Trader drains Please fix

[Jekonam]

Hmmm, i wouldnt call dueling a trader easy. From my point of view as a 170 enf its all decided in first second of a duel. If this silly LE nano that takes out everything lands in a first try im just dead most of the time as it is followed by a drain that just lands. Therefore i dont duel traders anymore as i find it boring. The main problem are drains in mass pvp. They just land way to often for a predrained trader and once they land they make most professions useless, they cant be removed, they are spammable etc. basicly once it lands its game over. And dont say "get more nr" as its just impossible to have enough NR at lower levels.

Altho i must admit im not the best at playing enf

I can guarantee you that well geared enfo can **** trader extremely fast, ask deltaforces "Get more NR" argument sadly is true here. Divest lands easily, but plunder doesn't. In a duel, we don't take the risk to spam plunder and decrease our healing if you have a high NR. With high NR you, you most probably will have divest in your ncu, but that is enough to kill the trader with proper equipment. This is why I have very tough duels against advies, which are usually nr1.

As I said any "hard dd" profession @ 170 can alpha trader easily. 170 agent targets you on open pvp and you are most likely dead.

And for me personally, I have max AR setup. My alpha is strong, I have setuped myself to kill my opponent even with 1 drain, or none.

[Captian]

I'm aware of how things work Vs a good trader, and I've beaten some of the best (ask skoggshuggaro about his trader v my MA (captiansma). I beat him at 150 and he's 165 iirc. However, the "get more NR" argument is invalid as soldiers can't get enough NR even with NR perked. NR 1 or 2 only gets us barely over 1k unless we fully twink out for it which hinders our ar and makes us useless in almost every situation. The alpha argument is valid however, it's nearly impossible being that:

1.) Even with 1800-1830 AR, I still can't perk some traders before they drain me (non trox even)
2.) AS, burst, Fa can't hit them enough
3.) we don't have stuns (that are reliable)
4.) we truly don't have that big of an alpha which consists of: As, burst, and fa then crappy perks (that you easily out heal and take forever to fire off) + kizzermole gumboil/lava caps (if I can even use them by that time because you can't use them during perks running)
5.) If we start off with assault rifle to get the heavy hits, shutdown skills makes it OE enough to not be useful at all and making swapping to AS gun (if you haven't started already) impossible
6.) Good traders can almost alpha soldiers quicker than soldiers can alpha traders
7.)Alb wen wen might have been the dumbest thing FC gave traders aside from AS

Yes, even the good ones do die, I'm not saying they don't. However, to make a profession that completely shuts down any twink, regardless of how twinked even if the trader is fr00b is just silly. (not saying a fr00b beat me, but they can land drains on me which makes me useless) I understand traders are a soldiers nemesis, but nemesis doesn't mean impossible and that's how it is. Also, I'm not saying this just from a soldier's point of view, I'm saying this from a MA's pov as well. Ma's do have enough NR to resist a lot of drains, but even with over 2k NR, I was still hit by drains by traders (not as much I admit, but fairly often). Through drains, I was unable to use my good heal (I still could use my lower one, but I couldn't out heal the dps the trader who could now perk me through 2300 evade skill and 500ish aad was doing)

The drains are simply overpowered and need to be reworked. Stop denying that they aren't OP when everyone else (including some traders) see otherwise. Instead help us fix them so that it's fair for everyone.

[Moonbolt]

this is actually not true because once you finish doing your inital attacks (Fa burst, AS) you want to be able to start doing more regular shot damage+ having assault rifle equipped gives you more AR to perk the trader with

how the hell are u goin to perk a trader with 100 AR at TL 5..... u need the AS to keep doin any kind of dmg to him...

