beating the crap out of each other for fun. Don't cry "nerf" everytime you get defeated, learn from your mistakes, get better gear, get a bunch of friends together, whatever. Everquest was ruined by whiney people on the safehouse boards, let's not turn into them shall we?
All a matter of perspective....
A few rebuttal poitns...Originally posted by Sandrix
Profit, you say you have to twink in order to compete with mobs, I disagree. If mobs truly were geared to be a challenge to twinkers, then my twinked lvl 81 character (all earned by me and perfectly legit, thx) wouldn't be able to take on deep reds. When he wasn't twinked he took on yellows and sometimes oranges. I really don't see the imbalance that you are talking about. In fact I consider it reasonably balanced as it is. Putting in an active requirement check would only serve to disrupt the balance that exists.
My very first character was a metaphysicist, and that was when MP's were still very weak. I had crappy equipment and spent IP in ALL the wrong places, yet I was still able to get to lvl 37 without much problem, and could have gone further. At that point it was difficult for me to fight a yellow, but I had a much better grasp of the game and started over, avoiding a lot of the mistakes I had made in the past, and haven't had a problem with mob difficulty since.
Bottom line, mobs aren't that tough, if people have as much problem as you say they are then maybe they should do something different, games aren't supposed to be a cakewalk you know. Pretty much everyone I know can solo oranges, a lot of them can solo reds.
As for mobs and pc's having the same HP, that would completely ruin PvM. If 6 lvl 30 people only have to do 1000 damage to kill a mob the fight will only last 2, maybe 3 seconds. If they reduce mob HP, then they would have to reduce PC damage, so we'd be in the same boat just with different numbers, and there really wouldn't be a difference.
One, how juied up is your level 81? What gear quality is he wearing? If you say numbers with triple digits (not sayign you are Sandrix, being hypothetical), that is WHY you are taking on reds and oranges. Remember how we are supposed to beat yllow 50% of the time according ot the POD? You just supported the example i was making in your counter arguemnt. For those of us NOT using gear with 20 extra ql's to our level, we can't keep up. Certainly in non-combat dominatn classes. If your first character was an MP several patches ago then the MOB's were easier several patches ago. Really changes the comparison.
Try fighting guys with gear around your level and make sure you are using things you can self equip. It's a whole different fight.
I know what I am saying has a global impact. Truth is, my hope is that such a change would not be a nerf, but a global boost to bring everyone in line. Please note, i NEVER say to change one thing without compensating the other direction. But maintenance of the scenario i describe is so much easier for balance tweaking than it is at present as there is just not a benchmark that any player views as consistent.
If the basic equation that has been made known of 2x dam potential and x Hp's for PC's and x dam potential and 2x HP's for MOB's is true, then only by bring these values in line can we hope for realy game balance. Let us kill any given mook in a short time span, then give more of them to fight? This was supposed to be a war for heroes and villains. Why is it that even a few greys is a legitmate threat to some character classes then? I mean, not much of a hero there who is nibbled to death no?
Profit
My enforcer is using ql 85-90 armor, self equipped. QL 110 implants, all self equipped with an omni medsuit, general treatment buff and general attribute buffs, and the only thing on my character which has been buffed to equip is my weapon, a 132 haxor. And really, to be honest, it doesn't do very much more damage than a haxor that I could equip myself (I'm only like 20 points short on it, and damage is largely determined by attack rating anyway.) This is how I take on reds.
Back when I didn't consider myself twinked, I had the same armor, a ql 112 haxor (equipped with a trader buff) and just a few ql 90 implants, and was able to take on yellows and sometimes oranges. The only real difference is my implants, instead of having a few odd implants here and there, I have 11 implants and 32 nanoclusters total, all of them tailored to match the attributes that I have maxed (and all self-equipped.) Total bill on implants alone: 3 million +
And yet with all that I dueled an enforcer who self-equipped his 2h blunt weapons and he smoked me like a cheap cigar.
I really don't think that buffing to equip would change all that much. It would just remove a feature of the game that really encourages cooperation between players. It wouldn't be the key balancing factor or some such thing. Mob balance is just fine how it is, and pvp balance is getting closer and closer. The drastic changes you suggest would basically scrap all the progress made so far and we'd have to start from scratch. Wasted ip, wasted money, wasted time.
