170 agents needs nerf :)

[Dysfunction]

I have ~2220 AR in FP Soldier on the battle station, the alpha I mainly use(but isn't required against most characters) is Initial Strike, AS/Fling, Conc, Snipe Shot 1, Nano Feast, Fuzz, Lava Cap. I can kill 4-6 players in a row with just those perks while TMS is up. The damage procs, if they fire at the same time, can literally 2 shot a low hp character. I've done it several times to badly geared players and froobs with just as/fling and occasionally I can just straight up 1 shot a froob. It really doesn't require too much when you get ~70% crit with procs and then have dd procs and high AR on top of it... pretty sure agent is just the new level 200 BS king for the time being.
Deaths Gaze is pretty powerful at this level as well since very few players actually have decent NR even with the 120% check.

[Rockdizzle]

About perking the Shade, without Concentration/Frenzy I was running 1.9k AR which is 2.4k AR for perks in sabre morph. I needed both Sabre buff 100 AAO and Concentration up to perk the shade (2.9k ish AR) thru DoF before Blur/limber were also up after which 2 perks were resisted.
Since it was a twink it's safe to say their def wasn't super high since if the Shade can't perk who they're fighting they probably won't win which is why "most" favor piercing spirits to push 2.2-2.3k AR. I think the problem is people see 220 shades as being so OP(decent AR, good evades high dmg) that 200s must also be OP to the same extent which isn't the case.

Just to point out I never used the MP pets in either duel, I had them both on "wait" so neither pet did anything.


I don't believe anything needs to be adjusted with FP Adv, it's "usable" but that is mainly because I can kill fast enough that the flaws didn't hinder me enough. I found myself dieing once in awhile to Solds/Enfs/Agents/2v1s because my CH was still in cooldown and CS and other stuff wasn't up but the same could be said for any other prof with defences/offences down. Losing offence on Agent would mean I either have to stick to Sabre and sacrifice HP/AC/30 sec Heal or go Lizard and hope I can pull off kills before dieing from too much dmg from certain profs.
Agents already lost top lizard due to a misunderstanding where 10k lizard was usable in other FPs(lizard+FP doc) for duels/BS if you didn't zone thus becoming Adv only but since we lost that ability to use morphs outside FP Adv it would be nice to get higher morphs for 201+ even if they are just between lowbie and top morphs. This is a concern for another thread tho

Doubt it is Evac nanos, I have yet to even see a 170-200 Agent touch them including myself besides maybe to get out of root/snares, Getting 15 secs of about 2.3k ish evades at most doesn't scream OP to me when my fixer could perk thru that with SMG checking perks using evade debuff as it sits at 2180 AR self. 1017 Sensory/Psycho is pretty hard to get until 200 so 170 Agents are likely using the +400 one still. If agents lost Evac I wouldn't really care that much tbh but I don't think it's as bad as when Agents got the full benefits of the evac line in FP. 1.6k+ AAD/NR at 220 heh

Concentration could be a possible one as it gives a sizable boost to AR meaning perks land easier and Fling/regs land more. I don't know if it needs to be removed but nerfing the AAO/add dmg abit and adding a higher version for 205+(avoid 201 twinks) or 215+ could help. That or it could get the same treatment as Evac where you get better mods outside FP , something like 50 AAO 150 Add dmg 100 crit in fp and 150 AAO 300 add dmg 200 crit in FP Agent.

I can see why you wanna limit Agents to Assume until 201 but that's like burning a whole forest to destroy just 1 tree, if the problem is FP doc than throw on a heal Reactivity* debuff on all 3 versions(10%/20%/30%) with a forth version without the debuff for tl7s for balance sake.


-Nerfing Concentration line
-Readjusting the dmg scaling on perks (30-35% less dmg at 1 rifle skill with a small 5-10% increase at 3k rifle so endgame doesn't notice any changes)
-And changing Concussive Shot stun to also scale with rifle ( 1-1000 1 sec, 1001-2000 2 sec, 2001-300 4 sec)

Should be a good start without going all out nerfbat. But you can tell me what you think of these.

[srompu]

@Dys
So if you picked a target with DoF up, what's the chance you could perk without using proj magnet or AC?
Is the OP limited to sold from your experience, or doc? I take it the usual sold-killers engi and NT either have other predators or can be kited?
Also, is shadow bullet something you've used yet? Do you have any ideas for toning things down without making them nerfed?

@Rock
Ok, that makes sense. That implies that you could have perked him through DoF without conc/frenzy if you used rifle. Is that right?
Maybe AR is part of the problem after all?

Ya, we could scale concentration. Utter is ~150 AR less than Absolute, so that might fix a little. Total -100, Utter 101-200, Absolute 201+?

I agree Assume seems extreme. Perhaps a healeff% thing at TL6 is the way to go, but that would nerf PvMing via the healpet. FP doc shouldn't be a problem at low levels particularly, and TL6s will use the top version of anything that isn't level-locked.
I'm thinking of %nanocost because it would slow down heals, death's gaze, roots, drains, and so forth. It wouldn't immediately limit the agent, but would put a timer on his survival. Assume in its current form is much to harsh, but I wonder if, say, 30% cost would help. The problem with scaling the fp line all the way down is TL1-4 gets fried by extension. Anyone good at these levels can comment?

Another option could be nerfing Lifegiving Elixir if you're Agent. That brings us back to the CH nerf though. Perhaps Lifegiving Elixir to 60% healing, CH to 20s recharge? That's a boost to high-HP, which you'd see at TL7, but a nerf to low-HP, which LE is good against.