[Jekonam]

I'm aware of how things work Vs a good trader, and I've beaten some of the best (ask skoggshuggaro about his trader v my MA (captiansma). I beat him at 150 and he's 165 iirc. However, the "get more NR" argument is invalid as soldiers can't get enough NR even with NR perked. NR 1 or 2 only gets us barely over 1k unless we fully twink out for it which hinders our ar and makes us useless in almost every situation. The alpha argument is valid however, it's nearly impossible being that:

1.) Even with 1800-1830 AR, I still can't perk some traders before they drain me (non trox even)
2.) AS, burst, Fa can't hit them enough
3.) we don't have stuns (that are reliable)
4.) we truly don't have that big of an alpha which consists of: As, burst, and fa then crappy perks (that you easily out heal and take forever to fire off) + kizzermole gumboil/lava caps (if I can even use them by that time because you can't use them during perks running)
5.) If we start off with assault rifle to get the heavy hits, shutdown skills makes it OE enough to not be useful at all and making swapping to AS gun (if you haven't started already) impossible
6.) Good traders can almost alpha soldiers quicker than soldiers can alpha traders
7.)Alb wen wen might have been the dumbest thing FC gave traders aside from AS

Yes, even the good ones do die, I'm not saying they don't. However, to make a profession that completely shuts down any twink, regardless of how twinked even if the trader is fr00b is just silly. (not saying a fr00b beat me, but they can land drains on me which makes me useless) I understand traders are a soldiers nemesis, but nemesis doesn't mean impossible and that's how it is. Also, I'm not saying this just from a soldier's point of view, I'm saying this from a MA's pov as well. Ma's do have enough NR to resist a lot of drains, but even with over 2k NR, I was still hit by drains by traders (not as much I admit, but fairly often). Through drains, I was unable to use my good heal (I still could use my lower one, but I couldn't out heal the dps the trader who could now perk me through 2300 evade skill and 500ish aad was doing)

The drains are simply overpowered and need to be reworked. Stop denying that they aren't OP when everyone else (including some traders) see otherwise. Instead help us fix them so that it's fair for everyone.

Drains are not certainly simply overpowered in the way that you are suggesting. If you would be arguing about the length of the debuff, you could make a proper point, but just because you get owned by a trader does not automatically mean that drains are overpowered.

I can argue that only fully twinked trader can/can't beat the best nt's, enfos, agents (if ever), advies,docs and even keepers. There are others too. And those matches are not easy. In fact either side can win, against agent, the possibility to win is close to zero (this is good agent, such as Siukon).

Do you have a slightest idea what would happen to traders if the drains would be tuned down? Its not at all that simple.

If you had 2k NR, I can guarantee that plunder wont touch you unless you are extremely unlucky, or the trader was seriously nanoskill twinked (which i.e. I am not).

Your points are odd for me, because if you have played MA at tl5, you should know perfectly well that trader is in fact at disadvantage against an MA. MA's eat traders (in duel), they have huge damage if twinked properly. UWOS is like the ultimate trader shield.

NT can nuke me in couple of seconds, double drained, but I don't blame to nerf NT's. Thats how the food chain just works. There has to be diversity and disadvantage/advantage against different professions, you are complaining about your nemesis profession. You have a chance, learn, practise,retwink, adapt, surprise. Its not impossible

[Captian]

to moonbolt, most traders start the duel with shutdown skills which makes your SPB go OE and makes your burst and FA miss. As doesn't miss and isn't effected by skill drains. When you alpha with the AS first, as soon as the duel starts the equip to the SPB is already just about finished (start equipping right as timer says 3 because it's a 3 sec equip time) and as soon as the duel starts, AS burst FA (the burst fa follows the time of the shutdown skills) which means that you have a better chance of doing more damage and perking them. I've tried this every way possible and this is the better choice. BTW, AS comes back after TMS is done so you only get one shot to use it, and if the procs hit in the time you're using the as gun and the time you need to swap to SPB, you probably won't be able to swap back because that's around -640 to your attack skills.

To Jeko, I do know how good MA's are versus traders. However as I said before, trader drains land through over 2k NR and not just one, but both of them. This has happened to me not only V a couple, but nearly every trader I've dueled. Also, once drained, a MA loses most of it's alpha and not only that but can't perk at all (even after hitting them with flower and using MM).

