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Thread: Enfs and Attack rating

  1. #361
    shades in a def setup that hasnt used the AR drains has pertty low AR.
    blur helps with that some tho.
    but if the shade has the AR drains up their AR is still enough to perk enfs w/o blur if they are in a defensive setup.
    and u are correct shades will get an AR boost from tokenboards and Ai helmet etc.
    so they wont have that problem after that.
    a shade in def setup should be able to perk an enf un pre drained tho after landing blur on them.
    and NTs has more def then enfs.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    As far as Obtena, I have no respect for your ignorance. You simply refuse to look at my setups because I have proved you wrong, but no, go sit in your high and mighty chair of being a professional and reject reality. Realistically, the majority of PVP enfos are in that setup or in a similar setup. Yes, not all enforcers are in that one, but the high end ones who don't suck like you and moon are. The things you're trying to argue is that enfos who haven't invested any time into their toons aren't as good as other profs and people who have spend a heck of a lot of time into them. Any toon who hasn't had any time or money invest in them can't be uber or OP. A professions professional does not mean all knowing. L2 Enf
    You proved nothing other than you can post A (someone else's) setup that's good for duels vs. non-hostile casters. Just because an enfo doesn't have THAT setup means they suck or they haven't 'invested the time' to get it. That kind of thinking is ignorant. Maybe you want TL7 PVP to be an elitest club where only the non-casual players are able to compete. That idea of TL7 PVP would only ensure the death of it, with exception of those people that think the same way. Have fun with your BY jumping in Borealis.

    You are right, being a professional isn't about being all knowing ... It's about being aware of the interests of ALL enfos, not just those that have achieved the setup you are posting. That's why I can ignore your and other people's 'analysis' of OPed enfos. The fact is that even slightly deficient enfos from anything near your setup have very big problems in PVP.

    It's ignorant to not consider the vast majority of enfos that aren't using that setup in the balancing effort.
    It's ridiculous to conclude that, in general, enfos are OPed because that setup exists.
    It's shortsighted to assume that setup will be OPed in the new scheme.

    Shall I continue?
    Last edited by Obtena; Aug 25th, 2010 at 14:24:41.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    1. ermmm then something is wrong with my LE huds on all 3 of my toons cause they try to update even when max upgraded.

    2. i got a 219 shade so i think i know enough about shades. i know that u have to be in an AR setup to perk enfs, i also know that if u pop out of stealth already in an Ar setup u can more or less alpha the enfs right away.
    1. LE HUDs do not try to upgrade after lvl 3 rofl wth man. Try petitioning.

    2. I don't even have a high level shade to know that they do not need to be in an AR setup to perk enfs.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    2. I don't even have a high level shade to know that they do not need to be in an AR setup to perk enfs.
    Depends on the Enforcer.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    your inability to make this setup work shows your ignorance as an enfo
    yeah, that guy calling others "ignornat" or "undergaerd" (with typo on purpose or not, wich is disrespectful anyways) while misunderstanding other's points, whinning/spamming with insultive flamings & ignoring simple tricks (among wich cancelling mongo HP part or swap LE HUD) hilarious

    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    being a professional isn't about being all knowing ... It's about being aware of the interests of ALL enfos (...) It's ridiculous to conclude that, in general, enfos are OPed because that setup exists.
    i don't wanna enter your personnal cybor with ownsauce, but i agree the first part of your quote (...) while the second seems non-sensed.
    what would be ridiculous : to ignore such setups are possible and pretend to balance a profession without taking them in account. would you pretend to balance shades/advys without NR perked setups considered ? what about def MPs/crats/NTs ? AS swap solds/MAs ? lotta examples could be taken ...
    as i tried to explain previously there's no way to balance anything in AO if you don't consider highest stats reachable at different level/title for every professions, including OSB/towers & extreme choices dedicated to PVP efficiency.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  6. #366
    I think that was a general way to say that the tools and their interactions are so numerous and complex, it's foolish to post some specific setup for any profession and say "Oh look, that's OPed, nerf profession please". I have said it many times before .. the 1HB/SA combos aren't OP in PVP because of the stats that enfos get ... so it's rather stupid to think that nerfing NR or AR or {insert random stat here} fixes that issue.

    What's especially ridiculous is that someone thinks they have some perspective that's unique that's going to reveal some fundamental truth that everyone is missing up to now and uses that as a platform to call for nerfs. Almost everyone does it, they look silly for doing it. It makes me sad when experienced players do it. Posting a singular setup, is exactly that. Maybe people think we have missed a trick so they do it, but be assured, that's not secret knowledge. Ownsauce isn't especially insightful in that respect. That setup is common and known to everyone and every enfo that uses it knows it's weaknesses and strengths.

