Should we make MA special attacks have set damage?

[DaveDread]

Yeah Hitokage, MA attacks work just fine at lowers, before mob AC starts picking them down. Problem only rears it's ugly head against higher lvl mobs, you'll find that BoP less and less effective as you become higher.

MA attacks / Cluster Bullets / Bow Specials scaling up with the attack rating, just like weapons do? Yauza, would be the bomb! And quite overpowering... it would probably need a complete rebalancing of all these attacks.

As for MA attacks ignoring AC, I dont think engies/other AC buffers should be worried about that. You wont find anything really different except seeing some new animations and a few MA users smiling. All this change will do is some sort of use for the currently useless MA special attacks.

[Keldrys]

These proposed changes won't do anything to 'improve' MA damage. We'll still just stick to using BwT, FoL, and the occasional Shen in PvP since those will still be the most effective... If you want to spend time on MA attacks how about you FIX them first (all of them!)? And how about make it so they always hit? Fling, burst, aimed shot, etc. always hit, but even a 215ish mob will resist a 200 MA's specials, every time. Then there's dimach getting parried, but that's a separate issue.

[___________Kwickkick]

Since every is calling for the nerfing of MA's and MA damage, then I say that since Brawl and Diamach can be parried, then Fling, Full Auto, Burst and Aimed shot should be dodged like a regular ranged attack. Fair is fair. If we do less damage, they do less damage.

I would be perfectly happy with any Crit nerf or MA attack nerf if this happens.

[Courtney]

You forgot Blessed with Thunder.. most people dont think it is a varying attack but if you read the discritpon it does varying damage.. the only problem is by the time you can use it mobs armor class is high enough that you always do minimum damage with it. The only reason people use it often is because it has a high minimum damage and a low resist chance.

[ntrox1]

Following on from Courtneys comment: BwT only works at QL60 and QL200 anyway. My QL60 BwT always, I mean ALWAYS deals the minimum 170 DoT. No more, no less. This is daft.

And please fix the other QL's! I swear by BwT, seldom using the other attacks (I am 63).

[______________Znails]

Originally posted by Ntrox
Following on from Courtneys comment: BwT only works at QL60 and QL200 anyway. My QL60 BwT always, I mean ALWAYS deals the minimum 170 DoT. No more, no less. This is daft.

And please fix the other QL's! I swear by BwT, seldom using the other attacks (I am 63).

Wrong.

BwT works in all ql:s.. FoL however only works at ql 60 and 200...

as for fixed damage.. sure why not.. they already have it.. min damage.. so what else is new

[Mega^|3io]

How about making it so we can use MA Special attacks on grid armor fixers?
~Chris

[locomdenom]

Originally posted by Mega^|3io
How about making it so we can use MA Special attacks on grid armor fixers?
~Chris

The problem with MA specials, I'm going to assume is the same as with fixer cluster bullets, is that they're considered nanos and checked against nanoresist.

It ain't GA fixers, Chris, it's people with real nanoresist. Admittedly, that usually winds up being Mk4 fixers and enforcers running rage, but...

High QL bosses resist my clusters too. I just wind up spamming them until one goes off.

[Bionitrous]

Cluster bullets are supposed to check against Dodge Ranged at 50%. They should always hit. Don't know why so many time they hit for min. I've seen it myself. So I know it seems very similar to the MA attacks.

[DaveDread]

MA attacks checks against duck explosions. I dont think NR has anything to do with it, despite the "attacked by nanobots"...
cluster bullets / bow specials prolly have the same issue. They are affected by AC and damage range doesnt go up with attack rating.

[Cz]

Had a chat with Gaute, and we can't make the MA special attacks ignore armor, or scale damage based on MA skill (or other skill) like weapons do, without a lot of code work. Letting them lock different skills will give MA users an 'alpha strike' of specials, which I think needs quite a bit of rebalancing.

What is possible though, to make it not so boring, is to put the new damage lower, but add in a crit chance and damage. Running average damage all the time is a definate boost to damage output, so what do you think of a new set damage, lower than the one first suggested, and then a crit chance and damage value in addition, to add some variety?

Note that the crit damage would only increase with e.g. every 10 QL, while the set damage would vary with each QL, whether there is a crit chance or not.

I'll write it up more thoroughly, and make a poll on it. Gaute wants it decided very soon.

[Cz]

Here's the poll. Let us know what you want.

[_______O'Rourke]

Am I missing something? Don't both of these suggestions end up increasing the MA's average damage output? MA combat strength doesn't seem to me to need any improvement at all. In fact, the reverse would be preferable.

I'm a 60 fixer, and I regularly group with a 60 MA, and 9 times out of ten during combat he'll kill the mob before I can even get my second or third shot off. I'd estimate he outdamages me by about 3 to 1.