About PoD - its supossed to show you how many chance have AVERAGE character to win fight. Now here is the question - What is the average character and what stats he have? Funcom decided what average char is a char from casual player who dont's have so good armour and weapon (and dont went the very best way to develop skills of the char) - also not ubertwinked. Where is no way to consider others. Now if you have better equipment / player skill than that average player - you must be able to solo oranges/reds pretty easy. If you want make so what every lvl 50 char have very some equipment and stats - you are not RPG player. In good RPG all player have different stats and equipment - someone better, someone worse . Its good and make RPG fun.
Over(uber)-equiping is a problem. There are three situations of over-equiping. PvM, Post-75 PvP, and Pre-75 PvP. Of the three only the Pre-75 PvP over-equiping is a sever problem. I have a solution that can address the last and leave the first two alone.
In PvM, you want to be able to over-equip to more effectively fight the mobs. So over-equiping in this case is fine.
In Post-75 PvP, you want to level the playing field. Lets face it a level 80 wants/needs to be able to over-equip to take on that level 176. So over-equiping in this case is fine.
In Pre-75 PvP, over-equiping is a sever problem. It has been gone over in this thread and others so I won't go into it here. Lets just say it's bad, very bad.
My solution is simple and targets only the Pre-75 imblance. Add a comparison check of character level to equipment level before the PvP allowed combat level check.
If WepLvl is greater than CharLvl+25 then PvPLvl=WepLvl otherwise PvPLvl=CharLvl. What this means is if the weapon is greater in quality level than would be expected to equip with self buffs it becomes your level for determining PvP.
e.g. A level 35 Agent equip with a QL 93 Gripo is considered level 93 for PvP combat. So he is fighting the Post-75 PvP crowd and not terrorizing the pre-75 folks. A level 93 with a QL 35 weapon is still level 93 for PvP.
If you want to carry a big boys gun you must play with the big boys.
This is the easiest and simplest solutions I can think of that still allows over-equiping but solves the problem and does not change other aspects of the game.
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Re: to Profit
I'm trying to make sure i understand your mesage but end was a bit garbledOriginally posted by Chromatorg
About PoD - its supossed to show you how many chance have AVERAGE character to win fight. Now here is the question - What is the average character and what stats he have? Funcom decided what average char is a char from casual player who dont's have so good armour and weapon (and dont went the very best way to develop skills of the char) - also not ubertwinked. Where is no way to consider others. Now if you have better equipment / player skill than that average player - you must be able to solo oranges/reds pretty easy. If you want make so what every lvl 50 char have very some equipment and stats - you are not RPG player. In good RPG all player have different stats and equipment - someone better, someone worse . Its good and make RPG fun.
RPG stand for Role, not ROLL, playing game. This means that the focus of the games is meant to be interaction and character story arc. Not find them, kill tehm take their stuff. While I agree the latter is the norm for RPG's on computers, that is unfortunate. Dungeon hack, is not an RPG though it uses an RPG style statistical model.
In any case, you supported my point albeit accidentally. The POD was based on averages. That means, the _expected values_ of players, some higher, some lower. How intriguning that teh large bulk of players are hitting gear leevls higher than this average by popular perception. How similarly curious that these same over average characters are reporting consistently getting killed by something, according to your argument, they should be able to kill more easily because they are well above the average.
Over equipping is a problem and you just explained why.
Profit
you are correct here, pre lvl 75 a well twinked character *used* to be able to just go nuts in some cases ... that's why the comp lit buff nerf occured.In Pre-75 PvP, over-equiping is a sever problem. It has been gone over in this thread and others so I won't go into it here. Lets just say it's bad, very bad.
now the only low lvl people who can be *severely* tweaked are the ones who did it pre-comp lit nerf *and* refuse to ever lvl again to stay that way. Sure some of them will probably do this, but if you are a normal player they wont even affect your experience for long, you will simply level out of their attack range.
I dont think changing the whole way the game works because a few people got some crazily twinked characters equipped before comp lit nerf is worth it. Heck i bet more of thoose people will eventually get sick of bein lvl 30 or whatever and lvl on up than you think
Mysaad, you have a good idea brewing there. I only have one complaint against it. It's the same complaint I've had when people were suggesting putting item QL caps according to title level.