As far as retwinking and adapting, I've tried all that. I've asked traders, other soldiers, other people even what to do when everything I came up with didn't work. No one can come up with something that works. The most I can alpha a trader is to 25% and then like I said, it's all down hill because your heal heals one full bubble every time it's used regardless of the reflects on the target. I even went so far as to get a kyr'ozch energy carbine as that attacks duck explosion instead of dodge. Nothing works

When it comes to the repercussions to what would happen if the drains would be fixed, I can tell you what would happen. Things would be more balanced, as it is, traders are THE BEST pvp prof at TL 5 as proven by the pvp contest in which skogs trader won V some huge names. ( I perked NR 2 to beat him) I will point out that the main reason that you lose to those profs is because they have no miss attacks and you don't know how to deal with. enfo, advy have sa; agents have capped recharge on AS (hints the nickname AS monkey) docs have AS guns at their disposal, usually the snakemaster is the choice weapon on RK 2. The difference between the things you bring up with trader V other profs, is that you always have a chance of winning. Soldiers do not unless the trader is afk when the duel starts. Every other prof I have beaten, I have never beaten a trader at TL 5 aside from the one in pred armor as a soldier. I'm not just QQing over 1 loss either, I would wager that over 35 of my duel losses are from various traders and me trying different things on them. Duel after duel, its the same thing.

Also, when it comes to traders being my nemasis, NT's are my nemasis as well, and I can deal with them much easier than traders. The may be able to nuke the crap out of my health but I can get around that and kill them usually.

Or if you're still denying that trader drains aren't OP and that I can infact kill them with my alpha, consider this: I can dump my alpha out in under 8 secs (usually about 7 seconds) in that time, I do the following:
Aimed shot
Burst
Full Auto
Tracer followed by contained burst
laser paint (for extra hitting)
Fuzz followed by nano feast
weapon bash
clip fever
and I try to use kizzers/lava caps but I'm usually too drained to use them by then

If you can find somewhere where I can do more damage to alpha them, because NR isn't an option, then I will stop pursuing this. Until then stop saying they aren't OP and face reality. The only people here who are ok with them are traders who want to hug their precious OP drains. It's the same as crats and the stun proc, it's incredibly OP but why would they admit that it's OP if it helps them win without any skill whatsoever?

I will also ask again, why is it fair that a TL 5 trader can be in almost nothing and beat a nearly finished TL 5 soldier with over a bil put into it without trying at all? Nemesis is a big step up on the person it's used against, but it's not an excuse. Especially considering that traders aren't really the Nemesis of soldiers as their "nem nano" works on everyone that has reflects now.

[Teramut]

I'm aware of how things work Vs a good trader, and I've beaten some of the best (ask skoggshuggaro about his trader v my MA (captiansma). I beat him at 150 and he's 165 iirc.

I do agree that MA's should be nerfed to hell as they are too overpowered!

[Captian]

just dueled another trader, this time he was 150, he beat me again ofc. He has over 1400 dodge...why do you need something to nerf someone elses ar by 1200 when you have about the same evades as all the other evade profs?

To teramut: L2 troll better and read the entire posts, I was NR 2 perked at 150 which is stupid and was clearly only for that duel.

[Saetos]

Fine, we'll just throw toilet paper at you and hope that does something.

How do you want this stuff fixed, keeping in mind that PVM Traders use the same drains your godsworn enemies do? Any severe nerfs to drains hit the PVM Traders the hardest.

[Jekonam]

Sorry, but I can't agree with you when I weight your argument. TL5 trader the best pvp profession? What is your argument for that? In my opinion tl5 trader is the best open pvp profession if played right. Duel profession? Can be one of the best, but not the best currently. Dafunky (who I consider to be only tl5 trader atm at rk2 to challenge me | Dedischa is good for 150, but not enough to kill 164/170) probably disagrees with me, but people have different opinions.

Haii used to pwn pretty much everyone on tl5. He was one soldier to watch out. As a 150, I could never ever have won Haii in duel.

Duel siukon and you can probably understand why its a bad situation to have 5,5k hp

What is your soljas name/level btw?

[Jekonam]

just dueled another trader, this time he was 150, he beat me again ofc. He has over 1400 dodge...why do you need something to nerf someone elses ar by 1200 when you have about the same evades as all the other evade profs?

To teramut: L2 troll better and read the entire posts, I was NR 2 perked at 150 which is stupid and was clearly only for that duel.

1400 dodge at 150? He is sacrificing somewhere or lying.