    You might think you can't get balance without looking at that angle. My responce to that .. what balance actually means is not some universal truth. No one has actually said from FC what balance means. IMO, it's not some change where everyone is equal, with similar chance to kill everyone else. If you are being objective, you will realize AO can't be this thing because of it's complex interactions and variations. For me balance is 'tools that work'. As an example, if a prof doesn't have tools to deal with CC, that prof won't get them to gain some equalization over other profs that benefit from not being CC'ed. It's pretty simple for me, because I have come to terms with what is reasonable and achieveable. That might not be FC's exact view either, but it's not too far off the mark ... look how the process has worked so far. The view that considering top stats on every prof and balancing according to that is just not the approach.
    Last edited by Obtena; Aug 25th, 2010 at 15:49:02.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    yeah, that guy calling others "ignornat" or "undergaerd" (with typo on purpose or not, wich is disrespectful anyways) while misunderstanding other's points, whinning/spamming with insultive flamings & ignoring simple tricks (among wich cancelling mongo HP part or swap LE HUD) hilarious
    if u have an enf as u claim u do u should know that the health from mongo is a hostile program.
    thus cant be cancled.
    u used to be able to cancle it and keep the hot part a few years ago but it has been changed since then.
    also once again.... no sane enforcer is doin BS and open pvp with their SL ess up atm and no they dont try to duel NTs with the SL ess up so theres no need to cancle the buff vs NTs since u wont have it buffed to begin with.

    also to ownsauce Kinkstah is solitus so he wont have Wit of the atrox but yeh he might be able to cast his top buffs with only 7 CoNC perkd.
    also i know that he usually has his HHaB equipped and his setup is quite similar to mine.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    it's not some change where everyone is equal (...) The view that considering top stats on every prof and balancing according to that is just not the approach.
    yap i see what you mean & agree you can't rely ONLY on topgeared setups, but that point of view needs to be the basis in a fair rebalance to decide what's upto acceptable or not.

    and also, if not equal, everyone should have strong & weak points, every profession should have easily killing & hardtime profession encounter. in that angle, enforcers weren't the MOST OPed (in all ranges that is), but their strengths (AR/alpha/HP/RS+NR/Coon+BR&mongo/absorb) justified (or were justified by) some other profession OPness for a long time, especially traders & advies that i hope will also get a good trip into the rebalance box, for a more interesting/challenging game for everyone.

    that's just how i see/hope it, i might be wrong.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    I respect you as a twinker and a player of AO Gate, but I will say a couple of things:

    1.) If you can find a setup that will make a soldier in NR 8 be able to AMS V now, I will never post another thing on forums.
    You cannot, but it was more or less an extreme example of say, me trying to post a setup of a soldier and trying to tell other soldiers what their profession can do. That setup you posted has a lot of flaws that would be highly similar to a full AR setup shade, which innevitably makes it limited and inneffective by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    2.) As far as using that setup, You don't honestly think I came up with that setup do you? I got it from a top end enfo who pwns my shade all the time. I can't even perk that guy. Granted, a few of the perks are out of spot because I was making a point that certain things are achievable but that's really what I was doing.
    You should not have problems perking an enforcer with an endgame shade, which is the only shade you can viably argue with when posting a setup of what you claim is an endgame enforcer. 3000 static AR means even Highway+boots of dancing king will not provide enough evades along. If he has towers then blur would eliminate the last possible chance of avoiding perks.

    Shades also have more potential attack rating than enforcers, not only due to a high static AR but evade debuff procs, blur, and ofc the drain perkline. They just lack proper perks aka the overpowered lower def check ones enforcers have that actually makes them viable in pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    3.) for casting in that setup, It would be as easy as R clicking the insta swap nano LE hud. You can even put it in your hot bar it's really not that hard. If you can't do that then don't ever play a shade because I do that all day for swapping spirits+research huds. Just because you prefer to be able to cast it without swapping it, doesn't mean that my setup is wrong, just like it doesn't mean that your setup is wrong.
    Hotswapping to cast on an enforcer is like hotswapping to cast on an NT. You also have a problem where incomps end up making you unable to cast even with a hotswap, which good enforcers are prepared for. A gank setup is very limited and not an example of a well thought out setup that should be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownsauce View Post
    3.) I think your inability to make this setup work shows your ignorance as an enfo. Kink already said he uses this setup and you've praised him to be a damn good pvp enfo (and he's soli so no, he doesn't MR). Perhaps you should learn your prof and stop whining.
    I know this was not directed toward me, but I would like to point out one major difference. Kink is Solitus, the enforcer you posted is Atrox. Kink can cast his nanos, an Atrox could not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    yap i see what you mean & agree you can't rely ONLY on topgeared setups, but that point of view needs to be the basis in a fair rebalance to decide what's upto acceptable or not.

    and also, if not equal, everyone should have strong & weak points, every profession should have easily killing & hardtime profession encounter. in that angle, enforcers weren't the MOST OPed (in all ranges that is), but their strengths (AR/alpha/HP/RS+NR/Coon+BR&mongo/absorb) justified (or were justified by) some other profession OPness for a long time, especially traders & advies that i hope will also get a good trip into the rebalance box, for a more interesting/challenging game for everyone.

    that's just how i see/hope it, i might be wrong.
    Enforcers have OP survival, everything else is just average or below average for enforcers compared to other professions. So yes, rage is OP in conjuction with the rest of the enforcer toolset It was about the only part of the enforcer toolset that allows them to function though, which is sad for a profession.