No flames, please. This is an honest question.

[DaveDread]

Fair enough Cz.

For the future thou, consider this scenario regarding MA special attacks locking different skills.

Every MA special locks MA skill for 20-30 seconds, disabling the alphastrike capability.
Then, you clump them together according to what they do. Bird of Prey and Beautiful Blue Cloudless Sky both stun, BoP seldom and BBCS often. So they both lock, let's say Brawl in addition to MA skill. BoP locks it for 30 seconds, BBCS for 5 minutes. Blessed with Thunder and Shen are both DoT's, so they both lock, say dimach, for 40 seconds and 17.5 minutes respectivly.
Do this for all MA specials.

This would make an MA able to use the different types of MA attacks, every 20-30 seconds. Start with a Blessed with Thunder for the melee shield and the DoT... 30 seconds later, the fight is going kinda bad so you need to stun. Use a BBCS and (hopefully) stun the opponent so you can quickly use a treatment/nano lab. You just spent your stunning ablilities so BoP and BBSC are unusable for 5 minutes... but 30 seconds later (the fight is still going pretty darn bad) you could use the Blessed with Thunder again... or a Flower of Life if things look bad.

I completely understand that MA's shouldn't be able to alphastrike using all the MA specials at once, but with a 20-30 second delay, it shouldn't be all that overpowering? The MA specials that lock MA skill for 5-17 minutes are kinda rarely used since, well, you cant use another one.

I know, just ranting, it would be fun thou.

[DaveDread]

Originally posted by O'Rourke
Am I missing something? Don't both of these suggestions end up increasing the MA's average damage output?

I'd say no, it doesn't really increase MA damage output.

Your lvl 60ish MA teammate hasn't run into the AC reduction yet, so this change will not affect him very much. Give him 100 more levels thou and his MA specials will do far less damage then they do today. The only MA specials used at higher levels are the ones with high minimum damage, this change will mostly lead to more variety. If you wanted to you could pull off a Bird of Prey and it would do more then 50 damage. None of the "improved" special attack will do as much pure damage as Blessed with Thunder anyways, so this change will enable MA's to use some of the MA attacks with stun/other effects and not deal a laughable damage.

For a (not very good comparison haha), say that all SMG bursts dealt minimum damage all the time at higher level... you're still doing pretty fine, but everybody are using the same SMG because it's burst has a higher minimum. A change is proposed where the rest of the SMG's bursts are raised, not above, but to a level where you could use them because they sound nice, or the gun looks cool. Uh, kiunda odd explanation, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[_______O'Rourke]

Thanks for the response, DaveDread.

I guess we're just too low in level to notice the effect.

[Czarina]

Originally posted by LittleSlayar
Yes it is a good idea, since there is already a set Dmg. Ql 200 Blessed with thunder has dmg of 450-550. It will ALWAYS deal 450 in missions. Either make so it will actually use the full range of dmg or pick something in the middle. -LS

hehe.. it does use the full range of damage... but when the range is only 100 damage and everything has at least 1000 melee AC, then no matter what the AC always reduces it back to Minimum damage.. which was a flaw.. I agree that they should have a set damage in the center of the range as this will boost the damage done by melee attacks.

[Mega^|3io]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin


The problem with MA specials, I'm going to assume is the same as with fixer cluster bullets, is that they're considered nanos and checked against nanoresist.

It ain't GA fixers, Chris, it's people with real nanoresist. Admittedly, that usually winds up being Mk4 fixers and enforcers running rage, but...

High QL bosses resist my clusters too. I just wind up spamming them until one goes off.

Odd, since I can get them off on Athx when he has 1600+ Nano Resist, but not on a fixer with 1050.
~Chris

[______________Shatai]

AggDef settings?

And is that you always land the nano on the 1600+ NR, and never on the 1050, or just differing chances?

[_________Wraithverge]

am I the only one missing the point of different skill locks?
if a skill locks MA, then oh well, there is no activatable MA skill, just attack.

HOWEVER, if a skill locks brawl??? then MA's can choose EITHER brawl or their MA attack, same for dimach, which would make dimach much more acceptable because lets face it, I've got a level 40 MA, a level 66 MA NT and a level 40 MA doc, and dimach has actually been used to save my life all of four times.... and all of those with my doc who ran out of nano. The long recharge time and low damage output, high ip cost=not worth it

so, brawl has a stun ability, just make something that hits exactlly like brawl, but with a longer stun, make it BOP, and lock brawl for a few seconds longer then brawl.

attack of the snake is just extra damage, not much, but its kinda like the little icing roses on cakes, its just nice to say "look, I made a spiffy!" lock MA

all of the rest, you can figure out the game mechanics, I stopped using after level 50. I've switched to other weapons because dark blue MA abilities in my primaries means its just a better deal to use guns.