Should we make MA special attacks have set damage?

[DaveDread]

I'll quote Gaute here (from the good old MA top10 answers):

"The reason why it hits for minimum, its because they are used fighting red mobs. [SNIP] It goes down, due to AC."

Having high evades, duck explosions in particular, will completely stop the MA special attack from executing. "Target Resisted".

So, I think it's good old AC. Guns have the same issue, but attack rating ups the minimum damage there.

[Bionitrous]

Then I think 'ignore AC' is a very good option and nice call.

[Darkbane]

Yep, that would be even better, might need code changes though, as opposed to the DB changes the fixed damage method would require... but better in the long run...

[___________Kwickkick]

I think everyone may be missing an important point here. The question was not how to make MA specials better. It seems the developers have decided on how to make it better, by setting a fixed damage on MA specials. It seems now the questions is, is this acceptable to everyone or keep the attacks as they are? If this were the case, then I'd rather have this improvement, then nothing at all.

I have 3 MA specials in my hot key bar. I have BWT, BOP, and FOL. I use all three depending at the situation. Generally, I use BTW on orange mobs because I know the fight will last long enough for the DOT to do more than 2 or 3 ticks of damage. I'll use BOP in teams or against red mobs, because I don't want to be unable to use FOL if I have too. Granted, it's not a lot but it does require a little thought.

The reason I don't use any other MA specials is because they are unreliable. AOS always hits close to minimum damage and is not worth even the low MA lock time. I don't use Shen because I don't PVP and 17 min is a long time to wait to use FOL if I have too. The others simply have too poor lock time to damage ratio that they aren't even worth considering.

Changing MA specials to fixed damage basically will only add AOS as a 4th usable MA special or perhaps replace BOP. The others will still have too poor a lock time/damage ratio.

Here are the damages over time with the suggested fixes at ql200:
Attack: damage per cycle: damage compared to BBCS cycle (180 lock time): compared to AON cycle (450 lock time)

AON: 7.5min lock time: 525: 525: 525
BBCS 3min lock time: 550: 550: 1375
AOS 15sec lock time: 250: 3000: 7500
BOP 30sec lock time: 325: 1950: 4875
BWT 45sec lock time (60sec dot): 3000: 12000: 30000
Disclaimer: I'm really bad at math so these numbers are probably wrong, but hopefully not by too much

So with this fix as stated, basically everyone will lead with AOS before using BOP in short fights (doing 575 damage in a 15 second span with a ma lock of 45 seconds) until they can use a ql 200 BWT in which BOP becomes useless, AON is still only good at impressing newbies at BY1 (btw, it's not called impressing now, it's called griefing and depriving xp and may get you banned) and BBCS is still worthless. BWT is still the best overall special because of the Dot and overlapping Dot in long fights or boss mobs and Shen is still good for pvp and boss mobs because of the huge Dot. All things considered, this is not a very good fix.

My suggestion for fixing MA specials would be to add more effects to the different attacks. Everyone uses FOL even with the 5min lock time and BOP has a nice chance for stun. BBCS is supposed to mezz the mob so you can use treatment really quick, but it doesn't last long enough, espcially if there is lag. Perhaps the AON could be a very quick AOE root so you can get a head start running away in cases of massive aggro (would be especially usefull for getting away from missions with high level mobs waiting for you to come out. I think these changes would make more sense than increasing the damage or changing the lock time or bypassing the armor checks.

But it (setting a fixed damage) is better than nothing so it has my vote.

Of course there's also the question of why anyone that could get ql200's of any of these attacks would still be using them, but that's a different issue (Make all ql attacks available in stores or remove the NoDrop flag! )

As for the argument that if MA specials get a fixed damage NT nukes should also does not make sense. These are completely separate issues. MA specials are useable by everyone that wants to spend the ip in those skill requirements and are secondary damage. NT nukes are useable only by NT and are their primary damage. This is not to say the NT nukes do not need improvement or that it should not have fixed damage, simply that arguing that NT nukes should get fixed damage because MA specials get fixed damage is akin to arguing that NT nanos should be made available to all individuals in all professions whom wish to meet the required skill levels.

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Mercatura
[B]The BTW Dhurdal where did those 1000+ numbers come from? lol

Sorry should have been more exact...

Well.... if you want to do the same avg amount of damage with a damage span of 1-500 against 5k AC mobs as a fixed 250 damage then you have to either raise it to 1-1000 for the avg to be 250 or.... fiddle with the min and max values at the same time.

Attack of the Snake
Orig QL 200: 1-500
Damage at QL 200: 1-1000
Damage at QL 200: 250

1-1000 -AC (500) -> 1-500 -> avg 250

against 3k AC..

1-1000 -AC (300) -> 1-700 -> avg 350

more clear?



Grrr... this is just the possible damage spread... not the avg damage done in a real hit serie...

Where is my math books....

[______________Shatai]

People who are saying things like a 1-1000 damage spread hitting 5000 AC will do 1-500 and hence 250 avg damage are forgetting something. If you hit for 1-501, you'll do 1. 502-1000, 2-500. The amount of 1's really lowers the average damage.