[Captian]

my favorite one atm is making one trader debuff line pvm only and keeping the other PVP as well as keeping the procs because one trader drain is -250 attack skills and -150 aao for a total of -400 attack skills, the proc would be if I'm not mistaken -140ish attack skills and -75ish AAO for a total of -215 ar. this would be about the same as having Dof/limber with the evades you guys have without making it stupidly overpowered as it is now. My reasoning behind this is because while Dof/limber is good, limber is only 200 and dof 800. So for logical reasons I'll assume that it's a trader and a advy with 1400 evades each.

a advy with 1400 evades has a "down time" with limber up (if he's cycleing his evades right) for 1600 evades

a trader will always have 1400 evades, but you should add about 400 more on it because that's how much you're draining from your target making you seem like you have 1800 evades all the time, with a chance for proc to make it seem like you have dof.

Clearly the trader one is still better as it has the ability to lower the damage and effectiveness of the target but without completely crippling the target for 3 minutes if the target even makes it out alive.

[Captian]

My argument for trader being the best pvp profession at TL 5 is weighted based on the TL 5 duel contest that maxisfix threw a little while back. Since then, no new items have come out or perk /nano changes (aside from borrow reflect being extended to more than soldiers and lowering only 20 reflects) details here: http://www.phpbbplanet.com/tl5/viewt...184&mforum=tl5

[agentwolve]

any point you may have had has been drowned out by your own exaggeration

[Armus]

Yes, yes, yes there is nothing wrong with a trader being able to get my tl5 soldier from 1930 AR to 800 in 12 seconds.

It IS reasonable!

Totally!

I mean, my soldier is nr1 so I do have a MASSIVE NR of 1100. So I mean. It's just totally reasonable that these nanos have to be so overpowered since they are soooo hard to land.

Totally!

[Lupusceleri]

Oh dear. ;p

Problems with Traders, just some brainstorming:

- Black and White scenario. Either you land the first drain during SDS and win, or you get countered and after SDS runs out you get alpha'd (which you may potentially survive).
^ Possible fix; give the Trader a really short-term emergency defense that doesn't check NR, but remove SDS.

- Debuff duration. Those drains last way too long, and once you're double drained, there is NO WAY you can turn the fight around in your favor. Right now two professions have drain removal perks; Fixer and Doctor, but Fixers can't afford to spend perks on Worm ICE at TL5 and Doctors don't have an alpha.
^ Possible fix; give more professions access to removal tools, or even consider making Battle Prepared Virus Scanners that you can use once every 3 minutes which will insta-remove, say, half or 3/4 of a drain.
^ Possible fix; make the drains last much shorter.

- Weapons going OE. This means that, even IF you were to land a lucky regular hit, it won't hurt the Trader at all.
^ Possible fix; make the drains only remove AAO rather than draining the actual skills. It offers a major boost to PvM trader performance, and gives the PvP opponent a chance even after the drains have landed.

- Drain laddering. Because of the ability to get sickeningly high nanoskills, Trader drains are virtually irresistible at lower levels.
^ Possible fix; consider removing the nanoskills transfer to avoid laddering, give the trader something else in return (idk some AAD from draining stuff?). NR would finally have some influence, and the Trader becomes a little more robust to "adds" when under attack.

[Notcrattey]

- Weapons going OE. This means that, even IF you were to land a lucky regular hit, it won't hurt the Trader at all.
^ Possible fix; make the drains only remove AAO rather than draining the actual skills. It offers a major boost to PvM trader performance, and gives the PvP opponent a chance even after the drains have landed.

This would fix so many things on so many levels.

[Saetos]

This would fix so many things on so many levels.

You know, I'm kinda feeling this suggestion too. This fix would also trickle down to the lower title levels as well, but would not hurt (in fact, would help immensely) PVM Traders.

[Jekonam]

Like I said, drain duration could be lowered quite frankly -50% without problems. Drains in essence are traders core of survival so we have to be extremely careful. I would not nerf the benefit that trader is gaining from drains, but even if you decrease the offensive -skills , we will be greatly nerfed in duels.

Atleast in tl5 zone traders are so vulnerable for damage. My fingers and toes don't even begin to count the times when Agent/NT/Enfo/Advy has wtfpwnt1234 my poor little 5,5k healthbar

[Captian]

You also said that your in a AR and alpha setup, that doesn't mean that everyone else is.

[Ciex]

We could use virus scanners that dont require sitting down. The most silly situation is a trader that drains his opponent and keeps him rooted so he cant even use those scanners.

@ 5k HP trader.
What exactly stops you from having 10k? Low hp setup is your own choice.