What stats should the enforcer profession have?

[Gatester]

This thread is for non-enforcers to post the ideal stats for the enforcer profession. With constant requests for nerfs but never anyone posting actual skill levels, it is only fair that we request of you what stats would be balanced for an enforcer. You will recieve no flames from me, I only wish to see where you think enforcers should have strengths and where they should have weaknesses. If any enforcers flame you for what you post I will jump down their throats faster than you can say troll.

The stats I would like to see are:

Max health
Evade/duck/dodge
AAD
Nano Resist
Attack Rating
Healing per minute
Runspeed
Absorb levels (this might be harder but it may be the only strength anyone gives us)
Rage lockout duration (I won't be upset if you skip this one)
Alpha damage (damage over 8 seconds should suffice)
Stun number
Stun duration during alpha
Regular hits damage or Damage per minute


This is a lengthy request, but I feel that everyone who constantly wants to weaken enforcers should support it with what they feel would be balanced. I am expecting trends of players who have similar professions that will account for the reasons they die, so do not expect me to be upset with anyone for posting numbers that reflect that. I would also reccomend this for other professions as I believe that despite the flaming and trolling that will follow, it will be a somewhat enlightening discussion.

[Raggy]

Max health - 33000 - 35000
Evade/duck/dodge - 1.8k - 2k
AAD - 1k - 1.1k
Nano Resist - 1.7k - 2k
Attack Rating - 3.5k - 3.8k
Healing per minute - 3 - 5k
Runspeed - 1.8k~
Absorb levels - 3K~
Rage lockout duration - 45s - 1min
Alpha damage - 7k-9k
Stun number - 2
Stun duration during alpha - 2s - 3s
Regular hits damage or Damage per minute - 2.2k-2.5k Reg hits after PvP Reduction.

My reasoning for this is as follows.

Enforcers are there to take punishment and deal it out, they are lumbering towers of flesh, usually carrying something heavy to hit you over the head with. Because of this, they evade less and run slower. But on the other hand, can take hell of a beating and dish it out too.

I would like to see Enfos have a low runspeed because at the moment they currently can stick to a Fixer in PvP. This is wrong. It's like watching a fat guy outrun an Olympic Athlete, totally inaccurate. To counter the imminent 'How can we catch people now!?' whines, you still have Rage, the downside being that Rage would be on a 45s ish lockout making it a more situational ability rather than something you spam. Rage would also come with the CC breaking ability it has now but also with an added 4 or 5s CC immunity buff, giving you time to get close enough to pop a stun and start your alpha. Rage +Runspeed would take you to the Cap for the duration of 3s.

Now, the alpha. You see that it is far from strong, it's because it's made up for in your regular hits. I cannot see a 25ft Tall Giant of Muscles doing any form of reflex abilities which they have now, in the form of fast casting perks. The Regulars would land often thanks to the nearly 4k AR and if Stuns were used correctly, nearly always ensure a kill on a player who isn't paying attention and seriously hurt someone who is.

Ok, Nano Resist. NR would be at 2k Max and Rage would not give NR. Simple fact of the matter being there is alot of castable debuffs in the game that alot of proffessions rely on, having 3k+ NR is a joke and is broken, simple as.

Absorbs would be on a local cooldown of 20-30s and would consume 1/4th of your nanopool, regardless of -NanoCost%. Bio Coon would share the same line. So you can only choose one for the lockout duration. For E.G: Bio Coon, Lockout of 20/30s, Normal Absorbs, Lockout, Normal Absorbs, Lockout.


Go on, tear me to bits about it.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The stats I would like to see are:

Max health 35000-45000
Evade/duck/dodge 1900-2000
AAD 900-1100
Nano Resist 1800 max+rage
Attack Rating 3200-3800
Healing per minute 30000-35000
Runspeed 1800
Absorb levels 1000 layers, 5 layer/1 nano pool (so 200 cost on best absorb)<---lots of absorbs. shorter cast time too+10 second lockout.
Rage lockout duration 40 seconds
Alpha damage 20000 PVP dmg.
Stun number 2-3
Stun duration during alpha 3-4
Regular hits damage or Damage per minute 2.4-2.8 large crits (6k)

.

I feel the same as raggeh.

IMO, enfs should have very limited capacity for rage-running. the rage should have a longer lockout, with 80% or so CC resists plus NR, but, the rage should only last about 10-15 seconds, then 30 second lock out after it runs out.