For a 1-1000 damage spread:-
0AC = 1-1000, avg 500.5 (500.5)
1000AC = 1-900, avg 405.55 (450.5)
2000AC = 1-800, avg 320.6 (400.5)
3000AC = 1-700, avg 245.65 (350.5)
4000AC = 1-600, avg 180.7 (300.5)
5000AC = 1-500, avg 125.75 (250.5)

The bracketed figures are min+max/2.

Now, let's take a look at current and potential versions of some MA attacks.

Bird of Prey, ql 200, 50-600.
0AC = 50-600, avg 325
2500AC = 50-350, avg 131,9419
5000AC = 50-100, avg 52.31397
With the proposed changes, QL 200 BoP would do 325 damage against all opponents, regardless of AC.

Attack of the Snake, ql 200, 1-500
0AC = 1-500, avg 250.5 (250.5)
2500AC = 1-250, avg 63.25 (125.5)
5000AC = 1-1, avg 1 (1)
With the proposed changes, QL 200 AoS would do 250 damage against all opponents, regardless of AC.

Blessed with Thunder, ql 200, 450-550
0AC = 450-550, avg 500 (500)
1000AC+ = 450-450, avg 450 (450)
With the proposed changes, QL 200 BwT would do 500 damage against all opponents, regardless of AC.


So the change would mean more damage from MA attacks, especially at high levels when the target has more AC. BwT would still be the best MA attack, but at least the others would be half-viable.

[secondkenlon]

The damage fix would be very nice, but the real problem with the MA special attacks is that they all lock the same skill.

This leads to everyone using the same special over and over (BwT) with a few exceptions (Shen for PvP, Ql 60 or 200 FoL for those who have it).

Make them all lock different skills, lengthen the lock time, and let MA users have a wide toolkit of different abilities to use.


(And why are there so few? Where is the defensive stance?(AddAllDef,requiring/locking parry) Where is the chi blast? (Ranged attack, requiring/locking dimach)
Give us more moves, make them quest rewards (and make some of them mutually exclusive, letting us have different schools of MA. . ). Add some variety!


And for that matter, why do only MA users get special skills?

Give melee users attacks ranging from a Scream Of Rage (DoT self, Boost AddAllOff, taunt target) to Barrier of Shining Steel (Req/lock 1he, AddAllDef, lower damage, detaunt) to Power Strike (2HB, -melee init, +BIGNUM crit for a few seconds with a long lock time)

Give ranged users some tricks too. Crippling Shot (Aimed shot, lowers targets runspeed), Spray and Pray (Full Auto, +ranged init, lowered fling/burst/fullauto recharge, - damage). . .

I'm sure that if you went to the playerbase, we could deluge you with ideas. . .

[Nitefix]

Just put BwT back in the shop terminals and noone will even care about Attack of the Snake.

[______________Tedric]

First I'd ask... why? What is being solved here?

If the intention is to boost MA damage because their crit chance (LLTS etc) may need to be reduced, then I think the intention is good. But is this the way to do it?

As far as I understand, this would make MA attacks ignore AC, which attacks my suspension of disbelief to say the least. Armor should have a *huge* effect on unarmed attacks. Ok, this is just a game and not a simulation, but still... "does not compute".

Besides, as many have commented, this would be boring, birnging even more "hit Q and go have lunch" problems to combat.

I think better solutions would be:

- boost the damage the attacks do, especially the min. damage
- have all the attacks use separate timers, so that you would have incentives to use them all.
- add variety, don't remove it

[_______________Ofbac]

Just a member of the peanut gallery chiming in

I’d have to vote that taking all randomness out of the attacks is not the best approach. More fun to have a chance at bigger numbers under the right conditions.

If the special attacks could be weighted to hit for average damage more often, that would be a benefit. If skills such as sense and Agil could improve the chance of hitting for average or better, that would be a benefit.

I would rather see a player with the chance to work up certain skills to get better average damage on the special attacks than see them as a flat damage. This would add depth to the game versus flat damage, which removes depth from the game.


/cheer FunCom for asking the community!!

[__________dislocator]

I think its a bad idea for set damage. My question is why would these do set amounts, it doesnt make any sense. i guess most will argue that they are doing minimal damage with these, so i say fix that issue of the rate of minimals. Would set damage be applies to all classes (ex. brawl, fast attack, fa, burst, ect)? Its a really bad idea for one class to get this. If it does happen, oh boy, a new wave of MA characters will flood the servers....

[Fixcom]

Originally posted by Ofbac
If skills such as sense and Agil could improve the chance of hitting for average or better, that would be a benefit.

For the love of God, not SENSE!

[RVWinkle]

I think I disapprove of this since it further devalues the engineer AC buff. At least conceptually, from what I can gather it usually just does minimum damage.

[Loremaster]

I think if the damage is always the same, regardless of the mob's con and the vagaries of combat, it will be too boring.

