Should we make MA special attacks have set damage?

[Cz]

We have a suggestion being considered among the designers right now about removing the damage range on the MA special attacks and instead add the average between min and max damage as the new set damage.

So, new damage on all MA special attacks will be the average between current min and max damage. Is this a good idea, or a bad one? Guide us!

I'll put up a poll later, but want some discussion first, so people have some arguments to base their votes on.

The attacks

Jab of the Snake
Now
Damage at QL 1: 2-4
Suggested
Damage at QL 1: 3

Attack of the Snake
Now
Damage at QL 1: 1-4
Damage at QL 200: 1-500
Suggested
Damage at QL 1: 2 or 3
Damage at QL 200: 250 (or 251)

Bird of Prey
Now
Damage at QL 10: 5-10
Damage at QL 200: 50-600
Suggested
Damage at QL 10: 7 or 8
Damage at QL 200: 325

Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky
Now
Damage at QL 100: 50-70
Damage at QL 200: 450-650
Suggested
Damage at QL 100: 60
Damage at QL 200: 550

(Did I forget any attacks with varying damage?)

Let me know what you think.

[Dhurdahl]

Well.... doing a know amount of damage is always nice.... (a little boring perhaps )

This would make MA attacks immune to AC since the already are at "min" damage, right? (Still affected by reflection though)

So indirectly this would be a small damage boost....

I would say good since it removes the "hit for 1 point of damage" hits that one can get.



btw.... can you look at the recharge times also... many of them are so high that they make the attack totaly useless.


Oh, and I love that you ask us stuff like this and the scope business.... it makes many of us feel that we can contribute to the game in a ways thanks

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

Yes it is a good idea, since there is already a set Dmg. Ql 200 Blessed with thunder has dmg of 450-550. It will ALWAYS deal 450 in missions. Either make so it will actually use the full range of dmg or pick something in the middle. -LS

[Fixcom]

Boooooooring!

I'm just an amateur when it comes to the special attacks, so you probably should hear what the real artists have to say about it. All I ever use is the Bird of Prey, but I like the way I sometimes kick really hard and sometimes I just barely hit.

[Spluggorth]

Agreed, seems a bit Boring. are you planning to do that to NT nanos and all that as well? otherwise i sense some heavy Debate on this...

[Vdpmeat]

Originally posted by Fingerman
Boooooooring!

I'm just an amateur when it comes to the special attacks, so you probably should hear what the real artists have to say about it. All I ever use is the Bird of Prey, but I like the way I sometimes kick really hard and sometimes I just barely hit.

Thats the problem, it isnt sometimes you hit for minimum, its almost every time.

[Dhurdahl]

Real damage value after AC has been removed....

Lets say 3000AC... -300 damage

Attack of the Snake
Damage at QL 1: 1-1
Damage at QL 200: 1-200
Avg QL200: 100
New QL200: 250

Bird of Prey
Damage at QL 10: 5-5
Damage at QL 200: 50-300
Avg QL200: 175
New QL200: 325

Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky
Damage at QL 100: 50-50
Damage at QL 200: 450-450
Avg QL200: 450
New QL200: 550


Aka, a fixed value would give all attacks a nice average damage boost.

[Chronita]

certainly the worst part of MA atks (other than some of them not working at all ) is the constant min dmg, esp. on BoP and AoS. Fixed dmg will 100% solve that, so i'm all for it

[cold]

So, it doesn't matter what your opponent's AC is, you always hit for the set damage ?

Bad idea.

Instead increase the max damage on some of those so that they actually have a chance of hitting higher than minimum.

[Dhurdahl]

Well.... then will FC have to decide what AC to aim for.... or compensate for...

Lets say they go giving those attacks the same avg damage as the fixed damage would do... and going after highlvl people/mobs with 5k AC.


Attack of the Snake
Damage at QL 200: 1-1000
Damage at QL 200: 250 (or 251)

Bird of Prey
Damage at QL 200: 50-1100
Damage at QL 200: 325

Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky
Damage at QL 200: 450-1150
Damage at QL 200: 550


Brrrrr.... should those hit people with just 3k AC then they would be very very good...
If they went after the 3k AC people instead then we have the min damage problem against 5k AC...

So if one want's too boost the damage and at the same time controll how much damage it will do then is the fixed damage solution a good way to do it.

But it's still boring

[Darkbane]

I'm not sure I really like this, fixed damage is too predictable when all that is wanted is greater consistency.

Narrow the range of damage certainly (increase min by more than you decrease max though to compensate for armour, probably 2 for 1 would do).

And while your at it, how about looking at the damage range on NTs nukes too?

And some of the "not very good" weapons in the game...

[DaveDread]

First, let me give the Big DD Stamp Of Mighty Approval (tm) for this enhanced communication from the devs. It's always good to feel involved, and in some cases actually being able to bend some dev minds a bit.

As for this specific issue, I sense a connection to the LLTS nerf, it is a rather elegant little boost to the other professions using Martial Arts. It isnt enough, but that issue is best covered in the LLTS discussion.