I once had an enforcer, back in the days of mass hammer usage, that used, of course, a sledgehammer. He was about as cookie cutter as an atrox enforcer could be. I was easily, EASILY equipping hammers well above my level, without a single buff. There was a point where I was lvl15, using a level 32 hammer. With not even a general 2h blunt buff. So your suggestion, while almost workable, is still not fair to certain groups of players.
Good idea though, if it can be worked around legitimately "over-equipped" players.
Catch ya planetside.
You guys are really getting stupid on me.
"Over equiping on PvM is fine!"
"Over equiping on PvP pre 75 is the devil's work!"
"Over equiping on PvP post 75 is fine!"
Why the hell would it be fine to over equip on Mobs and after level 75, yet not before 75? That's just plain stupid.
Alright, if you're so content about EVERYTING having its place in this game, and over equiping throwing everything off the norm, think about the mob's perspective. The mob's thinking, "wow, this player is uber equipped, and he's grey to me. I think I might die" Well then good, YOU DID YOUR JOB. This reflects EVERY PERSON, not just the mobs.
Think about it, will you? As far as PvP goes, it's all survival of the fitest. Only the strong survive. Have you heard of these quotes before? I'm sure you have.
No one is FORCING you to PvP, you just make that stupid ignorant decision when you step inside the 25% zone with your QL 5 Cyber Armor on expecting a win.
What Sandrix said, I couldnt have said it better myself. Buff your character to duel. Uber your character to his full potential. You deserve your uber-ness and player killing ability with all the time and effort you put into your character.
But now, thanks to this latest patch, everyone hits for ****, a level 75 Doc/Mp/MA can beat a level 150 Enforcer, Soldier, etc AND THIS ISNT RIGHT.
This goes out to all Funcom officials :
There was never this much disgust and hatred over PvP since the patch was implimented. You are NOT making your paying customers happy. Change the PvP system back to how it was, where the inheret PvP classes were SUPPOSE to win PvP rounds, not because they cant heal.
The entire idea of 40% cap'ed specials is absurd. You're telling me that level 200 Soldier, with a QL 200 Flashpoint, is going to FA some level 75 Fixer for 300 damage? THIS MAKES NO SENSE. MAs and Enforcers should be upset the most. Their Dimach hits as hard as their Brawls, and cycles every half our. Once again, THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
Damage only being done at 50%? Why? So the duels will last longer? Duels were fine how they were, lasting 10-15 seconds, EXACTLY HOW LONG A SOLO AGAINST A MOB WOULD BE.
Range? Why deconstruct range? Everything was perfect how it was.
PLEASE FUNCOM, CHANGE THE PVP BACK TO WHAT IT ONCE WAS, WHERE THE INHERET DUELING PROFESSIONS ACTULLY WON THEIR DUELS.
If not, please, PLEASE give us some word as how your PvP is going to be finalized. I want to know if I should delete my level 80 Sodier right now and make a PvPing Doc or MP.
So Zeth...
How many hours and credits did you burn to twink your character? hehe
Please sho me where that is admitted? And if that is true, what is the value of all these 3 minute trader buffs that super increase your skills? Please explain that to me? Yes, I really want to know.They DID intend you to constantly meet the requirements in order to use an item. They have admitted that, end of story
I personally self equip my weapons and I get at most an iron circle from a doc for my armor (what else is there besides my ownbuffs and that silly pillow I have). Now I see why people overequip and I never turn down a greybee looking for a brutal thug. All he is trying to do is be the best he can, and that is that.
Your statement is completely unvalidateable. And the evidence (trader buffs) suggest that in fact you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about.
I self equip, come see me if you dont beleive it, and I think that in itself goes to show that it is not so evil to overequip. Heck, if the fixer I play with did not overequip than the 50hp damage cap that he has right now would be more like 20. That is insane.
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I would have to say that this is an typicall example of how an flame should not look like. You need to think things through and calm down before you try to write an flame... Im sorry but I would rate this flame with an 1. Aggression is to high, grammar and cursing isnt to well planned... Maybe he has an point somewhere in there but I dont even want to find it. - Centurion3
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