I'd liek to see the challenger cooldown shortened by 50% but I'd also like to see challenger give a crit % maybe 18% or so on highest challenger, also increase cost on all challengers. (basically, 1 per fight, wihtou using OSB's, doing very serious nano management. Challenger should provide a huge benefit, but be very limited in use.

enfs should have limited healing capabilties I used 500 hp/second as per imongo, with a bit tacked on for extra perks etc.

enf weapons should be slower, hit harder, and have decent range, like, 10m almost, so they can still hit people within a fair radius.

Rage should be rebuilt into a mongo-esque type nano: the initial rage provides 100% break all roots/snares and 80-100% resistance for 10-15 seconds, 800 RS boost, 800 NR boost; then, the residual rage which is activated at the cast provides 4% reflects, 80 damage shield, 400 inits and a self dot and lasts for the duration of the lockout+15s, (15s+30s+15s=60s total)

The idea is: enfs should be massive hulks who can stand and take enormous damage, blocking loads of it with easy to build absorbs and extra 4% reflects (20% reflects total selfed), and high damage shields. Should be able to hit out at larger range due to size and huge weapons. Should hit MUCH harder with regulars and crits. challenger should give crit %. Reduce alpha damage substantially.

I'd like to see enfs who can stand and just defend themselves almost indefinitly vs low damage opponents. a 1k absorb that can be refreshed often should vastly limit the amount of damage take via low damage hits. an enforcer should be able to spam absorbs and block boatloads of damage while staying busy with nano management, but, still be doing ok damage via regulars.

[Gatester]

Those level of evades are evades+AAD I am assuming?

Also for Noobas, I will also assume that your alpha damage includes regular hits, but feel free to correct me on that.


Otherwise I like both posts so far, I will analyze how I think those stats would work for me when I get back from work.

[Captian]

I feel that enforcers have far too much evades. Most enforcers nowadays have enough evades that you have to have at least 3k AR to perk them. A giant lumbering monster of muscle shouldn't be able to dodge out of the way of attacks as well as they do currently.

Rage should be fixed. The reason's why are this: The NR buff, while seeming like a good idea, is a fair bit Overpowered. I'm not saying allow enforcers to get hit by everything every time it's cast but resisting everything isn't exactly fair either. Perhaps make rage run 2 nanos when cast, one that is a short 5 sec NR buff that can't be cast again until the other one which has all the other things rage has and is hostile has finished. This would perhaps make it a little more situational instead of unfair. I also feel that if you're in rage mode, your sole purpose would be for the alpha kill and not defending yourself. I feel that challenger and Rage should be combined into one nano, however, when you use rage you lose as much AAD as you gain in AR.

Runspeed is a little funky. As a whole, the idea of being able to "cap" runspeed is a little silly to say the least, but that's a different thing entirely. As mentioned before, big monsters of muscle shouldn't be able to keep up with olympic athletes. However, they shouldn't be so slow that they can be kited by anyone either though. My idea is the larger you get, the larger your runspeed debuff. For example (these are made up figures) for every 10% in size increase, 10% runspeed debuff.

I believe that enforcers have far too big of an alpha with the defensive setup that most use. They only gain things in that setup without trading too much. over 3k evades shouldn't be obtainable while also having over 3.5k AR.

As far as the healing and the HP and all that, I don't have an issue with it. I don't see it as being overpowered but that might be just me.

[Notcrattey]

I feel that enforcers have far too much evades. Most enforcers nowadays have enough evades that you have to have at least 3k AR to

That's quite an extreme example, and hardly the "norm"

Also is quite circumstantial; what if there was a crat? what if highway was up? what if wit was up? what if they have 12man/DB1 or 2 buffs?

[kabulla]

I feel that enforcers have far too much evades. Most enforcers nowadays have enough evades that you have to have at least 3k AR to perk them. A giant lumbering monster of muscle shouldn't be able to dodge out of the way of attacks as well as they do currently.

your saying this as if 3k AR is some absurd number... tbh with the changes to absorbs enfo's need the def

seeing as the majority of professions in AO can get/have 3k+ AR I don;t see a issue with 3k def on a enfo

[Djantro]

Personnal concern from a NT's PoV is the chain stunning, it's not about stats really. It's the only thing that doesn't feel right in my eyes.

Of course some other stats nerfing could indirectly renders this concern obsolet, like a nerf to NR giving us the chance to try rooting straight at start of the engagment instead of CBing twice prior to that, or a nerf to enfo's HP/absorb/healing so that popping NBG right at start of the engagment gives you the opportunity to beat the enfo within 25 seconds of NBG's duration.

But the true problem in design are, in my opinion, stuns.

Stuns : Even with free movments, they last at least 2 seconds or so, there 2 of em at least, and the possibility for fear. What else there is, brawl chance to stun, maybe some other stuff, even if i don't know details i d estimate it to roughly 5 to 10 seconds of inability to do anything. I save my MoR for enfos generally but fear is over the top in such a case (you popped MoR, enfo catch ya on that and pop fear to bypass your MoR).