Surely the answer is to increase the existing percentage odds of doing more than the minimum damage on a sliding scale from hitting green con mobs (say 90% chance of maximum hit) to red con mobs (say 10% chance of maximum hit).

You may also want to raise the minimum damage, no way should anyone except an absolute newbie be hitting for only 1 damage.

[ragingsyph1]

Bright Blue Cloudless sky doesn't work period. please fix before changing anything.

Flower of Life doesnt work either cept ql 60 and ql 200

you forgot that Blessed with Thunder has a damage range and always does minimum, so an average of the listed range would be an improvement

[locomdenom]

Fixer cluster-bullets also tend to do minimum damage (my current stack, QL180ish, does 91 almost all the time).

See no problem with this, other than being slightly boring. I'd rather see the minimum-damage issue worked out.

[______________Shatai]

I think I know what the problem is here (excuse me for being an arrogant, presumptuous SoB, everyone is at times).

The problem here seems to be that special attacks are treated differently from weapons, in that an increased attack skill provides no boost for the damage from special attacks, like MA attacks and Fixer bullets. It does for things like Brawl and Dimach, but the attack skills don't seem to be taken into account for MA special attacks and Fixer cluster bullets (and possibly other things, Bow special attacks as well, perhaps?)

Example:- BwT ql 200 has an attack skill of MA (100%). The formula for increasing weapon damage seems to be (1+(Attack Rating/400)) * (Weapon Damage). So a skill of 800 would multiply your damage by 3. If you're using a ql200 BwT (450-550) with 800 MA skill, then presumably your minimum damage should be 1350 (450*3).

If you were using a ql200 Bird of Prey (50-600) with 800 MA skill, presumably your damage would range from 150 - 1800, making minimum hits much less likely.

If you're only just able to use ql200 Cluster bullets (dmg 100-800, Burst 650, multiplier of 2.625), then presumably you'd get a damage range of 262 - 2100. Less AC for all of these examples, of course.

Suggestion:- Check the code for these items/attacks, and see what's different. If the attack skill increased damage like for weapons and Brawl/Dimach (examples), then the minimum damage issue would be resolved, and the increased damage range would sidestep the boredom issure completely.

[____________Hitokage]

I've only recently begun playing a couple of old MA's of mine (created last autumn, not played until recent 3-4 weeks) so I might be somewhat out of the loop on this discussion.
Hence I'm not familiar with all aspects of the "min dmg"-problem on MA attacks.

What I've noticed, tho', being in my lowbie situation, is that my BoP (can't remember QL or dmg stats... and I'm not able to check it right now) is far from doing min dmg on the majority of atacks.

Granted my MA is still a lowbie (lvl28), I register high end dmg from my attack most of the time... I would go so far as to say that more then 50%, perhaps as much as 60-70% are in the 150-190 range on a BoP with max dmg around 200-210'ish IIRC.
Thus going for the "avg dmg" solution would be of no real benefit in my case at this time.

It is, of course, not for me to say if this indicates the "min dmg" problem to be a high lvl/ql one, related to specific attacks or specific ql's being bugged.
But if my case isn't a rare one, then the attacks needs to be examined and thoroughly tested before fixing my (and probably others') dmg output at current lvl to an even ~100.

As for the "negate AC" suggestions, I believe that may be a dangerous path to start down... I get this distinct feeling that the implications are too far reaching, especially when it comes to PvP.

Someone suggested separate timers on the different attacks. This really should be looked into, as it would allow for combinations, thus enhancing gameplay as well as giving a slight increase in momentary dmg potential. I train martial arts, and performing one technique does NOT make me forget all the other for a set time
Drawback would of course be that this would make for another alpha... so it could be a double edged sword.



Edit: i think Shatai might be on to something, and I think it is time we demand FC look into their code for the problem/solution, instead of presenting another lazy quickfix that might end up a nerf for some of us

Edit2: Besides, who could disagree with a guy with a face like that

[_______________Selai]

I'm all for getting rid of the minimum damage phenomenon. If making damage a static number is what it takes, then I say lets do it.

On the other hand, Tedric had something to say that caught my eye:

"- boost the damage the attacks do, especially the min. damage
- have all the attacks use separate timers, so that you would have incentives to use them all."

I think putting those attacks on separate timers would be the nicest change, even if they had to add a 15 second delay between any MA attacks (to prevent alpha striking). You'd see a heck of a lot more variety.

Cindi "Selai" Thompon
Rubi-Ka2

[_______________Selai]

Come to think of it, why not make a list? I'm sure more experienced MA's might have some better ideas, but here's what I'm thinking as far as MA attack skill-locking:

Attack of the Snake - Brawling

Bird of Prey - Martial Arts

Blessed with Thunder - Parry (Though I personally think it should be Dimach based, BWT has a huge parry requirement)

Angel of Night - Riposte

Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky - Dimach

Flower of Life - First Aid

Shen - Martial Arts, Dimach



Lets hear your ideas!

- Selai