    Before a perk based comment, perks that ignore defenses with 60 second recharges are still not as OP as Aimed Shot. Thus, enforcer perks are "average" compared to AS (which I think was sort of your point) and are currently not OP but necessary to pvp against others.

    Nerfed Aimed Shot means that the tool balancing the enforcer perks is gone, and those perks also need to be nerfed.



    Also, if I can get around to finishing the thread I am typing up, I will have an extensive thread detailing as much about enforcer setups at 220 as I can. I would like to see something similar to all professions as I think the majority of whines are born from ignorance. I can assure you many of mine were.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Hotswapping to cast on an enforcer is like hotswapping to cast on an NT.
    seems correct to say you can perfectly swap blue most of the time to cast what needed, then swap green if people gank you, or swap red/violet if you get a ganking option. i do this all the time no matter what profession i play so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    enforcer perks are "average" compared to AS (which I think was sort of your point)
    true the dmg of each is average but chain perking 9 perks supposely "locking each other" is a trick that made enforcer alpha considered too strong for too long.
    i'd rather see all perks (1HB 1HE Pierc 2HB 2HE) bumped a little but non-stackable.
    let's wait other documents, but in a context where most alphas will -logically- be tuned down, main special (AS) changed, heals proeminency rechecked ... i think 1HE/1HB along with all enfo toolset seemed a little too much.

    again enfo ain't the MOST unbalanced profession imo, but you know how it works : if nobody accepts to sacrifice some strength, all will justify their own strength as unquestionnable, you end up with crazy amounts of def (+coon !), senseless init debuffs (or stuns), stupid crippling AR lines & unbalanced healing/nuking spams. that's where we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    I will have an extensive thread detailing as much about enforcer setups at 220 as I can
    that would be hell interesting to have this on several professions even, and possibly several titles. idk if FC did such a work to consider rebalance, though.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  11. #371
    tbh i been looking into switching my enf into a purely offensive gank setup..
    i think it will be possible to get around 3800 AR self buffed in it.
    on the expense of alot of def tho but still might be worth it... im gonna try atleast.
    Last edited by Moonbolt; Aug 26th, 2010 at 03:22:46.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    tbh i been looking into switching my enf into a purely offensive gank setup..
    i think it will be possible to get around 3800 AR self buffed in it.
    on the expense of alot of def tho but still might be worth it... im gonna try atleast.
    3800 "self" is also not possible unless you count in procs and also other silly, unreliable stuff.

    Unless there's +500 AR from gear from places I don't know about. Also be aware that "lol enfs have 3800 AR" will become the staple of forum expectations from enforcers.
    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

  13. #373
    Yeh ofcourse it was with procs.
    maybe i should haev said 3500 AR, as it will be w/o procs.
    it will still be fun to try the setup out and see if it works well.
    it will come at a cost of about 300-400 def tho.
    Last edited by Moonbolt; Aug 26th, 2010 at 05:35:59.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    and NTs has more def then enfs.
    Not in the Evade Cl department it seems, cause I sure as hell can't just ignore Shades in any setup. I have to do them the honor of some debuff before I actually can hope to counter their perks usually.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  15. #375
    i cant ignore shades either.
    but enfs with highway and towers and 12m buff might be able to avoid shades in def setup before they blur him.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  16. #376
    I honestly do not mind any perk damage nerfs, removal of SA from 1he+1hb would be great imo, or any nerfs to rage and max health. The only thing that really pissed me off is FC still making us out to be a tank profession and then nerfing our absorbs. Did anyone besides doctors honestly have trouble with absorb spamming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    tbh i been looking into switching my enf into a purely offensive gank setup..
    i think it will be possible to get around 3800 AR self buffed in it.
    on the expense of alot of def tho but still might be worth it... im gonna try atleast.
    26000 max health, 2300 def and you have difficulty casting your nanos. That is if you are still referring to 1he+1hb and roll atrox. If it is a 2he setup it might be viable.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    i cant ignore shades either.
    but enfs with highway and towers and 12m buff might be able to avoid shades in def setup before they blur him.
    Having that, I really can't ignore shades. Infact, I find the best way to fight a good shade is actually forget about def and equip the most offensive items possible as quickly as possible, (hud3 item, xan board, VP ring, AI tank armor).. and pray that their hp goes down as fast as yours.
    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

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