As pointed in the other thread, enfo alpha does kill a lot of people (for instance, NTs) in a few seconds. It seems quite unfair to me that during that short period of time during which the damage is very high, your ability to react is totally nerfed by said stuns & fear.

I ll compare that to crat situation pre stuns-proc nerf. A crat chain stunning was lot longer then enfo's abilities to do so, but the dmg dealt by the crat was scaled down respectivly, and the 20/30K damage enfos deals in a few seconds, crats was dealing it in 20, 30 or more seconds.

Fixes :

- Nerf the stuns so they can't be chained. Introduce a cooldown on target, for instance, the same way it is planned for other CCing. Say, after a stun, you immune to any other stuns for 10 sec or so ; exact numbers need to be discussed. The exception could be Fr Str stuns, which couple enfos use, and which in their current design are fine imo.

- Change fear so it breaks on any damage dealt ; it would nerf its offense potential to the snare aspect when it ends, and would still remain viable for defensive use (to escape, to buy time while your opponent has its defense up and during which time you can't dmg him anyway, etc).

[Obtena]

I think a stats based analysis is pretty irrelevant, especially presented to the non-enfo community. Care to repost this in enfo forum? Might get more relevant and insightful discussion there.

[Koizumi]

I think a stats based analysis is pretty irrelevant, especially presented to the non-enfo community. Care to repost this in enfo forum? Might get more relevant and insightful discussion there.

Ask a child how many sweets are healthy for it

[Moonbolt]

Personnal concern from a NT's PoV is the chain stunning, it's not about stats really. It's the only thing that doesn't feel right in my eyes.

firs of all..... if an enforcer chain stun u... it means he popped troll form wich is a 3 sec cast and a -2000 snare before the next 2 stuns are inc. so u got plenty of time to move away from the enf or do something back to him during that time.

Of course some other stats nerfing could indirectly renders this concern obsolet, like a nerf to NR giving us the chance to try rooting straight at start of the engagment instead of CBing twice prior to that, or a nerf to enfo's HP/absorb/healing so that popping NBG right at start of the engagment gives you the opportunity to beat the enfo within 25 seconds of NBG's duration.

i dont realy see the problem with enf stats myself... evryone can perk us. maybe some clan enfs with towers and a full def setup can resist some professions perks when they are running both WiT and Highway but that doesnt last many seconds. and u can pop NBG at the start of the figt then stack CB and run out of range and perma root me with a SBoA.

But the true problem in design are, in my opinion, stuns.

Stuns : Even with free movments, they last at least 2 seconds or so, there 2 of em at least, and the possibility for fear. What else there is, brawl chance to stun, maybe some other stuff, even if i don't know details i d estimate it to roughly 5 to 10 seconds of inability to do anything. I save my MoR for enfos generally but fear is over the top in such a case (you popped MoR, enfo catch ya on that and pop fear to bypass your MoR).

fear has a 2 min CD and isnt used defensively as much as offensively to actually manage to get in range of people. in the 1hb alpha there is only 1 stun.
in troll form there is 2 stuns yes but as i said earlier u need to pop form of troll to use them first and the window is pretty sure to get the stuns off.... they are also based on brawl wich is alot lower AR then our 1hb perks. enforcers do have access to extra stuns to that thru brawler and manners of mongo but they are realy low chance to actually stun the target and frankly they do idiotic low dmg.

As pointed in the other thread, enfo alpha does kill a lot of people (for instance, NTs) in a few seconds. It seems quite unfair to me that during that short period of time during which the damage is very high, your ability to react is totally nerfed by said stuns & fear.

I ll compare that to crat situation pre stuns-proc nerf. A crat chain stunning was lot longer then enfo's abilities to do so, but the dmg dealt by the crat was scaled down respectivly, and the 20/30K damage enfos deals in a few seconds, crats was dealing it in 20, 30 or more seconds.

theres a hughe difference on NTs i meet in BS or open pvp... some dies straight away cause they dont pop NBG and some lives thru my whole alpha just to root me and leave me standing there or rip me apart.

Fixes :

- Nerf the stuns so they can't be chained. Introduce a cooldown on target, for instance, the same way it is planned for other CCing. Say, after a stun, you immune to any other stuns for 10 sec or so ; exact numbers need to be discussed. The exception could be Fr Str stuns, which couple enfos use, and which in their current design are fine imo.