Perk scaling seems nice. I'm really worried about TL7 getting nerfed though in that.
If the scaling could be adjusted without the top end moving, that would be good. However, since 200 Agents are only about 1k AR below 220s, I'm not sure the difference would be noticeable.
Also, the main perks in the alpha seem to be AI-based, which means it would affect other people. All in all, I wonder if we'd be better merely level-locking a perk that wasn't available before 18.7, like sharpshoot or shadowsneak.

Another option is to move a substantial part of CS damage to Assassinate, and maybe making Assassinate 1 second execute instead of 2. Merely moving the damage would be a huge gamechanger at TL7. We only have the one stun and 2s is long enough to fm stim.


We need some top-notch mid-range twinker and pvper feedback.
I'm not competitive at 150-200 PvP.

[RedWatr]

make CS stun available to 201+, FIXED!

[Dysfunction]

@Dys
So if you picked a target with DoF up, what's the chance you could perk without using proj magnet or AC?
Is the OP limited to sold from your experience, or doc? I take it the usual sold-killers engi and NT either have other predators or can be kited?
Also, is shadow bullet something you've used yet? Do you have any ideas for toning things down without making them nerfed?

From what I've noticed is that everyone is perkable except some fixers with certain perks. Not sure if people just don't cycle evades on a consistent basis in this BS range or if they do I don't really notice when DOF/Limber are up because I just Q-1-2-3-4-5 and they die 90% of the time. A few keepers/enfs I'll make sure to use concentration so that I can eat through their HP with crits but that's really the only reason I bother with it, unless there is a zerg around and it seems more viable than stunning the stongest enemy with Deaths Gaze.

I haven't used FP doc yet because I haven't bought LE and don't intend to because FP sold serves my purpose on the BS quite well, which is just to kill as many as possible before I die. I die often enough when people choose to work together but rarely do players heal others or use their CC effectively. NT's are cannon fodder to me if they don't already have NS2 up and I can't recall the last time I saw a twinked 200 engi except for one clan guy in DI.

I haven't used Shadow Bullet yet because my alpha is more than capable to kill every character I've come across 1v1, I do not believe anyone has straight up shut me out from killing them yet on the BS. I might change around some perks and see what I can do to add it to my alpha and see how it plays out though.


Essentially it's the same as it was pre-patch, but the alpha is quicker than it used to be and I can reliably perk evaders so that their defenses are a non-issue.

[RedWatr]

ok, you gusy have inspired me to relearn my NT, because in all honesty, I was not having any problems killing even the best 200 agents with it on BS. essentially, if they wanted to live, they needed mochams, hp, and to run like hell if I catch them first. it sounds like things may be a lot different now

[Dysfunction]

This is a 6 second alpha from my agent without concentration or Aimed Shot(45685 Damage);


You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3925 points of fire damage.
You successfully perform Initial Strike. (2854 AR with Concentration, 2555 without)
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 648 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 7057 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Concussive Shot attack. (3171 AR with Concentration, 2871 without)
You hit Punching Bag for 3963 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 372 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag for 3963 points of Fling Shot damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 5163 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Shadow Bullet attack. (2854 AR with Concentration, 2554 without..... 10% def check)
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3950 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Snipe Shot 1 attack. (3171 AR with Concentration, 2871 without)
You hit Punching Bag for 3963 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 372 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3373 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform Nano Feast. (3139 AR with Concentration, 2555 without)
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 648 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag for 3963 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 800 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 372 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3153 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform Fuzz. (2854 AR with Concentration, 2555 without)




Here is my alpha with Concentration up and without Aimed Shot (51484 Damage);


Executing Nano Program: Absolute Concentration.
Nano program executed successfully.
You hit Punching Bag for 4408 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 1347 points of projectile damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 672 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag for 4408 points of Fling Shot damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 4202 points of fire damage.
You successfully perform Initial Strike.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 7693 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Concussive Shot attack.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 6346 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Shadow Bullet attack.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 648 points of poison damage.
You hit Punching Bag for 4408 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 1347 points of projectile damage.
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 4245 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform a Snipe Shot 1 attack.
You hit Punching Bag for 4408 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 672 points of poison damage.
Reloading...
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3522 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform Nano Feast.
Reloading completed
You hit Punching Bag with nanobots for 3158 points of poison damage.
You successfully perform Fuzz.

[Dysfunction]

With that alpha I can stun 100% for half of the alpha and ~40% or more of the time I can stun for the entire duration of the alpha. Like I said it's pretty insane but I don't see a way to balance it so that 170-200 agents are no longer ganking machines without effecting the other ranges drastically. I'm sure someone else can devise a way around it, but I just supply the info

[Wakizaka]

You successfully perform a Shadow Bullet attack. (28540 AR with Concentration, 25540 without)

Damn, I must be doing something wrong, as I don't have anywhere close to that AR

[Dysfunction]

Damn, I must be doing something wrong, as I don't have anywhere close to that AR

sorry I did it quickly and just acted as if it were AR% not DEF%, so some of the numbers are wrong :< I'll fix them when I wake up tomorrow

[Wakizaka]

sorry I did it quickly and just acted as if it were AR% not DEF%, so some of the numbers are wrong :< I'll fix them when I wake up tomorrow

Ah, thought you had just slapped an extra zero on the end by accident, totally forgot that SB had such a low def check. My bad.