Any change that will make people actually use the various MA specials is a good one in my opinion. A smaller damage range will only make them do the higher minimum damage anyways, so on this quick glance I'd say yeah, go for it...

An interesting alternative would be to make them ignore AC alltogether. Makes sense from a RP point of view, where a Martial Arts user seeks out a weakness in the opponents defences. Also, it would give the same average damage as your suggestion but give the damage range "thrill" that we all want.

[Bionitrous]

It's a good idea ONLY if you give Nanoformula Nukes fixed damage amounts.

Oh, and my Support Beam should hit for a fixed amount unless it Crits.

How's about you just fix the hitting for minimum damage 98% of the time.

Yeah, and I see what yer getting at Dave. My MP hits for minimum damage nonstop with BoP. This appears to be some sort of skewed bone thrown to the Engineers, Doctors, Crats, MP's who like to punch with their fists and are getting screwed with the LLTS Nerf of everyone except MA's and Ranged users.

If that's the case, I'll give 'em props for foresight. I hope they realize what a large percentage of their playerbase they are screwing. Martial Arts users who can't cast UVC now need something to help them solo and contribute to a team. Only problem is, the bar used to be closer when my Trader buddy Provisioner could get 15% off his scope for his fists. Now he's gonna get 0% crit increase. He could contribute to the team and actually have fun playing the game. Do you suggest that he pick up a shotgun or X-3? That's a sure fire way to get people to quit the game.

How do you un-bork him while not re-introducing extra-uberness to the MA's? Making his specials do more damage and having him raise Riposte, Dimache, and Parry don't do anything to bring him back into the game that every MA won't also see the effects of.

Unless this means that those with 1000+ MA skill will be seeing less damage with this change and those with 900 MA skill will be seeing more damage as a result of both using the same qlvl MA special attack.

As said above ..... booooring.

There's so much potential for MA special attacks to add in the real-time combat strategy so sorely missing from this game. 'Hit Q and forget' is the bane of this game. Deciding which attack to use and when could have been AO's counter to DAoC's response-attacks and chained attacks. As it is now, except for FoL and Shen, they are little more than mini-nukes that do little more than add damage.

[Chronita]

abs right bio, martial arts specials are highly lacking in creativity. if we could get some sort of progression when using them (or triggers, such as using one after a stun does 2x damage, etc.), they would actually get some attention. as it is now, its either BwT, Shen for PvP, or FoL in emergencies, very little strategy there. unfortunately i think FC said they are going to wait until SL to introduce new MA specials, so i doubt anything will change in the short term. i guess we should be thankful for a dmg fix, and keep praying for the interpolated FoL and the BBCS to start working

[Cerber]

Mmm, Cz, I have a question about Angel of the Night.

What dmg range should we expect with that attack, any posibillity to reduce a recharge time on all but Shen and BwT?

I really like this change.

[Krabbus]

fix Flower Of Life QL61-199

[Mercatura]

The Nerf Detector 9000™ came up 0 on this one, unless you fight greys with crap AC.

People with 900 and 1000+ MA skill always hit for minimum on yellow or greater mobs with these particular specials anyways, regardless of ql. Well maybe not the BoP but anyone really care?

BTW Dhurdal where did those 1000+ numbers come from? lol

[odian102]

not an MA, but I have to agree. Sounds Good, but BORING. Its always exciting to see a big hit every once in a while. but the reverse is true as while. Its always depressing hitting for min. damage.


It would be nice if it was like a "shotgun type of effect"
-what I mean is. it does steady damage. and then POW a big hit. Kind of like a crit. But the crit would be set at 10-12% and not effected by an outside crit buffs or devices.

set. damage for whatever special: 230
crit damage: 839 (note crit chances set at a fixed %)

Now you have the best of both worlds.

but what do I know, im a atrox trader.lol
-------------------------------------------------------
oh, sense we are on the MA subject. It would also be cool if MA had a special that stunned the target.
Special Name: Flash of Lighting
set damage: "whatever"
effect on sucessful hit: stun

Sounds cool to me.

[DaveDread]

Let them ignore AC then. Same average damage and less boring.

[Bionitrous]

A good question to ask is 'why' these things hit for minimum all the time. Then perhaps alternatives could be put forth.

I shudder to think they use the enemies DuckExp skill as the damage reducing AC. It's the defensive skill in ToHit for many of these attacks if I recall correctly.

Now a straight random dice roll would mean that you'd hit for average damage over time. Obviously, this is not the case. What is reducing the damage of MA specials?

Qlvl200 BoP:
http://www.aordb.cjb.net/index.php?show=70609

"Modify Health OnFightingTarget -50 To -600"

I see no reason why you don't have an absolute equal chance hit for 50 or 600 or everything inbetween. There's no Armor Class to check against as far as I can tell.

Just appears they have some random number generator issues. But, if it's armor that's causing 90% of the hits to be 50's then fix it.

In the long run, having an absolute equal chance to get 50 or 600 or anything inbetween would mean both an increase in damage for these attacks and it wouldn't be so boring as to hit for (50+600)/2= '325' every single solitary time for the remainder of your character's life.