- Change fear so it breaks on any damage dealt ; it would nerf its offense potential to the snare aspect when it ends, and would still remain viable for defensive use (to escape, to buy time while your opponent has its defense up and during which time you can't dmg him anyway, etc).

if u look at the suggest enforcer perk documents....
the stuns all get a 2 sec duration while at the same time they get a 2 secs cast time.... same thing with ALL enfs attack perks.
meaning enforcer stuns will get completly useless since they wont have any real impact in a fight except stopping incomming dmg for 2 sec each.

the fear does break on dmg.... very very fast aswell.... i myself usually let the target run a bit before i start hammering on him after i cast the feared guy cause i wanna look over so that everything is perpared and that i got every buff running that i need to kill the target etc.
thus the fear lasting longer then 3 secs cause i wait with engaging my target untill i choose to do so.

[Obtena]

Likewise, ask someone who doesn't eat sweets how many are healthy for it? ROll your eyes. TBH, FC doesn't balance like this. It's a pretty academic question anyways. At least enfos have a more realistic view of what stats they have and what those stats are capable of than say ... you.

[Avari]

and what those stats are capable of than say ... you.

Not necessarily. No matter the profession you often won't notice the things that don't land on you too often - everyone else does though.

[Obtena]

So even though you might not have an enfo, you can tell me what enfo stats are and how they should change? Interesting.

[Gatester]

Keep in mind, simply saying something is or isn't overpowered is not what is needed for this thread. I am quite sure I can list every stat the enforcer profession has and find where it was called too much at one point or another.

If you only feel one stat is too much, then be specific on that one stat and post a number or range you would feel is fair. If you feel multiple stats are too much, then list them and give numbers you would like to see (a range of values is fine as previous examples had).

I think a stats based analysis is pretty irrelevant, especially presented to the non-enfo community. Care to repost this in enfo forum? Might get more relevant and insightful discussion there.

I have a purpose for the thread which must avoid heated debates between enforcer and non-enforcer players. So anything enforcers want to post here is fine as long as it is level-headed and NOT condusive of arguing, but this is more a thread based on theory and not changes whether or not balancing results from this thread.

Ofc, if you want to repost this for the enforcer community then be my guest as I am sure most of us have ideal stats we would like.

[Djantro]

the fear does break on dmg.... very very fast aswell.... .

I m quite positive the crat Fear breaks instantly on hit, but enfo's one ... i really really doubt. I ve been hit by it a lot of times, and i never felt it broke instantly on damage.

I ll just test it in game quick and post, but it seems quite unclear to me as pointed by many other who state the breaking on hit part is bugged etc.

The fact "1hb alpha has only 1 stun" is quite theorical as well in my opinion ; 2 stuns is a good practical average of what happens in game and is enough to be really really bad. That would be 1hb stun + brawl stun, or troll, or fear etc... The point is that combined with the very high dmg dealt by the enfo during those couple, it is a bit over the top.

[-Klod-]

That's quite an extreme example, and hardly the "norm"

Also is quite circumstantial; what if there was a crat? what if highway was up? what if wit was up? what if they have 12man/DB1 or 2 buffs?

The fact still stands, they should have as much (or even less) evades as, say, doc or engie, selfbuffed.

[Kinkstaah]

Why on earth did you post this thread.

Can we start 13 other threads for uninformed people to post about what stats other classes should have?

Seriously.

The fact of the matter is, enforcer def is nonexistent vs players of the same gear level. The only real 'evade' classes are the ones that can expect to evade almost every perk.

I.e, adv
shade
ma
crat
shield mp
keeper (vs melee)
trader (if they drain their target)

Anyone else's defence does not exist currently. It may as well be about 5. If you were only ever going to PVP against people at endgame gear, enforcers may as well IPR evades.

Anyone who is saying something to the contrary - is simply being outgeared by the Enforcer in question.

Do *agents* have too much def? My agent has more than my enf. But I don't see anyone QQ'ing about super agent evades.

[MachSchau]

This thread really isn't that magnificent and I agree with Obtena. A smart level headed enforcer will already know where he is over-powered and under-powered. Anyone else who doesn't play an enforcer and just deals with them in pvp wont see the big picture of what an enforcer is and isn't capable of.

Also, the problem isn't solely the enforcer's tool set, its game mechanics too and those need to be addressed/discussed first and a solution needs to be presented before you start pre-nerfing things.

But so far, everything said here, in regards to enforcers, I dont agree with and is far from the truth.

[Weltall]

Anyone else's defence does not exist currently. It may as well be about 5. If you were only ever going to PVP against people at endgame gear, enforcers may as well IPR evades.

Cool, go reset your evades then if it's oh so useless, free up some IP! defense against perks isn't all evades/AAD do you nab and yes, even against endgame ppl